[MBTI General] People who unload on you and don't understand...

[prplchknz]

balls are metaphysical, I'm a female aswell damnit!! don't you people know growing balls=being able to dish out shit and take it aswell. not worrying how the person feels in the moment but rather the long run

 

[mochajava]

The exchange about balls literally made me laugh out loud... and yes, metaphorical balls. A friend used to tell me, "you have honorary balls". So all the intangible characteristics of cohones were mine

 

[SilkRoad]

balls are metaphysical, I'm a female aswell damnit!! don't you people know growing balls=being able to dish out shit and take it aswell. not worrying how the person feels in the moment but rather the long run

Yes, I do know about metaphorical balls. I was just being difficult. (I do prefer the expression "strap on a pair" to "growing some". It also seems more appropriate when you're female.)

I suppose it's fair to say I don't have any. Or when I'm dealing with other people, I'm trying so hard to not hurt either them or myself that sometimes it's counter-productive. Tough love is not my speciality. But the whole school of thought that cutting such people loose, both for your own self-preservation and because it might help them wake up to their own situation and how they're behaving, has a great deal of merit. So, maybe I do need to strap on a pair.

As far as the ESFP or whatever he is, I had mentioned that I might see him over the weekend in a large social group. I ended up not going to the BBQ I was invited to, partly because I'm kind of crazed with packing up my apartment at the moment, partly because I didn't feel like dealing with the hassle and awkwardness it might entail. I sent a private message on Facebook to the host of the BBQ saying I couldn't make it because of packing etc, sorry but maybe next time etc etc.

Later that day she posted a status update on FB about the BBQ. I commented and again said sorry I couldn't make it and hoped we could catch up another time. (I didn't hear back from her at all, but we're not particularly close so it didn't bother or surprise me.) The next day when I checked FB, the ESFP had posted right under my comment saying "thanks babe! I had sooooo much fun! It was such a great night!"

maybe I'm just paranoid but my reaction was...wow, you're quite a little bitch aren't you? (I didn't post that, almost wish I had!) It just seemed like he was making a point of how much fun he'd had with these friends (who he'd been distancing himself from until recently, and complaining to me about them) and without me there. I was both hurt and angry, I must say. Maybe he didn't even think about it but if it was deliberate, it was pretty mean considering how very careful I've been to reassure him of my continued friendship and that I wanted to make efforts to sustain the friendship. Perhaps he was only interested in it as long as I was making myself available as the on-call therapist.

It's just another indication that I need to detach. I've discussed this situation with various people, mostly in the abstract, and also with one close friend who knows the ESFP as well and knows about the whole situation. Everyone says things like "you can't save people who won't help themselves...people like that are negative and exhausting to be around...if you step away it might actually help them sort themselves out...he's unstable, immature and confused."

So, yeah. But it all feels rather unpleasant and sad.

 

[Onceajoan]

But the whole school of thought that cutting such people loose, both for your own self-preservation and because it might help them wake up to their own situation and how they're behaving, has a great deal of merit. So, maybe I do need to strap on a pair.

Yeah. I've done that with three close friends over the past couple of years. It wasn't easy, but necessary, as you said, for my own self preservation. I still can't help thinking I've abandonned them.

Later that day she posted a status update on FB about the BBQ. I commented and again said sorry I couldn't make it and hoped we could catch up another time. (I didn't hear back from her at all, but we're not particularly close so it didn't bother or surprise me.) The next day when I checked FB, the ESFP had posted right under my comment saying "thanks babe! I had sooooo much fun! It was such a great night!"

Some people are just clueless and thoughless. Some people are simply not smart enough to be as sinister or nasty as we may imagine. (At least that's been my experience. As a intuitive, I read into everything - too much if I'm feeling insecure). If he really is a SP, maybe he's just expressing how much fun he had (in a literal sense). SPs are all into having a good time whether you're there or not. Or maybe he was just drunk when he posted.

Maybe he didn't even think about it but if it was deliberate, it was pretty mean considering how very careful I've been to reassure him of my continued friendship and that I wanted to make efforts to sustain the friendship.

No. Most likely he's just clueless, which incidentally, I don't think is a valid excuse. It's just the way many people behave. Believe me, you'll make yourself crazy if you expect others to act in the "thoughtful" way you do - at least that's been my experience.

