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[MBTI General] The Importance of Feeling

Halla74

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Jan 20, 2009
Messages
6,898
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ESTP
Enneagram
7w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Here's a perspective from an ESTP, 7w8.

I've always been an aloof, objective, tactical, problem-solver.
Somehow my purpose in life is to figure out how to make things happen.
Emotions are not a primary skill set for such a life, and I really didn't have to deal with them until about two years ago, at the tender age of 34. :doh:

Why did I have to develop my tertiary function, Fe? Because I was in a really difficult part of my life, and I was unable to make decisions as to how to resolve things, and move on.

I'm going to say that again.

Me, an ESTP, was unable to make DECISIONS. :shock:

Why?

Well, as it turns out, not all decisions can be solved in a spreadsheet, or with on the fly analytical problem solving skills. There are some MAJOR decisions in life, and of course many EVERYDAY decisions too that require each of us to decide how we FEEL about something.

Well, how about that? If you don't have a well developed set of feelings, you can be stopped in your tracks. I would have NEVER guessed that a possibility if it had not happened to me first hand. I actually went into a major depression over this, as I have never been unable to make things happen, or been unable to decide my destiny in real time. That really screwed my head up.

So. What did I do?

I layed by the pool and thought. And thought. And thought some more. And that didn't help. Then I layed by the pool some more and tried to FEEL. I asked myself some silly questions: (1) How do I feel right now? (2) Why do I feel this way? (3) What does it mean? (4) What am I going to do about it?

After about a month of asking myself these things several times per day, my feelings began to come alive. It was freaking WEIRD. But it got me through my issues. It let me solve my problems. It allowed me to find a way through things, and ultimately I got better very quickly.

Now, almost two years later, I have a fairly well developed set of feelings. i am able to make decisions better than ever before, and in many cases even faster than before. I am no longer ignorant of the fact that making decisions with my feelings does not put me at risk for being irrational. My thiniing skill set is always on over drive, but now that I have feelings to guide my thoughts, I am able to get to the real information needed to solve problems, instead of being paralyzed by details that are bountiful in supply, but are not really at all important to me.

So, I'd like to take a moment to thank you wonderful Idyllics for using your feelings, and for showing the rest of us how to do it well. Please be patient with the Thinkers in your lives. We are not heartless assholes. We are trying to make ourselves useful by offering fool proof solutions to things that are valid under all circumstances. Us being "aloof" just means we are trying to be unbiased. We really do care. Our feelings can be hurt, and when they are it's pretty deep, but we tend to get over it quickly. We are not beyond hope. It just takes the right circumstances in our lives to compel us to develop something we are not naturally good at. :newwink:

Peace to you all,

-Halla
 

Liesl

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Jun 20, 2010
Messages
204
You're right -- this bias absolutely exists. I find this in the male, engineer-dominated environments I've mostly spent my time in. And it is draining! Facts and logic are not 100% of who I am, and I will not deny the rest. (FTR: I'm not saying ANYTHING against males or engineers, or even making generalizations about them -- just saying those logic is the one and only MO in the pieces of those environments that I've experienced).

Other biases against? Humanities. Social sciences. Females. Anything feminine. Anything "squishy". Anything emotional. Anything you can't freaking write an equation for!

Sorry -- I didn't realize I would start ranting in this text box, Leisl. But I just wanted to say that you're not alone at all. This thing you're picking up is abundantly real, and I think you just have to stand up for this way in which you function that happens to be different than that environment. There are some societies, however, taht are the opposite. Have you read/seen ethnographies?
I like your ranting! You hit the nail on the head when you said you weren't 100% facts and logic. Everyone should be able to function in a way that they find valid and is conducive to their wellbeing. Why would we all conform to someone else's way of living because they decided their way of thinking was more "legitimate"? We're all pre-programmed to function in different ways, which means everyone is inherently biased as to what they think is legitimate.

