[NF] When Fe & Fi Go Awry: The Definitive NF guide to F-ness (Let the Antics Ensue)

[Tiltyred]

But you grow out of such things, hopefully. I mean, I hope you don't expect people to explain their feelings to you all the time just so you know it's not about you. It's almost never about you. (At least, that's been my experience in my life -- it's almost never about me.) If you can assume that up front, maybe it can help you stop introjecting like a madwoman. That's not good for you, and often a pain in the butt for the other person (ask me how I know that, too).

 

[Amargith]

I wasn't suggesting you did that - I was referring to Qre:us' implication that Fi does that.

K,my bad. Consider my claws retracted

 

[Tallulah]

I have similar feelings, in that most of the stories I can think of, I was in the wrong in an Fe sense. Now, I may have been unaware of the expectation I was failing to meet or how the other person would perceive it, but it's hard for me to put those incidents out there since I really don't feel justified in my actions. In that sense, I feel like the issue for me was "lack of Fe awareness" rather than "Fi gone awry."

I find it easier to talk about failures of understanding, rather than saying Fe or Fi went awry. Miscommunications happen, even when those functions are operating correctly and are being self-consistent. Talking about one or the other going awry seems like a value judgment of the function. The problem isn't necessarily in either Fe or Fi, but in the disconnect between those perspectives.

Love this.

Can't say I appreciate the bolded. Nor was that what I meant. I never do force people to talk or to accept help. In fact, I don't, unless it comes up, then I'll offer, or if people ask for it themselves. Just don't shoot me for asking how you're doing if you're off and being interested in you. And yes, when asked what people can do to accomodate more, I'll be honest..I'd like to know what's going on, so I can accomodate and adapt, instead of being stuck with a feeling that's not mine and with no incling as to what it refers to. But that doesn't mean I demand it.

Here's the thing, though. The way you've described it, it still sounds like you're trying to help the person by helping yourself get rid of the barking dog in your head. It's the person's issue, so as a friend, can you try to help them the way they would like to be helped? If they're in the middle of a problem that's causing them grief, can you listen to them and help them get it out of their systems, rather than mining their emotions on your terms or shutting down and going away? Maybe ask what they need from you? Or is the barking dog so loud that you absolutely can't put it aside and take their statements at face value? It would make me sad if I needed to talk out my problems and I felt like my friend was stuck on making me admit my emotions so they could feel better.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

It's why I literally took HOURS ... yes, HOURS to write the second one, the church story. The point wasn't the details, but I knew if the details didn't logically lead to the conclusion I drew, I would invite endless queries into whether or not I was reading the situation accurately. Trust me Fe users, the church story took 2 years to unfold, and I had endless time to examine and reexamine both myself and the players enough to feel 99% confidence in relaying it as an example.

Ah, and that leads to the whole issue of trust too for Fe users in particular ... some people will feel more ready to trust me than others, just based on our current levels of familiarity.

So, it is frustrating to have to justify oneself, instead of just inviting reflection on the message from the story.

As I think I mentioned, I intentionally reflected on it before responding because I wanted to see if I could catch whatever it is we miss. And even after reflecting, something tells me I still missed the point (sent PB a PM with the response I didn't post because I reflected too long and it seemed too late). Unfortunately, Fe/Ti reflecting has a T default (since 'reflecting' is an introverted act), so no amount of reflecting directed by myself is going to yield the results a Fi user is looking for? Dunno.

Something that really kind of stumps me about this thread is that I actually consistently test higher on Fi than Fe for cognitive function tests- so I'm pretty sure I fall somewhere near the middle of that F spectrum- yet a lot of what Fi'ers are saying here seems completely foreign to me.

Anyway, I know what it's like to spend a couple of hours trying to express something- only to have people still miss the point- so I'm sorry that was frustrating for you.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I personally don't see why everyone's thinking the thread is devolving or getting off track. To me, even when we share our frustrations--especially when we share our frustrations--we get the other person's PERCEPTION of when Fe/Fi has gone awry. Not in the way the OP intended, but we get them the way they look to the actual recipient in the real world.

I agree that tangential expression is bound to crop up, and surely has in our deviations, myself as guilty as anyone! And there's hopefully a great deal of value in that too.

