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[ENFP] Common ENFP issues

Amargith

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Yeah, but why this almost always have to end with endless expansions ? Why there can't really be concrete conclusions or fundamantal shifts in direction ?

Hah, because you first have to be able to see eye to eye before you can get to conclusions -and that requires a fundamental understanding of each others povs...and that be complex in this case :)

In short, this stuff is complex, highly abstract and highly complex, and the devil is in this case in the nuance, making it that much fuzzier.

Add to that that you re both coming from a place of frustration and past repeated baggage on this area and well...this shit takes time, ine. In most cases that ive sern it takes talking through this shit a serious number of times, while feeling frustrated that you re going in a loop and seemingly going nowhere before you get that shift youre asking for, that internal click and 'aha' moment on both sides.

External shit just tends to be easier to address.

It may not feel like it, but you are in fact making progress :)
 

Starry

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I haven't seen this conversation until now and only just skimmed it.

I'm happy to participate, but I haven't identified a clear topic yet other than "NFPs annoy someone".

So regarding this question....I may be interpreting it incorrectly, given I am not totally clear on the context.

But here goes... [MENTION=4347]Virtual ghost[/MENTION]

Criticism often stems from someone feeling someone else is wrong and you need to correct them. The problem here is - is this standard you are measuring them with really objective?

The vast majority of the time, the standard is really upholding one or both of these things:
- A value you prioritise above other values.
Every action or goal you are choosing above other things. You asserting values at every moment. This is the perspective of the Feeling types. If an NFP is, say, bad at time management, it certainly may be a flaw, but it often stems from prioritizing differently. It's not personal. They aren't disrespecting other people's time intentionally or blowing off a deadline intentionally. And the decision they make is rational in the sense that they have prioritized something they consider more valuable than time.

So when you ascribe bad motive to the NFP, they are hearing that something they feel is frivolous (time) is being used to judge their entire character. And to them, this can be nonsense, because they feel that what motivates them is so much bigger than time.

An alternate approach is to not ascribe bad motive or judge character based on a difference in how you value stuff in reality. It is logical to you to take ABC steps to reach Y goal by X time, but to the NFP, something more important than Y goal was given precedence.
This means recognizing that your own actions and goals, on some level, stem from a premise of value. You have deemed it worthwhile and significant, etc. Realizing that, you have to recognize that not everyone assigns the same value to things.

- Your interpretation of reality and events therein.
The illustration of several people witnessing a crime and giving different accounts of it is applicable here. We don't all experience reality the same way. We frame things differently, and it's not just situations, but our entire life experience that creates a bigger context. Some criticism can basically assert that your interpretation is somehow THE interpretation. It is the TRUTH of reality. But it's not. We all have bias, blindspots, incomplete information, etc.

When other people don't live up to your standards, it is not necessarily deliberate defiance of objective standards or total incompetency or anything like that. They don't interpret reality the same way. Things don't mean to them what they mean to you. This obviously connects to the previous point about differences in values. This means they have different standards.

This means criticism often stems from a person's need to assert they are RIGHT. They need to feel their standards are CORRECT, because this validates their perspective and experience. It boosts their EGO. Obviously, this in itself is a perspective, and IMO, it is a common one of NFPs that your standards are not objective, but a preference.

Things are logical only if you are prioritizing a particular goal.
Imagine that someone is prioritizing something very different...now their actions are given totally different meaning, and may actually make quite a bit of sense. To do this, you have to accept there is possibly not one right way or that your value is not objectively more important; that can be threatening for some people.

Also, emotional content for Feeling types often doesn't cloud communication. Rather, it clarifies, because it signifies value. The tone of voice, the little flairs in phrasing, etc, this tells you how important something or someone is to you and why someone else should be motivated to bother with what you value. When emotional communication is done poorly, you can inadvertently send value messages you don't even intend to send. Basically, you can't assume that others will prioritize as you do, and if you want them to prioritize what you do, then you have to appeal to what they value. Rapport does this. Feeling types often value human relationships - seeing these as a fundamental aspect of human happiness and survival - and so people DO motivate others by appealing to this. It is in essence motivating others by saying, "uphold this value of mine because you value ME." That can be some manipulative stuff right there, yeah, but it's not irrational if you consider it a part of a larger system of interacting for mutual benefit. It's really a cornerstone for concepts like respect and honor and the golden rule.

So maybe you mean to just communicate facts or correct an error - nothing personal! Except someone hears "You are stupid, weak and incompetent. I don't respect you or what you value. I am RIGHT. You are WRONG and BAD."

Hearing that, someone doesn't hear an upholding of objective standards, but judgement stemming from a personal bias. You just demotivated them. The "logical" thing for them is to devalue you in return (because they experienced you as the instigator of this dynamic) and find situations and people which value their abilities and also share what they value.

That's average people too, or particularly, average NFPs. Really, really, really emotionally mature people will react less and have insight into why someone is poor at emotional messages. But most people are, of course, average.



This is awesome. I'll mark it for future use.
Thanks so much for this!
 

Starry

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However since I ended here anyway I have actual question.



How ENFP people feel about concepts such as this one.





or







Btw. do you know anyone like me ?



You are going to reject us and then turn around and ask us to answer your questions? Sorry dude.
Good luck and take care.


(and these guys can't figure out why they are single? Yah, it's definitely "other people's" fault.)
 

