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[MBTI General] The Importance of Feeling

copperfish17

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Hmm... from what I've seen, NT's aren't nearly as likely as NF's to actually "bend" in order to facilitate a relationship... especially when a relationship doesn't mean much to them.

So IRL I would assume NF's end up "bending" more than NT's do.
 

Qre:us

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If you can understand The Importance of Being Earnest...
 

Vamp

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If you can understand The Importance of Being Earnest...

Being adopted?

Hmm... from what I've seen, NT's aren't nearly as likely as NF's to actually "bend" in order to facilitate a relationship... especially when a relationship doesn't mean much to them.

So IRL I would assume NF's end up "bending" more than NT's do.

lol, this is how it works out IRL but I think Shmoooo was talking about in theory.



Vamp: I'm glad you're in a different place now. For me, reading people who talked about and validated feelings really helped me hate myself, and my ways of functioning, a lot less. All I ever knew before that was that I wasn't "easygoing" enough, or that I was "too sensitive". Not constructive, particularly from your caretakers on whom you're dependent before age 18 (financial / other independence was the best thing to happen to me ever... I am a rock... I am an island) <=just kidding!

I can't wait to be independent. I need to learn how to not let people affect me and how to function. Who'd you read about?

Vamp: I'm with you on this one (except that the pressure was internal... I wonder what kind of familial hell would have broken loose had I pursued my passions like anthropology and women's studies - I would have done statistics!!). How does this play into the thinking vs. feeling, do you think? I'd like to know as I'm processing this one as well.

I have no idea. :) But I do know that I did a lot of self correcting. I am more aware of everyone's feelings than my own. I knew that my choice of major would disappoint them, so I changed it. That's what I need to get over, basing my behavior on how others feel while ignoring myself.
 

copperfish17

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lol, this is how it works out IRL but I think Shmoooo was talking about in theory.

I know. I wasn't contradicting Shmoooo. Just making an observation.
 

mochajava

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Hi Vamp - I liked books by SARK and Robyn Posin. A lot of Robyn's stuff is up on her website, and some of SARK's books are available through google reader. Both worth a google search :)

People still affect me a lot. Just Friday a coworker/classmate who I will likely doorslam (sorry - what else do I do? There's nothing good in this relationship that I Can't still have after the doorslam). There was something I didn't want to tell her; she dragged it out of me then made this horribly disapproving noises and faces... really judgemental and awful. She didn't follow it up with discussion or explanation, just sheer, strong disapproval for my choices. I just felt so bad, like "why couldn't I tell her in the moment to express herself in words and not cruel gestures?". But maybe it wasn't worth it. Sigh - I don't know. I do know I've done a lot for this person though (gotten then a job, helped them move in, helped them settle in, helped them with various work-related issues but sometimes drawing the line. Ane she just kept pushing me - didn't take no for an answer, kept asking for favor and favor after favor... I am exhausted, and I don't even LIKE this person's personality. Yeah, as I write this out, this is heading to doorslam land. Or rather, mochajava is a doormat land. Who knows?

Vamp: I have no idea. But I do know that I did a lot of self correcting. I am more aware of everyone's feelings than my own. I knew that my choice of major would disappoint them, so I changed it. That's what I need to get over, basing my behavior on how others feel while ignoring myself.

Me too... I think prioritizing myself over others would help me with standing up for myself... something I simply don't do. Bad tendency to have!!
 

Tiltyred

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It's terrifying to say that first "No," but it's also such a rush. Try it; you'll like it. The world won't end and the ceiling won't cave in on you.

Also, everybody doesn't need to know how you feel about everything. Is it disassociating from your feelings just not to talk about them or show them to random people? You can feel them just as intensely. And it's not hiding -- it's keeping private. Sometimes it's appropriate to keep your feelings private. (Not to mention better for you in the long run.)
 

mochajava

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@Tiltyred -- I agree. Keeping feelings private is generally very appropriate. The only person who absolutely needs to see them is you (and, as you decide is appropriate, the people whom they will affect).