Does it seem reasonable for EW to try to re-explore her OP and bring the thread focus to that? Or does the format of the OP seem unappealing somehow?

@ the green: Is the mental function you are most comfortable with determining the 'most helpful mental function for this particular exercise'?

And @ the red: are you suggesting the key to our self-actualization lies in using your functions? What are the determining factors in deciding the the best mental functions to use here?

eeep, for educational purposes, I will jump in and say (since here I can be 3rd party, not having the questions directed right to me) that these seem like loaded questions, even though I don't think you mean them that way.

They feel dangerous to me as an Fi user; I would be extremely wary trying to answer them, for fear I would offend you. Because my sense is that you are poised on the edge of being annoyed, and you're not yet, but could be if I step in the wrong direction.

IMO, the thread as it has progressed has been far more useful to me than a litany of tightly formatted personal anecdotes about fe/fi gone awry. I'm just not sure (as someone- cascadeco? said before) that when things go awry it's ever the fault of one cognitive function in isolation. To me, that seems like a misappropriation of the concept of cognitive functions.

I agree that's there's way more than cognitive functions at play ... but again, I feel EW does have the right to try to explore her OP here again.

Or do you feel it would limit expression? It sure seems to have spawned a lot of discussion!

 

[Amargith]

Here's the thing, though. The way you've described it, it still sounds like you're trying to help the person by helping yourself get rid of the barking dog in your head. It's the person's issue, so as a friend, can you try to help them the way they would like to be helped? If they're in the middle of a problem that's causing them grief, can you listen to them and help them get it out of their systems, rather than mining their emotions on your terms or shutting down and going away? Maybe ask what they need from you? Or is the barking dog so loud that you absolutely can't put it aside and take their statements at face value? It would make me sad if I needed to talk out my problems and I felt like my friend was stuck on making me admit my emotions so they could feel better.

I'll be honest, it depends on how much frustration that barking dog is causing me. And how much stress and exhaustion I'm suffering atm from other things.

But, if you're important to me, and you're asking for my help, I'll do my very best to listen first, shut up, get all the facts, ask questions, make you feel heard before I go towards solutions (including self-reflecting).

I tend to do that anyways, as I fear jumping to conclusions, so I like getting the entire backstory. Also, I know how hard it is to think logically and solve a problem when you're still emotionally distraught. So I'll be comforting and listening to you first. And usually that alraedy contains the info I need to select how I can best help you out.

I *have* had moments where I was stressed for time and didn't take the time. I am guilty of that, I admit. Where I skip ahead and just give them the solution,coz it's so obvious to me. That always backfires, and gets you no where, experiences has taught me. Still, it's sometimes hard to avoid, especially if there's 100 other things going on. It sorta works if someone is really asking for a solution and isn't emotionally distraught, but even then it's not preferable as it allows you to jump to conclusions.

Also, with Fe-users, I'll try to remember to not chime in with comparable stories to make them feel heard, but actually just say things like 'that sucks', 'that must be hard', etc, as I know they prefer it. I've been mistyped INFJ coz of that by some of those people. It drains me incredibly though as it requires conscious focus, whereas NeFi is something that just...naturally happens.

If I feel it's vital to their personal growth that they explore and self-reflect, I will definitely go there....*after* they've calmed down though and have had a chance to tell me their story. Fi or Fe-users...everyone needs that, in order to get cracking at the solution, ime

Lastly, you talking to me and confiding in me already helps. I don't *need*that emotion to disappear..I just need you to acknowledge something's wrong, so I can reassure my self-doubt (am I dreaming, am I making this up?). It also takes away my feeling of powerlessness. So it's win-win. I can accomodate the most negative feelings, as long as I know their origin (you) and preferably what caused them (the story will tell me)

I do confess that once we get to the solution part and you're unwilling to self-reflect and keep yourself in that negative loop for weeks on end or even months..it becomes very draining. Coz that's where the powerlessness comes back again and all I can do is listen, but I also know that listening isn't what's going to help you at that point. At that point you either need to be forced to face your fears (self-reflecting) or given the time to figure that out on your own.

 

[Tallulah]

I agree that tangential expression is bound to crop up, and surely has in our deviations, myself as guilty as anyone! And there's hopefully a great deal of value in that too.

Does it seem reasonable for EW to try to re-explore her OP and bring the thread focus to that? Or does the format of the OP seem unappealing somehow?