Put on a Poker face.. smile a lot, tell jokes.Don't let them see you worry. Act like you haven't a care in the world.
Go home and cry yourself to sleep , again.
Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

Sometimes I write a poem

That's how I deal with my feelings.
I'm glad you've found a way to deal with your feelings that works for you, but that wouldn't work for me! But I thank you for the suggestion.
 

Liesl

New member
Joined
Jun 20, 2010
Messages
204
Here's a perspective from an ESTP, 7w8.

I've always been an aloof, objective, tactical, problem-solver.
Somehow my purpose in life is to figure out how to make things happen.
Emotions are not a primary skill set for such a life, and I really didn't have to deal with them until about two years ago, at the tender age of 34. :doh:

Why did I have to develop my tertiary function, Fe? Because I was in a really difficult part of my life, and I was unable to make decisions as to how to resolve things, and move on.

I'm going to say that again.

Me, an ESTP, was unable to make DECISIONS. :shock:

Why?

Well, as it turns out, not all decisions can be solved in a spreadsheet, or with on the fly analytical problem solving skills. There are some MAJOR decisions in life, and of course many EVERYDAY decisions too that require each of us to decide how we FEEL about something.

Well, how about that? If you don't have a well developed set of feelings, you can be stopped in your tracks. I would have NEVER guessed that a possibility if it had not happened to me first hand. I actually went into a major depression over this, as I have never been unable to make things happen, or been unable to decide my destiny in real time. That really screwed my head up.

So. What did I do?

I layed by the pool and thought. And thought. And thought some more. And that didn't help. Then I layed by the pool some more and tried to FEEL. I asked myself some silly questions: (1) How do I feel right now? (2) Why do I feel this way? (3) What does it mean? (4) What am I going to do about it?

After about a month of asking myself these things several times per day, my feelings began to come alive. It was freaking WEIRD. But it got me through my issues. It let me solve my problems. It allowed me to find a way through things, and ultimately I got better very quickly.

Now, almost two years later, I have a fairly well developed set of feelings. i am able to make decisions better than ever before, and in many cases even faster than before. I am no longer ignorant of the fact that making decisions with my feelings does not put me at risk for being irrational. My thiniing skill set is always on over drive, but now that I have feelings to guide my thoughts, I am able to get to the real information needed to solve problems, instead of being paralyzed by details that are bountiful in supply, but are not really at all important to me.

So, I'd like to take a moment to thank you wonderful Idyllics for using your feelings, and for showing the rest of us how to do it well. Please be patient with the Thinkers in your lives. We are not heartless assholes. We are trying to make ourselves useful by offering fool proof solutions to things that are valid under all circumstances. Us being "aloof" just means we are trying to be unbiased. We really do care. Our feelings can be hurt, and when they are it's pretty deep, but we tend to get over it quickly. We are not beyond hope. It just takes the right circumstances in our lives to compel us to develop something we are not naturally good at. :newwink:

Peace to you all,

-Halla
Thank you, Halla. :)
 

Arclight

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3,177
MBTI Type
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I like your ranting! You hit the nail on the head when you said you weren't 100% facts and logic. Everyone should be able to function in a way that they find valid and is conducive to their wellbeing. Why would we all conform to someone else's way of living because they decided their way of thinking was more "legitimate"? We're all pre-programmed to function in different ways, which means everyone is inherently biased as to what they think is legitimate.


I'm glad you've found a way to deal with your feelings that works for you, but that wouldn't work for me! But I thank you for the suggestion.

I was being a bit facetious and cynical. it's really not that bad at all.

Someone needs to invent "Touch Tone Typing" where somehow, The keyboard reads your mood and intent and your typeface is color coded to a matching emotion. This would be brilliant .. no?
 

Liesl

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204
I was being a bit facetious and cynical. it's really not that bad at all.

Someone needs to invent "Touch Tone Typing" where somehow, The keyboard reads your mood and intent and your typeface is color coded to a matching emotion. This would be brilliant .. no?
Ok? What I'm talking about is pretty serious.
 

Arclight

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I never said I didn't take you seriously.

Only to not take my suggestion too seriously.

Do you see the difference?
 

Liesl

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204
I never said I didn't take you seriously.