Hmm... I say "no" when I need my time... but what about "no" to other things? Do you mean "no" in the context of say, that coworker? Or was that not directed to me ;) ?
 

Vamp

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It's terrifying to say that first "No," but it's also such a rush. Try it; you'll like it. The world won't end and the ceiling won't cave in on you.

Also, everybody doesn't need to know how you feel about everything. Is it disassociating from your feelings just not to talk about them or show them to random people? You can feel them just as intensely. And it's not hiding -- it's keeping private. Sometimes it's appropriate to keep your feelings private. (Not to mention better for you in the long run.)


No. That's not disassociation. I keep everything inside. Unless asked by family. I'm not too much bothered by classmates/coworkers because I don't interact with them much beyond small talk.

Just because we're against disassociation and are having trouble with how people interpret our feelings does not mean we're bleeding hearts that wear it on our sleeves. :p It means, in this thread at least for me, that I repress everything because I've been told to. The idea that people with these problems constantly tell others their feelings and wear their hearts on their sleeves is a negative assumption of what it means to be emotional/sensitive and is part of the problem.
 

Coriolis

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The electrician needs to think about making his client happy right? (whoever is in charge of the office). He needs his next job.
He probably satisfies his boss/client by using his technical skills to do a good job, "good" by objective criteria like it works, satisfies building codes, etc.
Also, what about the considerations like if people are around who are in wheelchairs and need the lights to be at certain levels? Safety lighting?
Specifications for the heights of lights, switches, etc. are objective criteria based upon the needs of the client. The requirement for safety lighting may be based upon some objective criteria (building code, necessary illumination level) or on the subjective criteria of the client (makes him feel safe). In any case, once it is on the job sheet for the electrician, it becomes an objective task that can be objectively evaluated.
I'm not saying that the electrician doesn't need to have their technical skills down, but just saying that the feeling part can be useful for them (presumably they are running a business, not installing light switches in a vacuum - tee hee).
Yes, both feeling and thinking parts are useful for everyone, and at least to some degree, used by everyone. But certain tasks, circumstances, professions, etc. clearly rely much more on one or the other perspective. Liesl was onto something when she wrote that these different perspectives are equally valid because the people who hold them have different goals. Yes, applied to matching goals, they are equally valid. As a thinking type, I do not necessarily consider thinking/objective criteria to be always more important than feeling/subjective ones. I consider them more appropriate to certain tasks, and devote myself to such tasks where I can be most useful and satisfied.
 

Liesl

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Could you give an example of a time when you were belittled for giving so much importance to your psychology, your identity, and your emotions?
Hmm, in my own assessment, a specific example is not as illustrative here as the general principles I've outlined because this isn't a "specific" phenomenon. It's widespread. It exists in the implications of relationships. It occurs virtually everywhere and can involve virtually anyone. I want to illustrate the sort of omnipresence of the problem. Like any form of discrimination, it's in the background of every interaction, although sometimes it's more hidden than at other times.

S/N bias, anyone? lol!

But for the most part, I just don't want to share a specific example because that would be too personal for me! But others who wish to share or who feel they can illustrate it with specific examples are, of course, welcome to. :)
 

Liesl

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It's terrifying to say that first "No," but it's also such a rush. Try it; you'll like it. The world won't end and the ceiling won't cave in on you.

Also, everybody doesn't need to know how you feel about everything. Is it disassociating from your feelings just not to talk about them or show them to random people? You can feel them just as intensely. And it's not hiding -- it's keeping private. Sometimes it's appropriate to keep your feelings private. (Not to mention better for you in the long run.)
I'm not really all that concerned about what's "appropriate." And I decide for myself the extent to which I want to display my emotions. It's an individual choice. It goes back to what I was saying about personal wellbeing. You wouldn't want someone to force you to behave according to standards that weren't healthy for you, would you? It's just that different people have vastly different emotional needs and people often assume that other people approach the world with similar needs and wants for psychological health. False. What I need to do to live well and be happy could easily be vastly different from what you need to do.

