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[INFJ] infjs and casual sex

laudanum225

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around my infj friends there is this one girl, quite smart, strong moral backbone etc (usually), artsy (a painter and graphic designer), basically fits the description of the infj in every way possible...

i am asking this because apart from her, all my other infj friends, male or female, including me, have a tendency to be flirty but very choosy on whom to date, etc

so, she gets to meet a lot of guys, goes to a lot of parties etc, and will date a few guys here and there, but seems to never stick to one. she got out of a bad relationship about a year back, and is now even looking into casual sex with some of the guys she meets.

i dont understand it. i mean, would that be explainable with shadow functions and her being hurt from that said past relationship?
she used to be very romantic and have a strong adversion to "flighty" behavior like that (she calls it like this herself) but now she doesn't think of it "as a bad thing".

i am not saying that i dont approve or anything, it is just that i havent ever seen such patterns in any other infj friends in my surrounding.
she went through the normal post-break up anger and grief phases (we did talk a lot and she also talked with a few other close friends) and seems to be well recovered, even sometimes talks about a new relationship, but in the meantime cant hold on to any guy. the other day when i asked what she finds about the guys that she dates and eventually sleeps with if she knows that it is not really going anywhere anyways, she didnt really have any explanation herself. but she did say that she readily moves on.

is she in trouble? can i help? should i just let it go and not worry about it? i mean, she is my friend and i just worry that she may be doing something she later regrets.
 

laudanum225

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i am basically just questioning her behavior from the perspective of having casual sex when knowing it would not go anywhere. she used to share the approach of sex being a spiritual thing and the physical demonstration of deeper feelings for each other.
 

cafe

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Might be a phase, a way of working through her hurt. She might regret it later, but I don't think there is much anyone can do until she's ready to work on it in what might be a more constructive way. Therapy might help her work through it more quickly and with less damage but it doesn't sound like that's what she's looking for right now. INFJs aren't immune to this stuff, just more prone to other stuff.
 

Moiety

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I can't pretend to know how other people view it, but if she had strong morals before it could just be inferior Se creeping in. Putting her Ni considerations "into perspective". Or maybe she just gets a lot of attention from the opposite sex and just starts saying "why not?" after a while because she feels lonely or something.

I will tell you though that this world was not meant for idealists and if that is her way to learn to cope and adapting to reality...then it's her prerogative.
 

cafe

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I will tell you though that this world was not meant for idealists and if that is her way to learn to cope and adapting to reality...then it's her prerogative.
Ain't that the truth! :steam:
 

cascadeco

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I can't pretend to know how other people view it, but if she had strong morals before it could just be inferior Se creeping in. Putting her Ni considerations "into perspective". Or maybe she just gets a lot of attention from the opposite sex and just starts saying "why not?" after a while because she feels lonely or something.

I will tell you though that this world was not meant for idealists and if that is her way to learn to cope and adapting to reality...then it's her prerogative.

I think the 'Why Not' piece is true. Also, I know from personal experience that after doing or being a certain way for a while (even if it's your 'true self'), if that's not working out so great, it sometimes becomes easy to justify and rationalize trying something new, and really reaching for or trying to achieve more of a living-in-the-moment mentality...or whatever it is that you decide has been crimping your life or style or making things harder for you. For infj, it could easily be the Se thing.

I haven't personally done the casual sex thing, but I have a handful of times done things that aren't characteristically 'Me', simply out of curiosity or as an experiment. To see if I've been missing something -some other perspective - and also in the name of Letting Go more. I don't see it as an entirely bad thing, and I would imagine it's just a passing phase for her. If she doesn't seem to be self-destructing, and seems to be generally ok with her life and with what she's doing, then I think it's probably ok and she'll probably swing back more towards who she is once she's gotten whatever it is she's trying to get out of her system, or trying to learn, or playing with. Yes, she might regret some of it when looking back, but I'd imagine she will also have learned quite a lot about herself in the process. Not only who she is, but who she isn't.
 

Moiety

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^I wonder if INFJs work differently in this regard. Not about casual sex in particular, but, if a precedent was introduced (something you said you'd never do) would that make it impossible to ever profess the same value again?

As an ENFP, I'm forced to be detached from context and if I'm not coherent with myself I self-destruct and can't go back or I feel like a hypocrite.
 

cascadeco

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^I wonder if INFJs work differently in this regard. Not about casual sex in particular, but, if a precedent was introduced (something you said you'd never do) would that make it impossible to ever profess the same value again?

As an ENFP, I'm forced to be detached from context and if I'm not coherent with myself I self-destruct and can't go back or I feel like a hypocrite.