Perhaps he was only interested in it as long as I was making myself available as the on-call therapist.

Perhaps he was using you in an unconscious way. Although most likely just clueless regarding his own insensitive behavior. Sometimes, I find it helps me to try to forgive those that I percieve as "clueless' relaizing that they're just being themselves and don't know how to behave in any other way. But, of course, that's not easy.

 

[Onceajoan]

This story was helpful when I read it a few years ago. I often pull it out my drawer and read it when I feel I'm being pulled into this kind of relationship. Maybe you'll find it helpful too.

The Bridge - A Metaphor

There was a man who had given much thought to what he wanted from life. He had experienced many moods and trials. He had experimented with different ways of living, and he had had his share of both success and failure. At last, he had begun to see clearly where he wanted to go.

Diligently, he searched for the right opportunity. Sometimes he came close, only to be pushed away. Often the applied all of his strength and imagination, only to find the path hopelessly blocked. And then at last it came! But the opportunity would not wait. It would be made available only for a short time. If it were seen that he was not committed, the opportunity would not come again.

Eager to arrive, he started on his journey. With each step, he wanted to move faster; with each thought about his goal, his heart beat quicker; with each vision of what lay ahead, he found renewed vigor. Strength that had left it since his early youth returned, and desires, all kinds of desires, reawakened from their long-dormant positions.

Hurrying along, he came upon a bridge that crossed through the middle of a town. It had been built high above a river in order to protect it from the floods of spring.

He started across. Then he noticed someone coming from the opposite direction. As they moved closer, it seemed as though the other was coming to greet him. He could clearly see, however, that he did not know this other, who was dressed similarly except for something tied around his waist.

When they were within hailing distance, he could see that what the other had about his waist was a rope. It was wrapped around him many times and probably, if extended, would reach a length of 30 feet.

The other began to uncurl the rope, and, just as they were coming close, the stranger said, "Pardon me, would you be so kind as to hold the end a moment?"

Surprised by this politely phrased but curious request, he agreed without a thought, reached out, and took it.

"Thank you," said the other, who then added, "two hands now, and remember, hold tight." Whereupon, the other jumped off the bridge.

Quickly, the free-falling body hurtled the distance of the rope’s length, and from the bridge, the man abruptly felt the pull. Instinctively, he held tight and was almost dragged over the side. He managed to brace himself against the edge, however, and after having caught his breath looked down at the other dangling, close to oblivion.

"What are you trying to do?" he yelled. "Just hold tight," said the other "This is ridiculous," the man thought and began trying to haul the other in. He could not get the leverage, however. It was as though the weight of the other person and the length of the rope had been carefully calculated in advance so that together they created a counterweight just beyond his strength to bring the other back to safety.

"Why did you do this?" the man called out. "Remember," said the other, "if you let go, I will be lost." "But I cannot pull you up," the man cried. "I am your responsibility," said the other. "Well, I did not ask for it," the man said. "If you let go, I am lost," repeated the other.

He began to look around for help. But there was no one. How long would he have to wait? Why did this happen to befall him now, just as he was on the verge of true success? He examined the side, searching for a place to tie the rope. Some protrusion, perhaps, or maybe a hole in the boards. But the railing was unusually uniform in shape; there were no spaces between the boards. There was no way to get rid of this newfound burden, even temporarily.

What do you want?" he asked the other hanging below. "Just your help," the other answered. "How can I help? I cannot pull you in, and there is no place to tie the rope so that I can go and find someone to help me help you." "I know that. Just hang on; that will be enough. Tie the rope around your waist; it will be easier."

Fearing that his arms could not hold out much longer, he tied the rope around his waist. "Why did you do this?" he asked again. "Don’t you see what you have done? What possible purpose could you have in mind?" "Just remember," said the other, "my life is in your hands."

What should he do? "If I let go, all my life I will know that I let this other die. If I stay, I risk losing my momentum toward my own long-sought-after salvation. Either way, this will haunt me forever." With ironic humor he thought to die himself, instantly, to jump off the bridge while he was still holding on. "That would teach this fool." But he wanted to live and live fully. "What a choice I have to make; How shall I ever decide?"

As time went by, still no one came. The critical moment of decision was drawing near. To show his commitment to his own goals, he would have to continue on his journey now. It was already almost too late to arrive in time. But what a terrible choice to have to make!