It seems a little unnecessary to rein it in at this point, since we're getting a version of seeing the awry-ness, and it was obvious the Fe users were having trouble framing things in that light. Also, there's something a bit unnatural about enforcing perimeters 60 pages in. I just think it became its own thing. EW started the thread, and if she wants it back to the original thing, and everyone's cool with that, so be it. I don't know that it will be as appealing to me. It feels a little bit like, "Everyone sit in a corner and think about what you've done!" I much prefer the organic discussion.

Edit: Thank you, Satine! That's what I needed to understand.

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ I just know that EW couldn't participate as much due to her work schedule, so it's like she was the gracious host of the party but we've all moved from her place to the pool party next door.

For my role in derailing, I apologize, dear EW.

 

[PeaceBaby]

As I think I mentioned, I intentionally reflected on it before responding because I wanted to see if I could catch whatever it is we miss. And even after reflecting, something tells me I still missed the point (sent PB a PM with the response I didn't post because I reflected too long and it seemed too late). Unfortunately, Fe/Ti reflecting has a T default (since 'reflecting' is an introverted act), so no amount of reflecting directed by myself is going to yield the results a Fi user is looking for? Dunno.

I did receive your PM and have been ruminating on it, because you do raise some interesting thoughts in there, and with what you've just posted above. Thank you for sending it; if you wanted to post it I see no problem with that to see what discussion that might spawn.

But, if you would rather I send you my thoughts personally, I am good with that too - it will take me just a little more time to cogently articulate mine.

Let me know your preference.

Something that really kind of stumps me about this thread is that I actually consistently test higher on Fi than Fe for cognitive function tests- so I'm pretty sure I fall somewhere near the middle of that F spectrum- yet a lot of what Fi'ers are saying here seems completely foreign to me.

@bold: ya, we hear that a lot!

Anyway, I know what it's like to spend a couple of hours trying to express something- only to have people still miss the point- so I'm sorry that was frustrating for you.

You're gracious to acknowledge it, so thank you.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Hey, just had a thought:

How does this feel?

Te / Fe: what you see is what you get
Ti / Fi: this is more than the sum total of the parts

Hmmmm?

Edit: depersonalized Ti / Fi for consistency.

 

[OrangeAppled]

But you grow out of such things, hopefully. I mean, I hope you don't expect people to explain their feelings to you all the time just so you know it's not about you. It's almost never about you. (At least, that's been my experience in my life -- it's almost never about me.) If you can assume that up front, maybe it can help you stop introjecting like a madwoman. That's not good for you, and often a pain in the butt for the other person (ask me how I know that, too).

Is this directed at me?

I don't assume that every reaction from someone else is related to me, nor have I ever done that. That's not what I was implying. I am sensitive and may take things personally when they were not meant to be from time to time, but not to a point where I think everything revolves around me. Quite frankly, I don't seek out explanations on most people's feelings or even need that kind of reassurance.

And yes, with age, even that sensitivity has lessened, as I think Si-usage improves and is not used in an imbalanced, negative way that beats yourself up about the past.

I'm talking about a feeling of alienation - everyone expresses a similar attitude, one which I do not share, or they easily grasp what is appropriate, which is less obvious to me. It's not that I am entirely in a bubble, but there is a bit of an obliviousness to these things and it does cause problems at times. I wonder why I am not succeeding in some area where others do, and because I focus on the underlying concept, I fail to see where I missed the Fe expectations for what is correct. This is not entirely in my imagination - I am not the only INFP who reports being viewed as odd in a negative way by others. Just as people can feel they walk on eggshells with Fi because its values are so hidden & nuances hard to define, I feel I walk on eggshells with the collective Fe, not understanding the nuances of its standards. Even when I think I get it, I still managed to fail. There's a delicate line to walk between observing others to understand these nuances and comparing yourself and then feeling defective.

From the INFP growth page at personalitypage.com...potential problems:

-May be unaware of appropriate social behavior
-May be oblivious to their personal appearance, or to appropriate dress
-May come across as eccentric, or perhaps even generally strange to others, without being aware of it

There are moments in which you become "aware" of it, and it's usually in some Si reviewing of what has been, and yes, it can be distorted a bit and focus on only the negative. Generally, this is not my default mindset, but it doesn't increase confidence when interacting with new people.