Edit: And it seems your last sentence is an example of what I'm objecting to. Someone else thinking that they know what is best for another person! This whole thread is about how people have fundamentally different end goals. And fundamentally different needs. So you can never know what is "best" for another person. Or what makes the most sense. Or what the best methods for them are. Et cetera.
 

Liesl

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If this dichotomy is so extreme then what is to be said about those who end up at the same end, but took different paths to get there? I.e. one path dealt with F and the other with T.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. If you rephrase, I might answer.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

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I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. If you rephrase, I might answer.

I don't quite know either... I think we were talking about subjectivity and objectivity and you said something about one object would be ineffective with one person, but work with another. It sparked a thought, which is... If that the difference between using this object on one person is so dramatic with another then how is it that two distinct paths F and T can end up at the same end even if they used this same object to get to it and it was 'ineffective' for one of them..... I'm repeating myself from before. Does this make sense?

An example is the use of T functions and the use of F functions in order to solve a problem and come up with the same answer. Maybe? :huh:
 

Liesl

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Hi Vamp - I liked books by SARK and Robyn Posin. A lot of Robyn's stuff is up on her website, and some of SARK's books are available through google reader. Both worth a google search :)

People still affect me a lot. Just Friday a coworker/classmate who I will likely doorslam (sorry - what else do I do? There's nothing good in this relationship that I Can't still have after the doorslam). There was something I didn't want to tell her; she dragged it out of me then made this horribly disapproving noises and faces... really judgemental and awful. She didn't follow it up with discussion or explanation, just sheer, strong disapproval for my choices. I just felt so bad, like "why couldn't I tell her in the moment to express herself in words and not cruel gestures?". But maybe it wasn't worth it. Sigh - I don't know. I do know I've done a lot for this person though (gotten then a job, helped them move in, helped them settle in, helped them with various work-related issues but sometimes drawing the line. Ane she just kept pushing me - didn't take no for an answer, kept asking for favor and favor after favor... I am exhausted, and I don't even LIKE this person's personality. Yeah, as I write this out, this is heading to doorslam land. Or rather, mochajava is a doormat land. Who knows?



Me too... I think prioritizing myself over others would help me with standing up for myself... something I simply don't do. Bad tendency to have!!
I VOTE DOORSLAM TOO! :)
 

Liesl

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I don't quite know either... I think we were talking about subjectivity and objectivity and you said something about one object would be ineffective with one person, but work with another. It sparked a thought, which is... If that the difference between using this object on one person is so dramatic with another then how is it that two distinct paths F and T can end up at the same end even if they used this same object to get to it and it was 'ineffective' for one of them..... I'm repeating myself from before. Does this make sense?

An example is the use of T functions and the use of F functions in order to solve a problem and come up with the same answer. Maybe? :huh:
Okay, I think I get the gist of what you're saying.

I didn't go back in the thread to figure out what exactly I said. But the context of my argument was probably that using a certain set of principles that work well on a person T, who is a thinker, can be ineffective for a person F, who is a feeler. Even whilst they are working toward the same goal. Which makes sense because when I say our "objectives in life," I don't just mean a certain destination. Really our "needs" and "wants" are ongoing processes. The process is part of the end goal. Or as important. Or however you want to phrase it.

Am I interpreting your question correctly?
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

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...using a certain set of principles that work well on a person T, who is a thinker, can be ineffective for a person F, who is a feeler. Even whilst they are working toward the same goal.