A new thought occurred to him. While he could not pull this other up solely by his own efforts, if the other would shorten the rope from his end by curling it around his waist again and again, together, they could do it! Actually, the other could do it by himself, so long as he, standing on the bridge, kept it still and steady.

"Now listen," he shouted down. "I think I know how to save you." And he explained his plan. But the other wasn’t interested. "You mean you won’t help? But I told you I cannot pull you up myself, and I don’t think I can hang on much longer either." "You must try," the other shouted back in tears. "If you fail, I die!"

The point of decision had arrived. What should he do? "My life or this other’s?" And then a new idea. A revelation. So new, in fact, it seemed heretical, so alien was it to his traditional way of thinking.

"I want you to listen carefully," he said, "because I mean what I am about to say. I will not accept the position of choice for your life, only for my own; the position of choice for your own life I hereby give back to you."

"What do you mean?" the other asked, afraid. "I mean, simply, it’s up to you. You decide which way this ends. I will become the counterweight. You do the pulling and bring yourself up. I will even tug a little from here." He began unwinding the rope from around his waist and braced himself anew against the side.

"You cannot mean what you say!" the other shrieked. "You would not be so selfish. I am your responsibility. What could be so important that you would let someone die? Do not do this to me!"

He waited a moment. There was not change in the tension of the rope.

"I accept your choice," he said, at last, and freed his hands.

- Edwin H. Friedman

 

[mochajava]

Onceajoan:

t least that's been my experience. As a intuitive, I read into everything - too much if I'm feeling insecure).

I'm with you on this one.

Oh my goodness. I like the rope allegory...

 

[SilkRoad]

Onceajoan - thanks for the input, and the parable. I do know that when I am feeling tired, hurt and sensitive I am more likely to take things personally. And even at the best of times I can be paranoid. I just didn't appreciate the comment.

As for the parable - yeah. The ending feels harsh (I can be quite literal-minded, haha, see the conversation above about balls) but I like the fact that it highlights that the person hanging off the rope makes a choice, to not help themselves. Of course, the person who lets go probably ends up with guilt anyway

I just don't get how people get to that stage. Maybe it's a subject for a whole other thread. I mean, the stage of feeling (consciously or subconsciously) that someone else is responsible for babysitting them through their bad decisions, their reversal of their good decisions, that that other person is being selfish if they say "you know, these are your decisions to make, and I'm afraid you're going to have to make them without reference to me."

Is it just a general lack of personal responsibility? (which I do believe is one of society's biggest ills today)

 

[garbage]

This story was helpful when I read it a few years ago. I often pull it out my drawer and read it when I feel I'm being pulled into this kind of relationship. Maybe you'll find it helpful too.

The Bridge - A Metaphor

Holy. Crap.

How poignant. Thanks for this

 

[Virtual ghost]

Honestly ?

Usually simple "I don't care" does the trick.
Or maybe I will show them where they did a logical hole in their "plan" and walk away.
Or I will fake that I am listening.

The person would litterally need to be devastated for me to show care. (and I can't help myself)

 

[stringstheory]

I just don't get how people get to that stage. Maybe it's a subject for a whole other thread. I mean, the stage of feeling (consciously or subconsciously) that someone else is responsible for babysitting them through their bad decisions, their reversal of their good decisions, that that other person is being selfish if they say "you know, these are your decisions to make, and I'm afraid you're going to have to make them without reference to me."

Is it just a general lack of personal responsibility? (which I do believe is one of society's biggest ills today)

while i wasn't quite as bad as your friend or others with whom i've had this problem (at least i really hope not...), i have been there and i have to say i feel it extends a bit beyond the realm of lacking personal responsibility. especially if you're depressed and spiraling downward it can be really hard to think clearly enough to make your own decisions, much less good ones, and it makes passing your decisions onto other who you perceive to be more capable/healthy a very tempting option. Being in a bad state of mind really does things to you, and i think in this kind of situation lacking personal responsibility can be one of those things.

i think part of the problem i have with being direct when people do this to me is because this is how i experienced it myself; while it drags me down and wears me out emotionally, i can't help but project my understanding of being in their shoes onto them knowing that the only thing that's truly going to get them out of this is themselves. ime doing that all alone hard enough, realizing that i've dragged so many others with me along the way makes it even harder.

