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[Fe] What have you modeled your Fe or diplomatic skills after?

KLessard

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I just read Jung's description of Fe and remembered this quote from David Keirsey about the Idealist Child (Fi NFs will probably also relate):

"NF children seem to have a natural talent for relating intimately with others or for what I have called "diplomatic empathy." These children, even very young ones, like to play at being Teachers and Counsellors, Champions and Healers, and such interest in the diplomatic role variants may be inborn, since it shows up so early in the lives of NF children, and will lead to endless practice if encouraged by their parents. Unfortunately, there is in most cases very little modeling of such behaviour for them to copy. Few parents, or relatives –or even teachers, for that matter –are very skilled in diplomacy, so Idealist children must usually learn on their own rather than by taking after a good role model." –David Keirsey, Please Understand Me II

This passage spoke to me so when I first read it, because I remembered being so exasperated about my ESTJ mother's poor sense of diplomacy and how she kept making sad blunders in her conversations and relationships in general. Even making our whole family ashamed sometimes.

I so needed a decent role model to teach me diplomacy, but in a strange way, I seemed to have it in me, because I saw the problem when diplomacy was lacking.
I feel that my attempts to find diplomatic models have formed my Fe, and that the Fe "standards" might be different from one person to another. What have you modeled your Fe after, or where have you found your models if they were lacking with relatives/parents, etc. ?
I see a correlation with Fe but I might be wrong. For Fi Idealists, feel free to expose your perspective.
 
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KDude

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When I was young, the local kids called me "Preacher" (I did not preach much.. I just would try to warn them of stuff they were getting into. "Shut up, preacher!" :tongue10:). I might have not been the best diplomat at times.

Otherwise, and I don't want to make it out like I was a saint, but I think the thing that stands out the most is when I tried to befriend this kid who was a burn victim.. It seemed like a lot of other kids didn't know what to do. His scars were pretty noticable, and I guess it scared them. After school, we went to my house and were playing with some toy cars out front.. and my mom came out, and freaked (It's embarassing to admit that about my mom). She was partly upset at something else, but she chased him away :cry: I must've only been 8 or 9 and flipped out on her and tried to make her feel ashamed about it. I don't know where that came from.. I wasn't scared of her. She was mostly good, but I knew she was wrong then.

[edit] I think instead of diplomacy, there's a mix of empathy or concern in my childhood behavior, but stepping bounds to try to get people to see things my way.
 

KLessard

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I can relate to your anecdote about the burn victim. When I was about ten, there was a tall Haitian boy in my class (there were few black kids at that time in my school). He had failed a school year or two and was older. All the kids complained about the fact that he smelled (probably smells related to the sorts of spices used in his culture's cooking), and he was often made fun of. Even my best friends despised him. I didn't like it and felt sad for him, but I also felt a kind of pressure from my friends and would hesitate to talk to him. Well, we ended up in the same Morale class together; I sat with him in the back and decided to ignore my peers' attitude towards him. I knew I was doing the right thing. When I look back, I realize I did this for a lot of lonely or "different" classmates and colleagues all my life. When you do this for them, people's perspectives often start to change.

I think that my Fe was mostly shaped on the Christian principles I was raised with. I would easily shape it after abstract principles or Bible stories without needing a concrete example to follow.
 
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Fidelia

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Probably a combo of Christian principles, exposure to a lot of kinds of people at a young age, and my ENFJ mother.
 

SilkRoad

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I'm a Christian, so it's partly putting into practice what I've learned about kindness and mildness.

I think my dad is a very good example. He's firm but he also has strong diplomatic skills and he's kind. If I'm ever faced with something like horrible customer service, and I'm angry but trying not to get too angry, I totally find myself channeling my dad...it's quite eerie sometimes :D

EDIT: I think I'm just used to being around a lot of different personalities at this point. You simply have to be diplomatic and adapt if you want to connect meaningfully with others at all.
 

Tiltyred

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Probably a combo of Christian principles, exposure to a lot of kinds of people at a young age, and my ENFJ mother.

Change that to ESFJ mother and that's my story, too.

My dad said to me once, "You keep bringing home these lost puppies for me to feed." He was talking about my friends ...
 

cascadeco

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This passage spoke to me so when I first read it, because I remembered being so exasperated about my ESTJ mother's poor sense of diplomacy and how she kept making sad blunders in her conversations and relationships in general. Even making our whole family ashamed sometimes.