Only to not take my suggestion too seriously.

Do you see the difference?
Yes, I do. Thank you for clarifying. In the sense that I'm talking about it, it inflicts serious damage on others. I'm talking about discriminating against people in a way that leads to their destruction as emotional or physical beings. Also, I think it's weird to tell people what to take seriously or what not to. Everybody takes the things that are important to them or concern their happiness seriously. Who has the right to tell you that what's important to you is not important?

EDIT: Haha, I misread what you were saying again! (I'm going through things REALLY fast.) Never mind.
 

Arclight

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Yes, I do. Thank you for clarifying. In the sense that I'm talking about it, it inflicts serious damage on others. I'm talking about discriminating against people in a way that leads to their destruction as emotional or physical beings. Also, I think it's weird to tell people what to take seriously or what not to. Everybody takes the things that are important to them or concern their happiness seriously. Who has the right to tell you that what's important to you is not important?

Ok.. we risk thread derailment.
SO I am just going to say that I believe we are not anywhere near the same page tonight, emotionally or mentally and therefore before we have a complete communication breakdown, I am going to take a time out.
Talk to you some other time..

Regards!

Edit Ok then.. you can disregard this post :)
 

Mondo

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I can't speak for anyone else but I know addressing my own emotions is part of my fundamental well-being. Call me an "extreme" feeler or whatever you want. But in order to function normally, I need a certain amount of freedom and independence and ability to make choices for myself. I have psychological needs that are as fundamental to my daily life as my physical needs. When I'm under psychological stress, within days it manifests itself as physical illness. The mind and the body are connected.

I agree with you and I understand that people can easily go through that. If I was letting my emotions take over my body, I can see that having detrimental effects on my body. Are these people telling you to deny your emotional states or to simply dissociate from them? Dissociating from your emotions doesn't mean you completely abandon your emotions! It just means that for a brief period of time, you are able to look at whatever situation you're in from a different viewpoint- one which is a little more 'objective' in nature. I'm not saying that you should deny your emotions at all!

Liesl said:
Looking at a situation objectively means taking a lot of things into consideration, including emotions. And ultimately, there's no such thing as looking at something "objectively" because the weight that people place on various factors depends on their own priorities. And we already know that people have fundamentally different priorities and motivations in life. A "thinking" type simply weighs impersonal factors more than personal factors. A "feeling" type weighs personal factors more than impersonal factors. I really object to this idea that feelers leave out criteria that thinkers don't. All types leave out an equal amount of criteria. It's just what those criteria are that makes the difference.

I also agree with this. In fact, I gave an outline on how many people make decisions. They use personal factors in their decision making processes but they also use logic to help them out. I think that explains the thought process well. I know I want something- I have no logical reason for wanting the thing and I figure out how to get what I want. However, I understand some people think differently. This wasn't even at the crux of what I was arguing against though.


Liesl said:
Everybody has to be responsible for their own personal well-being. In order to do that, you have to create an environment where everybody CAN take care of their own personal well-being. To create an environment that is biased toward people that prioritize things a certain way is exactly that: biased. What I'm objecting to is preventing people from taking care of themselves because you insist that they evaluate situations the same way you do, which is discriminating. They think that their method of evaluating is somehow more legitimate. That's impossible because we're all biased toward prioritizing different things for our own benefit.

True but while I don't know if this is true or not, I have some people make decisions on emotions which harm others directly or indirectly- decisions which the person would have likely not made if viewing things more objectively. People should be allowed to take care of their own personal well-being if they are able to do so without harming others in some way. One of the "examples" you stated seemed to have to do with organizations. I worked in a hospital kitchen (and yes- the food was awful.. we employees got higher-quality cafeteria food instead) for a while- it was in a sense like "assembly line" work. Your emotions didn't matter at the kitchen. You just had to get your work done. There are many jobs which are like that. Efficiency is the most important thing and nothing else. Not every organization is about expressing your individuality.
 