 

[Fenekk]

Ugh. It kind of bothers me that so many people are like this with me. It's not that I hate helping people - rather, I like it, and I can offer good advice. It's just... sometimes it really gets to be too much. And, I can talk to you about your problems; I can suggest things that you could do, but I can't fix them for you. What's worse is that INFPs seem to be really bad about coming to me for help. You'd think they wouldn't...

It also gets pretty frustrating when someone comes to you with the same problem over and over again and don't even try to fix it. At some point, you've gotta say.. "You know what? I've said my piece. There's nothing more that I can say. Wake me up when things change."

This. Actually, this is what the aforementioned INFPs do. -_- One of them is always talking to me about his relationship problems, which is awkward to begin with, and even more awkward because he is my brother's girlfriend's best friend... So his relationship problems are often directly related to my brother, because his best friend gets upset or something and takes it out on him, I suppose... I don't know how many times I've had to tell him not to beat himself up for something he didn't do.

 

[skylights]

I hope he starts to sort himself out and stand on his own two feet. I do want to at least signal to him occasionally that I am still his friend. I am preparing to move in a week and am clearing out lots of stuff and found a few things he would really like, I think. I'm going to leave them with a mutual friend for him. Just a little gesture like that. I may leave it a while before I actively get in touch, though. I would like to think that even if we avoid re-hashing his problems and confusions, we'd still have a few things to talk about (as you mentioned with your friend above).

yeah, this sounds good. it's sweet of you.

This story was helpful when I read it a few years ago. I often pull it out my drawer and read it when I feel I'm being pulled into this kind of relationship. Maybe you'll find it helpful too.

The Bridge - A Metaphor

hey, that's pretty cool. the ending does seem a little harsh for me too but it makes sense metaphorically. thanks for sharing it.

 

[SilkRoad]

while i wasn't quite as bad as your friend or others with whom i've had this problem (at least i really hope not...), i have been there and i have to say i feel it extends a bit beyond the realm of lacking personal responsibility. especially if you're depressed and spiraling downward it can be really hard to think clearly enough to make your own decisions, much less good ones, and it makes passing your decisions onto other who you perceive to be more capable/healthy a very tempting option. Being in a bad state of mind really does things to you, and i think in this kind of situation lacking personal responsibility can be one of those things.

i think part of the problem i have with being direct when people do this to me is because this is how i experienced it myself; while it drags me down and wears me out emotionally, i can't help but project my understanding of being in their shoes onto them knowing that the only thing that's truly going to get them out of this is themselves. ime doing that all alone hard enough, realizing that i've dragged so many others with me along the way makes it even harder.

Hm...I guess there are so many possible extremes and permutations with these types of situations. I totally hear you about the depressed/spiralling downwards thing. If it is really that bad and someone seems to be throwing you a lifeline, you could easily feel totally reliant on them. It could be the wrong approach but it could very easily happen and it's not so much that you're just refusing to be responsible, or whatever. It's a situation where you're actually not well.

Both with the SP friend I've discussed and just in general, I've been thinking more about people who don't seem to be depressed...at least long-term...but who seem to be in unconscious patterns of using others as their sounding board or as some kind of unburdening/relief mechanism, but then they go back to all the bad choices and the things they never said they'd do.

I know it can be so easy to see another person's situation clearly (or think you do) and not your own. But it just makes me want to say, don't you see what you're doing...would you just stop dumping ineffectually on me, stand up, be a man, take control of your own life, take the bad with the good, stop choosing to be miserable and to repeat the same old negative patterns which seem to be making you miserable...

 

[Words of Ivory]

The simpliest answers are sometimes the best. Here's my take.

- Most people really, really want to be understood.
- People who are willing to understand you are rare.
- People cling to those who understand them, because of this.

Lots of these people don't seem to understand that this process comes to us like breathing comes to others. To them its something rare and magical. To an INFJ its just how people are.

We're the ones baffled when others don't "get" it.

 

[SilkRoad]

The simpliest answers are sometimes the best. Here's my take.

- Most people really, really want to be understood.
- People who are willing to understand you are rare.
- People cling to those who understand them, because of this.

Lots of these people don't seem to understand that this process comes to us like breathing comes to others. To them its something rare and magical. To an INFJ its just how people are.