I don't think it would be impossible, no. For myself, I would look at that interim 'phase' with disgust, probably, with a good dose of self-loathing (at least initially), but would also be able to say I simply didn't know enough about myself at the time, and through that process learned. But through discussions with another nfp, I think this can be one key difference.. just the ability of the nfj to maybe 'flow' a bit more and have identity altering/morphing throughout life, and that doesn't imply a contradiction necessarily. Continuous refinement of ideas, maybe, and I doubt you'd ever go back to *exactly* the same place, as you'd be adding components of what you've learned since.
 

laudanum225

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she did say that there were more important things on her mind right now than being in a relationship, and seems overall really composed and happy.
it is just that this is 180° different from what i am used to from her, and it has increased in the past few months, especially since she considered having a relationship again.
i must refine, she doesnt just sleep around though, it only happens when she finds somebody physically appealing and has a good connection to them but i wonder why she wont jump in and maybe try to get things to be more serious then?

she basically runs away like a scared horse as soon as one of the guys will suggest being more comitted.

maybe i am just in a different place right now, and she seems to have a j going strong onto p, whereas i am very much a j. or maybe this doesnt have so much to do with my misunderstanding of her behavior.
 

cafe

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^I wonder if INFJs work differently in this regard. Not about casual sex in particular, but, if a precedent was introduced (something you said you'd never do) would that make it impossible to ever profess the same value again?

As an ENFP, I'm forced to be detached from context and if I'm not coherent with myself I self-destruct and can't go back or I feel like a hypocrite.
I doubt it. We can do all kinds of weird, contradictory things with our brains and we can turn on a dime from one strong opinion to the opposite. Or it looks like turning on a dime, it can be something we're mulling over for quite awhile or it can be something that experience suddenly tells us in no uncertain terms we were wrong.

And like cascadeco says, we tend to see ourselves as evolving and growing, so we are aware that some of those stages are unattractive and not as constructive as they could have been, but still a growing experience that helped us to evolve and develop new perspectives and refine our values.

You can do something, decided it was not a good thing to have done, and hold a value that says that doing that particular thing is not good without, IMO, being a hypocrite.
 

Moiety

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I don't think it would be impossible, no. For myself, I would look at that interim 'phase' with disgust, probably, with a good dose of self-loathing, but would also be able to say I simply didn't know enough about myself at the time, and through that process learned. But through discussions with another nfp, I think this can be one key difference.. just the ability of the nfj to maybe 'flow' a bit more and have identity altering/morphing throughout life, and that doesn't imply a contradiction necessarily.

Yeah, that's the impression I get. My INFJ brother seems to be like that too. I can't fit that concept in my head though.

I can see myself going through identity "distillation" throughout life...in that it's still the same and didn't change...only was made more aware of how it truly is....but it's not bound by experience. I'm not an SP, so I don't need to learn by experience....I know how I'd feel if I killed someone, and that applies to less significant events too.That phase of disgust and self-loathing you talk about, could last a lifetime for me for example.

Changing by experience is just cognitive dissonance that my brain overcomes by throwing previously-held values to the trash can along with most of my personality.
 

JivinJeffJones

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INFJs who are into casual sex are almost as common as INFPs who are into skinning live kittens in my experience. I guess she's just scared to get into another emotionally-involved relationship given her recent history. I don't really know what I'd do in a situation like that. Run sabotage?
 

Moiety

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You can do something, decided it was not a good thing to have done, and hold a value that says that doing that particular thing is not good without, IMO, being a hypocrite.

That's the thing. I see it in a broader context. If I ever have a son who asks me for advice...and if he could learn only be experience.....it kinda feels like it defeats the purpose of learning all these lessons if the same "mistakes" keep being made.

And we judge other people based on their records and actions. I hate skeletons in the closet, specially in relationships. My way of showing people they can trust me, is via a clean record in certain areas. Maybe I'm just naive.
 

cascadeco

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That's the thing. I see it in a broader context. If I ever have a son who asks me for advice...and if he could learn only be experience.....it kinda feels like it defeats the purpose of learning all these lessons if the same "mistakes" keep being made.

And we judge other people based on their records and actions. I hate skeletons in the closet, specially in relationships. My way of showing people they can trust me, is via a clean record in certain areas. Maybe I'm just naive.

Well, it's not like infj's are going to dabble in everything willy-nilly, going from drugs to sex to one religion to another to being a bum to being a stockbroker... I mean, there will probably be a few little key areas/ issues in life where the uncertainty is already present. In other areas of life they may remain quite solid and unwavering. infj's are still going to put quite a lot of thought into the why's as to what they're doing.... the key/necessity for you would just be to sync up with one whose values ('clean record in certain areas') alligns with what is important to you.

And, re. mistakes... I think we're always learning and will rarely make the same mistake twice. Sometimes we do, but we definitely take everything from our experiences and what we build from those, and utilize that going forward, hopefully with a more complete 'picture'.
 

cafe

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That's the thing. I see it in a broader context. If I ever have a son who asks me for advice...and if he could learn only be experience.....it kinda feels like it defeats the purpose of learning all these lessons if the same "mistakes" keep being made.

And we judge other people based on their records and actions. I hate skeletons in the closet, specially in relationships. My way of showing people they can trust me, is via a clean record in certain areas. Maybe I'm just naive.
I don't feel qualified to really say at least in terms of this area because it's not something I've gone through. I had one short failed romantic relationship that did not involve sex when I was in my late teens. I started my only sexual relationship at 21 and at 40, I'm still in that relationship and happy with it.

