[INFJ] Hate an INFJ? Tell us why!

[Zarathustra]

Unfortunately you resort to attacking when someone disagrees with you. I loathe to call people immature because it's the last resort in an argument when one (you included, don't want to be passive aggressive) can't think of anything else to say and are backed into a corner.

I am self-aware, but of course it is a learning process. Since you don't know me, nor I you, you may not want to make judgments like that...

This has gotten off topic though and I suppose if you'd like to attack me further feel free to pm and not take up space here.

:zzz:

 

[priestessofmars]

I'd prefer for them to be honest -- not feeling aggression but trying to act as if they don't.

If they weren't actually feeling aggression, then I would have no problem with them behaving in a calm or detached manner.
I'd add that there's something missing in that definition, that other more precise definitions would capture.

I bolded that part because, at least in reference to what I was saying earlier... um, thats what I meant. um.. what if what you perceive as "passive-agressiveness" is someone who does not actually feel aggressive but rather feels attacked or cornered and is trying to defend themselves the only way they feel they can? thats not dishonest. just because they're not aggressive doesn't mean they're dishonest. maybe they're being defensive, but there is no reason for you to dislike their behavior because thats just how they react, and its not dishonest at all.

 

[garbage]

Shouldn't we all not want to be wrong?

Isn't that more or less the same as trying to attain such accuracy in our perspective that it would rightfully be called "the truth"?

Sort of. Having one's perspective 'be right' by actually attempting to match reality is completely different than having one's perspective 'be right' because he/she has convinced himself that he/she is right and refuses to take in evidence to the contrary.

To the extent that one ignores evidence that doesn't match his/her perspective, he/she's doing the latter. I'd also classify attempting to push one's perspective as the latter. There might be some difference--I don't know.

I agree with wanting to get at 'the truth' of matters (however that's defined), but I think we should be careful and mindful of that latter approach to 'being right.'



I honestly can't make a judgment call as to what's going on in this thread, though, because I get all :zzz: when discussions get all insulting

 

[Zarathustra]

Sort of. Having one's perspective 'be right' by actually attempting to match reality is completely different than having one's perspective 'be right' because he/she has convinced himself that he/she is right and refuses to take in evidence to the contrary.

To the extent that one ignores evidence that doesn't match his/her perspective, he/she's doing the latter. I'd also classify attempting to push one's perspective as the latter. There might be some difference--I don't know.

I agree with wanting to get at 'the truth' of matters (however that's defined), but I think we should be careful and mindful of that latter approach to 'being right.'

Good. You got my point.

There's "might is right" and "right is might".

Unfortunately, there's actually 4 interpretations to those two statements, as causality of "rightness" or "mightness" could run either forward or backward in the construction, but, assuming the former (that causality of meaning runs forward), then we're left with just two interpretations.

Each interpretation has truth to it, depending on what you're discussing and what point you're trying to make.

What I can assure you of, however, and as anyone who's actually followed my posting behavior thoroughly and with comprehension can attest, I am all about the latter.

I could really give two shits about arguing an untrue perspective solely out of a morbid desire to dominate.

I am, however, very much about attaining such a level of truth in my perspective that I am willing to domineer over lesser perspectives, unless or until new information is brought to light that necessitates a reconstruction of my perspective.

I honestly can't make a judgment call as to what's going on in this thread, though, because I get all :zzz: when discussions get all insulting

What's happened is that I made a very blunt, harsh criticism (on purpose, and for effect) of INFJ's problematic behaviors, and some INFJs have gotten a bit butt hurt about it.

Others, meanwhile, have not.

 

[Zarathustra]

I bolded that part because, at least in reference to what I was saying earlier... um, thats what I meant. um.. what if what you perceive as "passive-agressiveness" is someone who does not actually feel aggressive but rather feels attacked or cornered and is trying to defend themselves the only way they feel they can? thats not dishonest. just because they're not aggressive doesn't mean they're dishonest. maybe they're being defensive, but there is no reason for you to dislike their behavior because thats just how they react, and its not dishonest at all.

I can see what you're getting at: defensive vs. aggressive.

The truth is: sometimes people are both, other times they are being overly defensive, and other times they are not being defensive at all, they are simply being aggressive.

In the circumstances where these three things are not happening, then what you've described may be the case (there might be other possibilities I haven't though of).

 

[garbage]

Good. You got my point.

There's "might is right" and "right is might".

Unfortunately, there's actually 4 interpretations to those two statements, as causality of "rightness" or "mightness" could run either forward or backward in the construction, but, assuming the former (that causality of meaning runs forward), then we're left with just two interpretations.

Each interpretation has truth to it, depending on what you're discussing and what point you're trying to make.

I agree with the latter. But doesn't "might is right" imply that might causes right, and vice versa for the other statement?

I am, however, very much about attaining such a level of truth in my perspective that I am willing to domineer over lesser perspectives, unless or until new information is brought to light that necessitates a reconstruction of my perspective.

Good.

What's happened is that I made a very blunt, harsh criticism (on purpose, and for effect) of INFJ's problematic behaviors, and some INFJs have gotten a bit butt hurt about it.