We're the ones baffled when others don't "get" it.

I wonder if I have given some people the impression that what I really, really want and love is for them to unload on me all day long. I may possibly have given some mixed messages in that regard - like, if they say "sorry if I'm being depressing" (though not everyone bothers to do that) and I say "it's perfectly fine, really happy to help, don't worry at all" etc.

However, anyone who knows me halfway well - and if you're unloading on me, you should - should know that I also like going to gigs, having a drink, having a fun/interesting conversation etc. So even if I may have sent some mixed messages, I'm not sure it's really an excuse for them to think that all I want out of life is for people to dump on me all day. They're seeing what they want to see, I guess...

 

[Words of Ivory]

I think you might be misjudging their perception, and not taking something into consideration.

Obviously they know that you're not just an "unload" person. The reality is that they probably don't know anyone else capable of it, the part of the thinking process that they can't necessarily find in themselves. That means they become dependent on you to fulfill it.

It's not that they're "seeing what they want to see", it's that you're probably one of the few people they know that have any ability to figure out this stuff for them. No matter their type, a person always wants answers and resolution.

 

[SilkRoad]

I think you might be misjudging their perception, and not taking something into consideration.

Obviously they know that you're not just an "unload" person. The reality is that they probably don't know anyone else capable of it, the part of the thinking process that they can't necessarily find in themselves. That means they become dependent on you to fulfill it.

It's not that they're "seeing what they want to see", it's that you're probably one of the few people they know that have any ability to figure out this stuff for them. No matter their type, a person always wants answers and resolution.

Yes, I take your meaning. A lot of it is probably about miscommunication, especially if you're talking about an NF and an SP or whatever. I haven't been open enough about communicating that I'm getting overloaded and frustrated with their problems and the endless circles they seem to be going in. They haven't wondered, or at least asked, how I feel about being the go-to for this kind of thing.

I hear you when you say "a person always wants answers and resolution." I certainly feel that way. But when a person does not seem to be helping themselves, and when they seem positively determined to remain in situations of uncertainty and unhappiness, when that could change if they were just willing to commit a little bit and stick with things that are a little bit difficult - what then? Do they really want answers and resolution, or as some others have suggested on this thread, do they just want enabling and hand-holding and justification for poor behaviour?

I'm probably going in circles myself at this point - sorry

 

[Words of Ivory]

INFJs are intricately interested in the emotions and feelings behind a situation and how to best deal with those emotions to find an eventual resolution.

Other types? Not so much. You can't expect them to deal with and process the information you give them the same you do, frustrating as it may be.

Honestly? No, they probably don't want answers. They just want to let out their frustration and feelings to someone who can actually understand them. You desire to see them conquer their problems is getting the better of you.

They haven't wondered, or at least asked, how I feel about being the go-to for this kind of thing.

You do this sort of thing so easily, with so little outward thought, that they're probably not even aware that there's a problem. INFJs often spend so much time immersed in other people's feelings and emotions that they end up forgetting to share their own.

 

[SilkRoad]

You desire to see them conquer their problems is getting the better of you.

I guess maybe it is. Because, if I haven't already made it clear, the problem isn't so much that people unload on me. I do invite that, to a certain extent, or I consider it part of being a good friend.

In the case of a few of my best friends and one in particular, we've unloaded a lot on each other over several years. And there have been times when it's frustrating or overwhelming or you feel like the other person isn't making progress - yes. But ultimately, both of us have benefited, and we have made steps and changes in our lives, and the unloading to each other has helped with that.

So I guess it's those situations where someone keeps unloading, and then they don't act in harmony with what they say they're going to do...or they end up back at square one and don't seem to see any problem with that...yeah, that has caused me to burn out on the whole situation.

 

[Asterion]

I find it okay until they start crying. Then I don't know what the hell I'm supposed to do. Particularly if I don't know them well. I'm currently trying to learn how to avoid strange broken people, without hurting their feelings or feeling like an asshole. One trick I have been taught is to make one word responses only. Funnily enough it was an ISTJ who taught me that. But sadly that goes against who I am and I find myself greeting such people and talking to them anyway. I have a similar problem with people loving me, the affection is nice, but it's hard to let them know it will never be reciprocated. I have a lot to learn I think...