I generally don't need to make a lot of mistakes myself, but with a lot of the practical stuff that other people seem to just know, I have problems. It goes back to the idealist stuff. I'm a True Believer. I believed all the stuff about don't do drugs, stay in school, work hard, be honest, money can't buy happiness, etc. I thought if you did that stuff, your life would be good. It turns out there is a lot more to it than that and you can do all the right stuff and still wind up in the projects.

That I had to learn the hard way and so now I teach my children to get good grades so they won't have to take out student loans and how you are perceived by others matters because others can effect your life for good or for ill (even though I was always told that it's not the outside that counts, but your heart).

I could see how an INFJ could hold similar ideals about relationships, then have those ideals blow up in her face and react to it by throwing those ideals out the window completely for awhile while coming to terms with the disconnect. Eventually the pendulum would settle somewhere in the middle as balance between reality and ideals was reached.
 

Quay

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And like cascadeco says, we tend to see ourselves as evolving and growing, so we are aware that some of those stages are unattractive and not as constructive as they could have been, but still a growing experience that helped us to evolve and develop new perspectives and refine our values.

This...and I think that a part of establishing morality for self (INFJ way I guess) is being able to sift and wade through experiences in life. There are things I did 1 year ago that I would never do again, but I had the experiences and was able to establish personal boundaries from them. And a lot of times, something felt right at a particular moment and I dove right in.

I've also come to learn that every meaningful connection does not have to last a lifetime in a physical sense, where I'm always around the person or we are in some deep relationship. It can be a learning experience for everyone involved, and then on everyone goes with their lives having gained a new perspective on how the universe and people work. (or something like that, pardon me, still haven't gotten through this first cup of coffee...)
 

cascadeco

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This...and I think that a part of establishing morality for self (INFJ way I guess) is being able to sift and wade through experiences in life. There are things I did 1 year ago that I would never do again, but I had the experiences and was able to establish personal boundaries from them. And a lot of times, something felt right at a particular moment and I dove right in.

I've also come to learn that every meaningful connection does not have to last a lifetime in a physical sense, where I'm always around the person or we are in some deep relationship. It can be a learning experience for everyone involved, and then on everyone goes with their lives having gained a new perspective on how the universe and people work. (or something like that, pardon me, still haven't gotten through this first cup of coffee...)

:yes: Relate very much to this!

+1 to cafe's post as well. Definitely. Particularly this - I think it describes our approach to many things pretty well:
cafe said:
I could see how an INFJ could hold similar ideals about relationships, then have those ideals blow up in her face and react to it by throwing those ideals out the window completely for awhile while coming to terms with the disconnect. Eventually the pendulum would settle somewhere in the middle as balance between reality and ideals was reached.
 

Moiety

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Well, it's not like infj's are going to dabble in everything willy-nilly, going from drugs to sex to one religion to another to being a bum to being a stockbroker... I mean, there will probably be a few little key areas/ issues in life where the uncertainty is already present. In other areas of life they may remain quite solid and unwavering. infj's are still going to put quite a lot of thought into the why's as to what they're doing.... the key/necessity for you would just be to sync up with one whose values ('clean record in certain areas') alligns with what is important to you.

And, re. mistakes... I think we're always learning and will rarely make the same mistake twice. Sometimes we do, but we definitely take everything from our experiences and what we build from those, and utilize that going forward, hopefully with a more complete 'picture'.

You know that train of thought that holds that kids already know how to live life and that we just unlearn as the years pass? That's kind of how I see it.

"Learning" for me sounds more like "unlearning". You had a vision, and you fuck up as you go along...you start listen to other people, to society, you adapt...you become more "realistic" and less idealistic...you hear the naysayers....you lose faith in your own beliefs...and in the end...you lost what made you different in the first place. You lost your innocence.

As for mistakes, I get what you are saying. I guess, to use an extreme example, it's like : once a cheater always a cheater. I'd never trust someone who cheated on me again...as I think that reveals something about the person's character. It's not like the other person is the devil for cheating...still human...but i don't want anything to do with that person ya know? Now make that a little broader...other mistakes reveal something about your personality too.


Oh and can you explain the bold part?
 

cafe

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I need my ideals to survive road tests in reality. That makes them more authentic to me, not less.
 

Moiety

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I could see how an INFJ could hold similar ideals about relationships, then have those ideals blow up in her face and react to it by throwing those ideals out the window completely for awhile while coming to terms with the disconnect. Eventually the pendulum would settle somewhere in the middle as balance between reality and ideals was reached.

I admire you guys for it. I can never throw an ideal completely out the window.....without devolving into a misanthrope and losing interest in life and becoming bored and unmotivated and fatalistic.


As for learning though in the context of life : I don't get this "constantly learning" concept. Learning in itself has little to no value to me. If it doesn't improve my life in any way. I could go on to do stupid stuff and learn from it.......you can learn something everytime you do anything...but is it relevant? Are you a better person after you made the mistake and overcame it? Do other people think so to? Do other people still respect you? etc

I don't believe in reincarnation or anything...so if I'm learning something it's better to be relevant for this lifetime :p
 
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