Others, meanwhile, have not.

Oh, and I get the implication.

But what effect were you going for? Being overly brash simply dissuades some people from wanting to discuss anything further in the 'idea-space.' It sounds like an overly emotional and visceral response, which causes even more overly emotional responses in turn. That's never pretty or productive.

They give up not because of the worth of your ideas or theirs, but simply because they don't want to deal with disagreeable people or disagreeable mentalities that connote a lack of respect. Rather than allowing ideas to get out there, that mentality shuts down the discussion of ideas because people don't want to respond to it.

Maybe brashness stimulates the formulation of ideas in some people. But it seems to me that it can't be considered 'winning' when people give up for the 'wrong' reasons.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Yeah, I do that, too. :/ But even though I won't forget anything, I usually use a rule that I should let go of anything someone said/did before one year ago. Because they might have changed or been sorry about it if I brought it up. Unless I think they haven't changed for the better at all. Then anything they've said/done is fair game. :/

'A year ago' ehhh? That's very magnanimous of you.

Let me get a hold of you. My P will get your J to submit in no time.

 

[You]

I hate that I dont know if I've met one yet...

 

[Amargith]

Wow.

WTF happened here?

Ok, consider my post in this thread revoked. I will not be part of this kinda 'polite' mudslinging.

I posted what I did as an answer to the OP and as genuine constructive criticism...not as an attack, nor will I stand for my post being taken that way or used in that way.

 

[Jaguar]

Wow.

WTF happened here?

 

[Random Ness]

'A year ago' ehhh? That's very magnanimous of you.

Let me get a hold of you. My P will get your J to submit in no time.

Is it so wrong to feel hurt by something someone does? And would you rather me never let go of anything you do? :/

Perhaps what I mean by not letting things go is muddling things up a little. I'd need a concrete example to explain further.


Also if you have a problem with my comment, then just say you think I'm not being magnanimous, you don't have to be sarcastic. :/

 

[babyaspirin]

My Two Cents

The ironic thing is that by continuing this discussion as long as you have, you are proving my point, and disproving yours. See, at least I'm honest about wanting my perspective to dominate. You, on the other hand, aren't even honest to yourself about it.

Hello Zarathustra, I am particularly struck by the interaction between you and aquarelle (think that was her name).

INFPs do not seem to like the idea of judging others. It rubs them the wrong way somehow. Probably because they tend to "live and let live, unless a value is threatened," blah, blah, blah. Perhaps she is an INFP, in which case, you should stop being mean to her.

INFJs on the other hand can almost make a living from judging others (self-deprecating humour here).

I suppose that there are INFJs who also do not approve of judging. I blame the cultural demand that says "no one should EVER judge anyone else for anything whatsoever." LOL

I think that this comes from a misinterpretation of the bible verse quoted earlier. I believe that verse means that one should not judge another in a hypocritical way, i.e. when one does the same thing that they are accusing the other of doing!

I don't think that we would get very far in life if we did not exercise good judgement about people, or things for that matter. Perhaps what is really meant by "judgement" in this discussion is that we shouldn't make judgements based on too little evidence. That is understandable. We can only base our judgements on what people say or do. Beyond that, lies a mystery, unless there are any mind readers out there.

Regarding the passive aggressive issue. Personally, I don't see that as a trait in myself. When I am aggressive, there is no doubt about it! Again, I think that this may be more of an INFP than an INFJ weakness (no offence to all the lovely INFPs out there, and sorry to pick on you twice in this reply). I say this because they tend to be more unwilling to be direct with people, which sometimes manifests as aggression that is "under the radar."

As far as a lot of the rest of this thread, yah, I can see some pretty unattractive things that INFJs can do from time to time. I find it all very enlightening however, and the Nazi/Jesus emoticons were hilarious, shame on you for making me violate my own moral codes and laugh at them.

It is good to hear all of these things because I believe in being as honest with myself as I can---the unexamined life is not worth living!

 

[tortoise]

I had an INFJ for a best friend for the longest time. He controlled our friendship up to the point where I had "filled all the requirements" (as he told me later) for starting a relationship. However, romance with him only lasted a week, because one night I got angry at him for watching TV and ignoring me while I was talking to him on the phone, and I hung up. I called back and he told me it was over.

Some things I noticed about him: He always insisted on how romantic he was. He watched love movies all the time. He talked about having romantic dates with his wife once he married. Unfortunately, it was all talk. The relationship was as about as romantic as a concrete wall: He told me what he needed me to be, and until I was it, he would consider me a failure.

He said things like:
How he liked girls as skinny as Keira Knightly, and how nice it was that I was that skinny, but he didn't want me gaining any weight.
How he wanted me to wear these kinds of clothes and if it was against my standards or I didn't like them, that was too bad. He also would say how some of my clothes were ugly on me.
How my eyes were greenish, which was nice, but his favorite color for eyes were silver.
How I couldn't get tan in the summer because he liked white skin and my skin wasn't white enough.