Liesl

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204
I agree with you and I understand that people can easily go through that. If I was letting my emotions take over my body, I can see that having detrimental effects on my body. Are these people telling you to deny your emotional states or to simply dissociate from them? Dissociating from your emotions doesn't mean you completely abandon your emotions! It just means that for a brief period of time, you are able to look at whatever situation you're in from a different viewpoint- one which is a little more 'objective' in nature. I'm not saying that you should deny your emotions at all!



I also agree with this. In fact, I gave an outline on how many people make decisions. They use personal factors in their decision making processes but they also use logic to help them out. I think that explains the thought process well. I know I want something- I have no logical reason for wanting the thing and I figure out how to get what I want. However, I understand some people think differently. This wasn't even at the crux of what I was arguing against though.




True but while I don't know if this is true or not, I have some people make decisions on emotions which harm others directly or indirectly- decisions which the person would have likely not made if viewing things more objectively. People should be allowed to take care of their own personal well-being if they are able to do so without harming others in some way. One of the "examples" you stated seemed to have to do with organizations. I worked in a hospital kitchen (and yes- the food was awful.. we employees got higher-quality cafeteria food instead) for a while- it was in a sense like "assembly line" work. Your emotions didn't matter at the kitchen. You just had to get your work done. There are many jobs which are like that. Efficiency is the most important thing and nothing else. Not every organization is about expressing your individuality.
You missed the entire point of what I was saying! I'm saying that there is no more value in assessing a situation "objectively" as there is assessing a situation "subjectively." Impersonal judgments weigh impersonal criteria more than personal criteria. Personal judgments weigh more personal criteria than impersonal criteria. It's the same formula except with different weights. "Objective judgments" are no more valid than "subjective" judgments. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Everybody measures situations based on different criteria. Each are equally valid because everybody is biased toward valuing a certain set of criteria. And the truth is that there's no such thing as "objectivity" because it's just weighing different and impersonal but equally biased criteria.

So for example, let's take a person who assesses a situation differently than you do. You may not think that their assessment is "objective." Who cares? Ultimately your judgment is no more valid than theirs. You are considering different factors that are more important to YOU or make more sense to YOU. But the other person has different factors that are more important to THEM and make more sense to THEM.

An objective judgment considers factors X and Y. A subjective judgment considers factors A and B. Who is to say that X and Y are more valid factors than A and B? Or what the "correct" or "more valid" way of judging is?

What I'm saying has nothing to do with expressing individuality. It has everything to do with everyone's basic right to be treated equally within a system. No one should be forced to function according to another person's whims because that person's way of life is the best according to that person. Obviously it's equally important for everybody to be able to pursue their own wellbeing, but a person should be able to live their life without trying to "please" another person or have to conform to someone else's standards of what is right or wrong. Why? SEE ABOVE. Everyone and his cousin thinks that their orientation to the world is the "best" or "smartest" or "most valuable" or "most objective."
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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The bias works both ways. I work in a largely male, scientific environment like Mochajava described, and for me, it is paradise. I can be myself entirely -- no pretenses, no holding back. I can give everything I have and it is appreciated. Then I step outside, anywhere else really, and it is not good enough. I have to play the mind-games of wondering what people REALLY mean by what they say. I'm expected to emote when I have no wish to and nothing to express. I'm surrounded by a cacophany of other people's feelings that all seem like so many slippery eels. There is nothing I can grab onto. I'm expected to engage in social rituals beyond common courtesy, whose only purpose seems to be making others feel comfortable. I will do this for those close to me and whom I care about, but it gets draining quickly.

All of this is simply a criticism of the external environment, and not of the necessity of coming to terms with one's own internal emotion-scape. As Mondo mentioned, however, detachment from emotions is a legitimate technique for doing this, and in no way equates to denial. In fact, the ability to detach may reduce the negative physical manifestations of emotions. I have been pondering one concern, though. Are there cases where detached consideration is not effective or appropriate? Can one become overreliant on this method, and if so, what is the detriment? Are there better ways to deal with emotions, particularly negative ones?