 

[Amargith]

You know what I LOVE about this thread? For the first time I feel like Fi is recognized for what it's worth. However *bizarre* or *alien* or whatever it is Fi can seem to others, it wasn't called pretentious, or high and mighty, or full of bullshit.

There were genuine questions about what it's like. How it works. Without those usual sceptical and snide remarks implying that it's a bunch of bullshit and wishful thinking as well as boasting.

Maybe it's not always meant that way and that's perhaps part of that Fe-feedback thing that we're having difficulty interpreting properly, but..it's nice to know it's not the only way this discussion can go

I don't mind Fi being bizarre to people or alien. I have to admit though that it's a relief to see that people are actually believing what I'm saying for once and are expressing the genuine concerns and things they wanna understand better, even if those include critical questioning on the moral and ethical value of the behaviors likely to be caused by Fi. Though there's still a lot of apprehensiveness and perhaps some uncomfortableness going on, there's for the first time, imo, no judging or flat-out dismissing.

There's a bridge. I just hope it's there to stay.

And I hope we Fi-users are extending you the same courtesy wrt Fe

 

[Z Buck McFate]

eeep, for educational purposes, I will jump in and say (since here I can be 3rd party, not having the questions directed right to me) that these seem like loaded questions, even though I don't think you mean them that way.

They feel dangerous to me as an Fi user; I would be extremely wary trying to answer them, for fear I would offend you. Because my sense is that you are poised on the edge of being annoyed, and you're not yet, but could be if I step in the wrong direction.

I've gotten the impression it's best to just be blunt with esoteric, but I do hope if I'm wrong about that she'll say something?

Her post did set off my own batch of crying babies and barking dogs and whatnot- all those silent yet blaring introverted alarms- and it seemed important (if only because, in the past, when EW sets off my alarms I've noticed it usually means she's also setting off similar alarms in other people) to point out for the sake of communication. When the alarms go off- the inconsistencies need to be addressed in order to give weight to what the other person is saying, or the distraction of them is too much to keep following the conversation. Maybe that's why the questions incite wariness though- because they are a result of the silent alarms going off.

edit: and thanks, PB, for pointing out a potential problem. It gives me the opportunity to point out that I do hope she says something to me if I'm being too blunt or something.

 

[skylights]

i dunno satine, recently it looks like we've gone from trying to equally bounce back and forth from positives and negatives of both to "wow Fi users are so selfish". and that's not to say that "wow Fe users are ostracizing jerks" hasn't come up either.

still... F is about both oneself and everyone else. Fi looks inward both at oneself and at others' inner selves. it cares for the inner self because if everyone's inner self is healed, we can have external harmony. Fe looks outward at interpersonal relationships, which both involve oneself and others. it cares for the external relationships because if we have external harmony, everyone's inner selves can be healed, including one's own.

they are the same letter. they do the same thing. they take care of people, both oneself and everyone else. and if we can't maintain that awareness in a Fe-Fi thread, what's the point? we'll end up, rather ironically, focusing only on how we don't take care of one another.

if i've learned anything from living with my Fe dom mother and having a Fe dom best friend, it's that we need to give one another the benefit of the doubt... generally upon hearing the others' side it suddenly becomes rather clear why they did what they did. it drives me up a wall how fast we are (myself, also) to assign negative qualities to others but not to assume that we might demonstrate those, too, in a way that we just don't see. we are each somewhat blinded by our own perspective.

 

[Ivy]

EW is, of course, welcome to participate, and anyone is still welcome to post formatted examples like the OP- but people don't own or host threads here except blogs. The discussion that has ensued seems very much on-topic and it's not necessary to force everyone to change their participation now because the OP thinks they should.

 

[cascadeco]

F is about both oneself and everyone else. Fi looks inward both at oneself and at others' inner selves. it cares for the inner self because if everyone's inner self is healed, we can have external harmony. Fe looks outward at interpersonal relationships, which both involve oneself and others. it cares for the external relationships because if we have external harmony, everyone's inner selves can be healed, including one's own.