I don't mean to sound derogatory to INFJ's, this was just my experience with one. I am very wary of talk-romantic men.

And honestly, I believe he was psychologically depressed, and he wasn't afraid of dragging me down with him. I was so naive at that time (and it was my first "relationship") that I was blind to the fact that he was controlling me. I was like his puppy. I would do anything for him.

Ok I'm starting to get a little teary-eyed and sick to the stomach. I hate thinking about some of the things he said to me.

In my last relationship I think she was INFJ. She was like this. She wanted to control everything about the relationship. If she wasn't in control she sulked. The final straw was when she started trying to control my relationship with my daughter. That's crossing the line.

I found her positive INFJ qualities very attractive and admirable but it was the controlling that killed things off for me.

 

[mochajava]

Excessive control is really negative in any relationship. I feel that I can work around so many awful qualities if I can negotiate with that person, and they don't need to control me to feel okay about themselves.

 

[Goosebump]

I have an INFJ roommate.

She can be quite judgmental about people. And the next thing I know, I find her doing the exact same thing. She knows she does this however, and told me once how she hates it when people say they don't like hypocritical people because everyone is hypocritical one way or another.

She admits she's very anal about her routine, organizing, and what's already established. Sometimes I would try to get her to loosen up and not trying to be too much of a perfectionist, but she says she can't. Introducing new things to her isn't so easy either as she prefers to stick to what she already knows or has.

She's really entertaining and manages to make me laugh a lot of times. However, she can talk a bit too much and at times doesn't know when to stop. So even though I look dead tired and obviously not that interested, she would go on talking about her favorite shows/artists/whatever.

But overall, we enjoy each other companies and rarely have confrontations (these tend to be the passive-aggressive type anyway). I love having her as a roommate and as a close friend.

 

[tortoise]

I have an INFJ roommate.

She can be quite judgmental about people. And the next thing I know, I find her doing the exact same thing. She knows she does this however, and told me once how she hates it when people say they don't like hypocritical people because everyone is hypocritical one way or another.

She admits she's very anal about her routine, organizing, and what's already established. Sometimes I would try to get her to loosen up and not trying to be too much of a perfectionist, but she says she can't. Introducing new things to her isn't so easy either as she prefers to stick to what she already knows or has.

She's really entertaining and manages to make me laugh a lot of times. However, she can talk a bit too much and at times doesn't know when to stop. So even though I look dead tired and obviously not that interested, she would go on talking about her favorite shows/artists/whatever.

But overall, we enjoy each other companies and rarely have confrontations (these tend to be the passive-aggressive type anyway). I love having her as a roommate and as a close friend.

I didn't know my ex-girlfriend moved to America and into your room! Odd, as I see her daughter around school ...

 

[Thalassa]

Seems more like an ISFJ. Actually, he sounds like a jerk.

The thing that I absolutely hate about myself is a couple of unfortunate stalking incidents in the past. Thankfully, no restraining orders

I totally agree that her friend sounds ISFJ. I was thinking that while I was reading her post.

 

[mrcockburn]

WARNING: Many generalities follow, all based on a few irritating individuals.


They drive me up the fucking WALL. :steam:

The ones I know wouldn't get OFF my ass about being "organized" and "orderly". So fucking anal that they waste more time bitching about neatness/tidiness than the time that such orderliness would save.

Really defeats the purpose. My boss has a fucking coronary attack if I have a scatter of papers on my desk. Guess what fruit loop, IT'S WORK I'M DOING FOR YOU. Maybe I ought to just dick around on Facebook all day. My desk would be real clean then!

And a professor...this was in a writing class where we had to write one-sentence responses to her ridiculous poetry (that's another thing, they're so BIASED, whether it's people they like or what they choose to teach, etc)...but they had to be typed! ONE FUCKING SENTENCE. Bye bye tree, hello waste of ink and printing cost! How does it NOT look ridiculous to her when she receives blank papers with 10 little words on it? WTF. And she didn't accept it handwritten and did NOT accept late work. Fine, I'm fine with not accepting late work, but to reject it just because I didn't drive 10 miles to Kinko's to print a fucking sentence? You'll be writing your own sad poetry when you find all kinds of nasty reviews on RateMyProfessors, to the school department, to peers, etc. And hopefully get fired.

And then if you're not as neurotic/OCD as they are, they TAKE IT PERSONALLY and sniffle about you being insensitive/inconsiderate.

Oh, and that brings me to another point - they will STOP EVERYTHING to cater to every goddamn MORON just to be nice. My boss has criticized the way I wrote memos/letters, saying I'm too curt/businesslike. Am I supposed to be writing LOVE LETTERS to our incompetent IT guy while rebuking him?

Whew.

Ehhh my GAWD. I've been a royal bitch all day. I REALLY need to hurry up and get back to finishing my studying so I can finally go out for a good run. :workout: :steam: :steam: :steam:

 

[Aquarelle]

I can honestly say I don't think I've ever harped on anyone about not being organized. I like being organized myself, but I'm not always. Couldn't care less if other people are.

 

[Aquarelle]

I do like my schedule to be organized, though.