I cannot say I have ever considered emotions inherently irrational or stupid, but I have lately been considering some of the same questions both Shmoooooo and Halla discussed in their posts. I would be interested in learning what I can about the importance of feeling from those more adept in this area.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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Now, almost two years later, I have a fairly well developed set of feelings. i am able to make decisions better than ever before, and in many cases even faster than before. I am no longer ignorant of the fact that making decisions with my feelings does not put me at risk for being irrational. My thiniing skill set is always on over drive, but now that I have feelings to guide my thoughts, I am able to get to the real information needed to solve problems, instead of being paralyzed by details that are bountiful in supply, but are not really at all important to me.
If you substitute "values" for "feelings" in the above, I would agree wholeheartedly. Values tell us what we want and why; logic/rationality/objectivity help us get there. Values are inputs, while rationality is a process. If the process has no guiding purpose, one is as a rudderless ship. For me, however, the development and lifelong refinement of values can also be a logical process, involving self-consistency and maintenance of a firm foundation.
 

Liesl

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The bias works both ways. I work in a largely male, scientific environment like Mochajava described, and for me, it is paradise. I can be myself entirely -- no pretenses, no holding back. I can give everything I have and it is appreciated. Then I step outside, anywhere else really, and it is not good enough. I have to play the mind-games of wondering what people REALLY mean by what they say. I'm expected to emote when I have no wish to and nothing to express. I'm surrounded by a cacophany of other people's feelings that all seem like so many slippery eels. There is nothing I can grab onto. I'm expected to engage in social rituals beyond common courtesy, whose only purpose seems to be making others feel comfortable. I will do this for those close to me and whom I care about, but it gets draining quickly.

All of this is simply a criticism of the external environment, and not of the necessity of coming to terms with one's own internal emotion-scape. As Mondo mentioned, however, detachment from emotions is a legitimate technique for doing this, and in no way equates to denial. In fact, the ability to detach may reduce the negative physical manifestations of emotions. I have been pondering one concern, though. Are there cases where detached consideration is not effective or appropriate? Can one become overreliant on this method, and if so, what is the detriment? Are there better ways to deal with emotions, particularly negative ones?

I cannot say I have ever considered emotions inherently irrational or stupid, but I have lately been considering some of the same questions both Shmoooooo and Halla discussed in their posts. I would be interested in learning what I can about the importance of feeling from those more adept in this area.
YES. In my estimation, there are a lot of areas where "detached consideration" is not the most appropriate method for the user and the people who are surrounding the user of said "detached consideration." And not only that, though it may be a legitimate technique in person X's estimation, it may not be a legitimate technique for person Y. The determination of what is "valid" is INHERENTLY subjective.

We are all biologically predisposed to value certain ways of functioning, and those predispositions are sometimes indicative of what is best for us, what allows us to be happy and well in the world.

And thank you for your interest in understanding the importance of feeling, Coriolis. :)

Oh, and the point about the bias working both ways is absolutely correct. For example, at weddings, their are three billion rules of etiquette that (in my judgment) are all total BS. But a person who chooses to forgo a wedding or getting married entirely or whatever may be subject to scrutiny. Also an example of thinking/feeling discrimination. Another example: who is to say that a thinker's method of navigating romantic relationships is any less valid than a feeler's?
 

Coriolis

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Everybody measures situations based on different criteria. Each are equally valid because everybody is biased toward valuing a certain set of criteria. And the truth is that there's no such thing as "objectivity" because it's just weighing different and impersonal but equally biased criteria.
I disagree. One should use the right tool for the job. Some situations require objective criteria and thinking, like repairing machinery, performing surgery, or auditing business accounts. Others require a subjective approach, like grief counseling, or much artistic design. Many, however, require both. All approaches are not equally valid and effective in all circumstances, and the wrong one can be downright disastrous.
 

Liesl

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I disagree. One should use the right tool for the job. Some situations require objective criteria and thinking, like repairing machinery, performing surgery, or auditing business accounts. Others require a subjective approach, like grief counseling, or much artistic design. Many, however, require both. All approaches are not equally valid and effective in all circumstances, and the wrong one can be downright disastrous.
What I'm saying is that what you think is the right tool for the job may not be what I think is the right tool for the job. If you used what you thought was the "right tool" for the job in a situation, I might end up experiencing disaster because you didn't consider that I function differently than you.