Interestingly enough, I can relate to your example of your ESTJ mother. I have an ISTJ mother and I remember being embarrassed, growing up, in public settings sometimes - anything related to customer service.. so, when we would be in a store, in a restaurant, or the like... and I would internally cringe half the time at the way she said things and what I viewed as very tactless ways to interact with people or convey a message. To this day, when in a restaurant as a family, it still happens. My mom will say something, my ISFJ dad, my INTP brother, and myself will sit there, my brother and I giving each other knowing glances, my dad giving a good-natured chuckle and breaking the ice with the waiter (or whatever)... stuff like that.

Actually I think I crafted my 'diplomacy' by trying to NOT be my mom. lol. And, perhaps I gained something out of observing my father, although it wasn't conscious... he's what I now consider to be a very decent, good, strong human being; although as a child I found him highly annoying and I gave him a really rough time of it.

I so needed a decent role model to teach me diplomacy, but in a strange way, I seemed to have it in me, because I saw the problem when diplomacy was lacking.

I didn't really have any specific role models. I simply spent much of my childhood and teenage years in total observation mode, fairly isolated, so through observation I suppose I learned and decided on what I thought were good ways of handling things, and what were bad ways; what worked, and what did not.
 

Arclight

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I try less to "do unto others as I would have them do into me".. and more like, "do unto others as they would like be to done unto".

It's of course not always easy.
 

skylights

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my ESFJ mom :yes:

and learning to communicate with adults as a child. i was in a hospital for much of my very early life and during my whole childhood felt more comfortable around adults than other children.

i imagine various ethical principles along the way, too.
 

priestessofmars

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I guess I didn't have the best rolemodels around me, I guess I kind of just figured it out for myself.
I can relate to what a lot of you are saying about being kind to the kids that were rejected by the other kids. Actually, I always felt like I was one of those kids. I spent (still spend) a lot of time observing others, I've learned a lot about life by seeing others' mistakes. & It was just always common sense for me to treat others with kindness and respect.
 

OrangeAppled

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I had Fe role models - my ISFJ mom & ESFJ grandma. What I didn't have was a good Fi role model. This left me feeling like I was always WRONG. I tended to guard and celebrate my individuality. My childhood motivations were not of the diplomatic nature. It was more about finding some outlet for my feelings, some way to replicate my ideals in reality, etc.

I was a rather angsty, moody teen, but there were some signs of diplomacy starting to appear, especially with friends (much moreso than family). I think I had to go this full circle of rejecting what I saw as phony Fe at the time and then evaluating my own sense of what is good/bad to accept some of those Fe standards of dealing with people. I had to make it authentic for myself & fit it into my internal value system.
 
G

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"I realize who's helped me and what they've done to help me. Maybe I can pass that along, because many people are worth it."

and

"I realize who's hurt me and what they did to hurt me. I'd like to break the cycle."
 

KLessard

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I had Fe role models - my ISFJ mom & ESFJ grandma. What I didn't have was a good Fi role model. This left me feeling like I was always WRONG. I tended to guard and celebrate my individuality. My childhood motivations were not of the diplomatic nature. It was more about finding some outlet for my feelings, some way to replicate my ideals in reality, etc.

I was a rather angsty, moody teen, but there were some signs of diplomacy starting to appear, especially with friends (much moreso than family). I think I had to go this full circle of rejecting what I saw as phony Fe at the time and then evaluating my own sense of what is good/bad to accept some of those Fe standards of dealing with people. I had to make it authentic for myself & fit it into my internal value system.

I just had a chat with my ENFP friend, and we came to understand that in Fi NFs, Ne is what makes them helpful and compassionate (open-mindedness and respect) while Fe will take part in it for NFJs.
It has to be true, because SFPs don't have that much empathy, and their Fi can be somewhat egocentric at times.
 
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OrangeAppled

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I just had a chat with my ENFP friend, and we came to understand that in Fi NFs, Ne is what makes them helpful and compassionate (natural, strong inner values of loyalty and integrity) while Fe will take part in it for NFJs.
It has to be true, because SFPs don't have that much empathy, and their Fi can be somewhat egocentric at times.

Ne is how I make the connections between how I feel, my ideals and values, and the world. It's how I see other perspectives, so my feeling can be applied metaphorically and I grasp feelings I've never even had. I have to be careful not to underestimate real experience, however.

I don't see SFPs as non-empathetic at all. I just see them as more experienced focused, which can make them less understanding in situations they are not familiar with, but very good in situations they are familiar with, especially when it comes to providing practical solutions.
 

KLessard

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I just see them [SFPs] as more experience-focused, which can make them less understanding in situations they are not familiar with, but very good in situations they are familiar with, especially when it comes to providing practical solutions.