This. What if this exact same tool, even though it was ineffective, still gets you the same results with the other person in which it was effective. That doesn't make sense because then it technically would have been effective. Nevermind, I killed the thought.
 

sulfit

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I was thinking about what T and F really mean, what is this logic and what are feelings, and what is the importance of having both. Combining what I learned from MBTI and reading some literature on evolutionary psychology and biology I got the following model built up:

Thinking value system rigs one's brain to favor competition within one's species. It places more value on own self and less value in other individuals. Result is feelings of confidence, boosted self-value, awesomeness, but also perceiving other people have less value, deriving enjoyment from competition be it just sports and verbal sparring (arguments), up to making somebody else cry or even physical confrontation. T-value system also makes one be less interested in people and relationships in general. Not surprisingly most of male population tests as T-types. Some of the T-types however have easier access to feelings (all those whose feeling is their tertiary function).

Feeling value system rigs one's brain for cooperation within one's species. It places a lot of value on other people and less value one oneself. As a result feelers may lack confidence and experience feelings of low self worth, however they will have increased interest in other people and relationships in general, more acutely aware of worth of others, more sympathetic and desiring to seek win-win situations rather than win-lose competitive situations. Competition is distasteful to F-types. Most of women test as F-types as well as about 20% of men. F-types with tertiary T-function will find it easier to access T-type logic.

When decision stands to be made, our judgement function can reference either T or F value system. The two value systems, however, are inherently incompatible. When the feeling value system has been crossly violated, this sensation to us is known to us as guilt. When thinker value systems has been violated, this sensation is known to us as lack of respect, disdain. Not surprisingly it also plays into misunderstanding across genders. Unlike the N and S divide, or the I and E divide, this divide does actually correlate to gender and is responsible for the famous "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" saying.

What happens if you don't process your feelings is that you may either completely reject them and use pure T-type logic in relations to other people. This can harm your relationships as you will start acting selfish, callous, and cold towards other where other type of behavior would have made all the sense. And on the other extreme if you don't take time to process your emotions this may lead you to act in a way that others will simply take advantage of you. You will be cooperating where you should have been competing, so once again it can harm you.

So anybody gives you problems and belittles your emotions - give them this little lecture :p Emotions are in fact a very powerful tool that keeps the society together. If people went around not processing their emotions the world would be much more of a mess than it is now.
 

Vamp

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So anybody gives you problems and belittles your emotions - give them this little lecture :p Emotions are in fact a very powerful tool that keeps the society together. If people went around not processing their emotions the world would be much more of a mess than it is now.

Once a person has taken the "you're silly for putting so much stock in emotions" position with you, everything you say from that point on is categorized as more senseless emotional babble. ;)

All of what has been shared in this thread is exactly why I have such a flat affect and present an emotionless face. There's just no point in any of it. Most people hate emotions and most people hate intuitives. It's a lose/lose.
 

Thalassa

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it's just a cultural bias...we currently live in a culture that is very work/money oriented - as if that is the entire meaning of life - where as in other cultures they put more emphasis on family, community, taking care of children and their elderly, or hey they just go home for naps in the middle of the day or take two hour lunch breaks so they actually enjoy their lives instead of working themselves to death

it's a very American mindset to just "keep going" in the name of getting things done or making more money or being a useful fucking tool for XYZ Corporation but I have a very strong sense of identity so I'm capable of fighting it

I also tend to have relationships with men who are feelers for this reason
 

Vamp

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it's just a cultural bias...we currently live in a culture that is very work/money oriented - as if that is the entire meaning of life - where as in other cultures they put more emphasis on family, community, taking care of children and their elderly, or hey they just go home for naps in the middle of the day or take two hour lunch breaks so they actually enjoy their lives instead of working themselves to death

it's a very American mindset to just "keep going" in the name of getting things done or making more money or being a useful fucking tool for XYZ Corporation but I have a very strong sense of identity so I'm capable of fighting it

I also tend to have relationships with men who are feelers for this reason

True which is why I don't fit in anywhere. I wish I could avoid people like that, I'm tired of being constantly judged as a silly weakling because I can't, say, work a well paying job if I don't enjoy doing it. That's pretty much the bulk of what I was referring to. Everyone wants me to eat shit and like it and from my economical, social and whatever position that's the only choice I have so I'd better get used to it.
 
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