I think too it's important to remember, again, that these are simply preferences. It doesn't mean the Fi-user isn't going to care for external harmony or be attuned to and place importance on interpersonal dynamics, nor that the Fe-user isn't going to value and see a lot of importance in inner awareness. As in all things I think finding some semblance of a balance is best; but, I'm also aware that there's the camp who doesn't really see as much value in that, and instead believe that focusing on ones preferences/strengths is of most value.

I also think again this is where it's easy to want to fall into the trap of making mbti really black-and-white. I mean, the nature of it is such that it is a means of describing and highlighting differences - obviously we each have preferences. BUT, I also believe there's a spectrum within all that gets lost in these sorts of discussions -- so some will perhaps be extreme Fi or Fe, with little of the opposite, others will fall somewhere in between. I think it's this spectrum that is what creates so much disagreement in threads, as well as why some Fi users don't relate to certain 'Fi things' and some Fe users don't relate to certain 'Fe things' (because respectively, both have decent access to the other 'F' function).

And of course the ongoing issue that'll never really go away in any sort of mbti discussion - the fact that we each have different ideas of what constitutes Fi vs. Fe (or any of the other 6 functions), and more problematically, that we assign certain behaviors to certain functions.

 

[skylights]

^ well, maybe i didn't communicate my central point well, which is that it would be nice if people would stop saying things like "your POV is so selfish" without thinking about how theirs is selfish too. or ostracizing. or whatever negative quality they feel like assigning today.

i completely agree with you otherwise.

 

[cascadeco]

^ i think you missed my point a bit, which is that it would be nice if people would stop saying things like "hey your POV is selfish" without thinking about how theirs is selfish too.

i completely agree with you otherwise.

Ah, yeah, I did totally miss your point. Sorry. I was just doing what I do (I guess!) and taking part of what you wrote and adding my own thoughts.
Also, much of the time when I'm responding to someone, it's not really addressed to them directly/personally at all, it's more just talking about a certain idea/concept that they brought up and adding my own thoughts about it. I tend to do that -- just broadcast stuff to the world at large.. unless I'm asking questions of the person, it should probably be assumed I'm just in broadcast-mode. lol.

 

[skylights]

Ah, yeah, I did totally miss your point. Sorry. I was just doing what I do (I guess!) and taking part of what you wrote and adding my own thoughts.
Also, much of the time when I'm responding to someone, it's not really addressed to them directly/personally at all, it's more just talking about a certain idea/concept that they brought up and adding my own thoughts about it. I tend to do that -- just broadcast stuff to the world at large.. unless I'm asking questions of the person, it should probably be assumed I'm just in broadcast-mode. lol.

hehe, you caught me before i had a chance to edit that. sorry, it wasn't meant to indict you, and i only realized after i hit "submit" how it probably sounded. i spoke a little too rash and quickly because i was all worked up. i appreciate and completely agree with your points, they're important. it was a well-worded and informative broadcast.

 

[Jaguar]

I think too it's important to remember, again, that these are simply preferences. It doesn't mean the Fi-user isn't going to care for external harmony or be attuned to and place importance on interpersonal dynamics, nor that the Fe-user isn't going to value and see a lot of importance in inner awareness. As in all things I think finding some semblance of a balance is best; but, I'm also aware that there's the camp who doesn't really see as much value in that, and instead believe that focusing on ones preferences/strengths is of most value.

I also think again this is where it's easy to want to fall into the trap of making mbti really black-and-white. I mean, the nature of it is such that it is a means of describing and highlighting differences - obviously we each have preferences. BUT, I also believe there's a spectrum within all that gets lost in these sorts of discussions -- so some will perhaps be extreme Fi or Fe, with little of the opposite, others will fall somewhere in between. I think it's this spectrum that is what creates so much disagreement in threads, as well as why some Fi users don't relate to certain 'Fi things' and some Fe users don't relate to certain 'Fe things' (because respectively, both have decent access to the other 'F' function).

And of course the ongoing issue that'll never really go away in any sort of mbti discussion - the fact that we each have different ideas of what constitutes Fi vs. Fe (or any of the other 6 functions), and more problematically, that we assign certain behaviors to certain functions.

As usual cas, I always appreciate your posts since you espouse balance. Like a jig saw puzzle, all the Fi pieces can be unique and true to who they are while still contributing to the big Fe picture we call society. Is any butterfly losing its individuality to be a part of the overall picture? My comments are to you as well as, 'broadcast mode.'