True.
But I have sometimes seen them act and speak in ways that showed how only their own feelings applied and they were blind to others' feelings or wishes. I have never seen NFPs doing this. My ENFP friend had noticed the same thing, and she was annoyed about it.

Here's an example and I've had similar stories happening to me and close relations many times. My family was supposed to go apple-picking with my ISFP niece last fall. She had manifested the wish to come with us when we'd talked about it, and we waited to go on a day she would be free. On the apple-picking day, we waited for her and she never came to join us. So we ended up going without her. She didn't call to explain or anything. Afterwards, we found out she had decided to spend the afternoon with friends. In my opinion, this flakiness is Fi-related. The SFP doesn't feel like going anymore, has changed his mind or has found something more interesting to do at the moment. He goes for it, and doesn't consider how disrespectful this can be for the people who were waiting and had done what they could to accomodate him.

On another note: my pastor's wife is ESFP and she has often said to me she isn't a compassionate person. She can't stand whiny people. SFPs think it is useless to wallow in sad feelings, and you must move on.
 

KDude

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ESFPs would dish it out like that sometimes (I think it's Te). ISFPs are on the optimistic end, but I don't think they do that.. they're mostly quiet.

On a sidenote, I find that ESFJs dwell on sad things as much as ENFJs. Although an ENFJ and myself can vent to each other and sometimes attribute big importance to small stuff. Where an event becomes an examination about people or life in general. ESFJs might vent about the small stuff and keep it at that (not that I think that makes it any less important..it's all the same thing.. they deserve an ear too ).
 

KLessard

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I had Fe role models - my ISFJ mom & ESFJ grandma. What I didn't have was a good Fi role model. This left me feeling like I was always WRONG.

That's very interesting. My ENFP friend also shared with me how she felt that her SJ relatives' Fe was phony and inconsiderate.

In my case, my whole family uses Fi. My mother is ESTJ, my late father was INFP, my sister is ENFP and my big brother ISTJ. I sometimes felt hurt at how everything was filtered through their own feelings and wishes (this applies to the STJs, the NFPs didn't make me feel that way), and very rare attempts were made at trying to understand me or what I needed or wished. My needs and wishes were different from theirs, but they didn't seem to care. And being INFJ, communicating those needs was difficult, and when I tried and objected, my mother punished me for being rebellious.
When this happened, I felt so bad because it made me feel selfish for wanting to have my perspective considered as well.
 
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Noon

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Here's an example and I've had similar stories happening to me and close relations many times. My family was supposed to go apple-picking with my ISFP niece last fall. She had manifested the wish to come with us when we'd talked about it, and we waited to go on a day she would be free. On the apple-picking day, we waited for her and she never came to join us. So we ended up going without her. She didn't call to explain or anything. Afterwards, we found out she had decided to spend the afternoon with friends. In my opinion, this flakiness is Fi-related. The SFP doesn't feel like going anymore, has changed his mind or has found something more interesting to do at the moment. He goes for it, and doesn't consider how disrespectful this can be for the people who were waiting and had done what they could to accomodate him.

On another note: my pastor's wife is ESFP and she has often said to me she isn't a compassionate person. She can't stand whiny people. SFPs think it is useless to wallow in sad feelings, and you must move on.

I truly believe a person should be free to change as 'the spirit' moves them. I dislike making promises, [generally] speaking in absolutes, or having to decide on anything until it's happening in the actual moment. But what actually keeps me from following all of my impulses at the expense of others happens to be Fi. I'll scold myself for being too selfish and possibly hurting others, because both of those things are against my values. I'd have no choice but to suck it up and go.

Two ESFPs I know are the same way; very optimistic, very happy-go-lucky, short memory, hate to be brought down by 'whiners' and pessimists. On the other hand, so are several of the xSFJs I know. I'm the only one who doesn't mind dealing with people who are less than very positive and forward-moving.

It has to be true, because SFPs don't have that much empathy, and their Fi can be somewhat egocentric at times.

I will concede to the bolded, but I consider myself very empathetic, almost to a fault. I simply don't go out of my way to help and be involved with others unless I'm super stressed.


Sorry for crashing the thread, by the way. :unsure:
 

KLessard

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I simply don't go out of my way to help and be involved with others unless I'm super stressed.

I've often wanted to ask SPs: "What does sacrifice mean to you?"

I suppose that NFs' view of empathy isn't only about feeling what the other is feeling. What are you doing about it? But the dictionary's definition is limited to the feeling itself.
 

KLessard

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But what actually keeps me from following all of my impulses at the expense of others happens to be Fi.

Can you tell us more about this?
And what would make the impulses irresistible? Se?
 
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