Two different people can enter the exact same situations and using the same method on both could be disastrous for one and extremely effective for the other. It's not only the circumstance that determines the validity of a method but also the PERSON. I'm not saying that all approaches are equally valid in every circumstance. I'm saying that any approach could potentially be the most valid in any circumstance.
 

Mondo

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You missed the entire point of what I was saying! I'm saying that there is no more value in assessing a situation "objectively" as there is assessing a situation "subjectively." Impersonal judgments weigh impersonal criteria more than personal criteria. Personal judgments weigh more personal criteria than impersonal criteria. It's the same formula except with different weights. "Objective judgments" are no more valid than "subjective" judgments. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Everybody measures situations based on different criteria. Each are equally valid because everybody is biased toward valuing a certain set of criteria. And the truth is that there's no such thing as "objectivity" because it's just weighing different and impersonal but equally biased criteria.

So for example, let's take a person who assesses a situation differently than you do. You may not think that their assessment is "objective." Who cares? Ultimately your judgment is no more valid than theirs. You are considering different factors that are more important to YOU or make more sense to YOU. But the other person has different factors that are more important to THEM and make more sense to THEM.

An objective judgment considers factors X and Y. A subjective judgment considers factors A and B. Who is to say that X and Y are more valid factors than A and B? Or what the "correct" or "more valid" way of judging is?

What I'm saying has nothing to do with expressing individuality. It has everything to do with everyone's basic right to be treated equally within a system. No one should be forced to function according to another person's whims because that person's way of life is the best according to that person. Obviously it's equally important for everybody to be able to pursue their own wellbeing, but a person should be able to live their life without trying to "please" another person or have to conform to someone else's standards of what is right or wrong. Why? SEE ABOVE. Everyone and his cousin thinks that their orientation to the world is the "best" or "smartest" or "most valuable" or "most objective."

Ok, I think I understand now. I guess I wasn't getting the fact that "choosing to not dissociate from emotions" was a way of life. I'll admit that I might have approached this from a somewhat narrow-minded perspective.
 

Liesl

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Ok, I think I understand now. I guess I wasn't getting the fact that "choosing to not dissociate from emotions" was a way of life. I'll admit that I might have approached this from a somewhat narrow-minded perspective.

Thank you. :)
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
I talked with someone about this today. Subjectivity doesn't change the object, it changes how we view the object. This being said, that means that if you see a certain something and you consider that too be the wrong something it doesn't make it the wrong one, it means your subjectivity is getting in the way. I think this is what Coriolis may be getting towards.

I grasp the fact that using emotions when making a decisions is a useful approach. Sometimes this is the only way to get through to someone, but as every other thinker would agree it's not our first approach.
 

Liesl

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I talked with someone about this today. Subjectivity doesn't change the object, it changes how we view the object. This being said, that means that if you see a certain something and you consider that too be the something it doesn't make it the wrong one, it means your subjectivity is getting in the way. I think this is what Coriolis may be getting towards.
When I say "objectivity" I meant using impersonal criteria to assess a situation.
When I say "subjectivity" I meant using personal criteria to assess a situation.
I mean it strictly in terms of the thinking/feeling dichotomy of MBTI.

In my struggles to understand the many NTs that have been in my life, I have come to the conclusion that using "objective" criteria seems more "real" to them. On the flip side of the coin, I want NTs to know that using "subjective" criteria seems more "real" to myself and other NFs.

The bias I'm trying to get at exists within groups of thinkers and within groups of feelers too. Although 'thinking types' may be more likely to use the same criteria to come to judgments, they often use different criteria from each other. And same with 'feeling types.' I'm talking about the different ways we use to assess situations, particularly when they involve ourselves. Only we can know which method is truly beneficial for ourselves or "valid" to ourselves. And two people in the same situation may benefit from different methods of 'judging'.
 
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