Amargith

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Time for a break, it would seem :)
 

Starry

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Time for a break, it would seem :)

Or time to say "keep on doin what you're doin because it's clearly werkin. and yes. While everyone else it out experiencing life and human relationships...rest assured they are all thinking 'if only I could be that right'". ( and then move onto enjoying life/better things - some of us don't do breaks)
 

OrangeAppled

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Yeah, but why this almost always have to end with endless expansions ? Why there can't really be concrete conclusions or fundamantal shifts in direction ?

Fundamental shifts from who and how? No one is preventing you from a fundamental shift.
Concrete conclusions according to whose definition?
Who decides it's concluded? What makes it concrete?
I can conclude with this post. There ya go!

I went through all the replies and I can say this is exactly why I often like to skip talking to NFP people. I only gave a support/explanation to Chubber in another thread and in the end I have ended in this thread with walls of texts as explanation. Therefore now I have to be the bastard that will not gave not nearly sophistcated reply because:


1. Didn't even want to come here, but my post was took from another thread and placed here. (and I was wondering what I am doing in this thread)
2. I have real life stuff to handle so I don't have the time to write walls of texts as a reply.


It is exaclty the "we want to make you understand" that I have a problem with, which is comming from desire to be accepted. What doesn't really bother me on it's own but if you know something then you shouldn't be so unsure or indirect in your communication. For years I was thinking of myself as INTJ and I was generally unhappy, while in fact being surrounded with feelers was simply choking me and made me apathic towards myself and the world. Since such people tend to have principles under which I can't function properly, especially since these specific people are generally ruining their lives and they even know it. (but they prefer to be loyal to their feelings). Also I like to be able to ask how things are going withouth always going into what everybody feels, since that is very draining to me. However we are having the conversation somewhat in the wrong dimmension since it is Sx instinct that clashes with me and NFPs simply tend to be Sx doms or they have well developed Sx instinct.

:)


Yeah, I don't have any real life stuff to handle. Posting here is my job actually. Highlander is such a cool boss.

I am not seeking your understanding or acceptance...I was summoned in here by someone I do like and respect. I see clear & direct communication...maybe it's too advanced for you though.

Don't ask for understanding and acceptance from others with that attitude though. Why should anyone accommodate or care about your preference for talking about how things are going and not including feelings? It makes you unhappy? So? Why should they care about your unhappiness if you don't care about theirs?

If you don't care, hey, then don't care. Stop whining about it.

Btw. do you know anyone like me ?

Quite a few. Why should anyone try and understand where you are coming from though?
 

Amargith

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There is something to be said for the learning curve though, guys.

Sure, it would be nice to have people uphold that same standard of 'care', but that shit doesn't come natural to everyone, and I myself have found it very exhausting to be held to those kind of 'expert' standards on other areas that aren't in my interest field or area of expertise. All you can do is your best and hope others will be willing to see that that is in fact your best, and just help you along a bit with some good will :shrug:

And no, I'm not talking about enabling, just about accommodating the learning curve that comes with each field of expertise.
 

Starry

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There is something to be said for the learning curve though, guys.

Sure, it would be nice to have people uphold that same standard of 'care', but that shit doesn't come natural to everyone, and I myself have found it very exhausting to be held to those kind of 'expert' standards on other areas that aren't in my interest field or area of expertise. All you can do is your best and hope others will be willing to see that that is in fact your best, and just help you along a bit with some good will :shrug:

And no, I'm not talking about enabling, just about accommodating the learning curve that comes with each field of expertise.


I think this is a really good point and as someone that works with a variety of different age groups I know how important it is to be aware and sympathetic to different "stages of development". Likewise, while the lessons will most likely have preceded it...no ENFP makes it past the first day of public school without knowing what it feels like to be held to standards that are in direct opposition to what comes naturally for you. And not just that...but to have your inability to meet those standards attributed all kinds of incorrect and damaging reasons (<-so kinda the same thing that is occurring right now that we're attempting to address)...we know we need to protect others from experiencing the same.

Perhaps it's merely been while...but one of the things I haven't seen you do...is pop-up in a variety of different places on a site designed to *learn about* as opposed to *negatively characterize and criticize based on your own values and problems* other types...and negatively characterize and criticize another type based on your own values and problems. I also haven't seen you do this after many members from that type have reached out to you and made an earnest attempt to explain that there's something you are misunderstanding. I also haven't seen you insist you know better than a type you are not on a site designed to learn about other types....nor add insult to injury by insulting the type attempting to reach out.

^is that learning? Because I'm inclined to believe learning curves are for people that wish to learn...not scapegoat. Perhaps you are thinking of the "blaming others for your own shortcomings curve".
 

Amargith

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I think this is a really good point and as someone that works with a variety of different age groups I know how important it is to be aware and sympathetic to different "stages of development". Likewise, while the lessons will most likely have preceded it...no ENFP makes it past the first day of public school without knowing what it feels like to be held to standards that are in direct opposition to what comes naturally for you. And not just that...but to have your inability to meet those standards attributed all kinds of incorrect and damaging reasons (<-so kinda the same thing that is occurring right now that we're attempting to address)...we know we need to protect others from experiencing the same.

Perhaps it's merely been while...but one of the things I haven't seen you do...is pop-up in a variety of different places on a site designed to *learn about* as opposed to *negatively characterize and criticize based on your own values and problems* other types...and negatively characterize and criticize another type based on your own values and problems. I also haven't seen you do this after many members from that type have reached out to you and made an earnest attempt to explain that there's something you are misunderstanding. I also haven't seen you insist you know better than a type you are not on a type designed to learn about other types....nor add insult to injury by insulting the type attempting to reach out.

^is that learning? Because I'm inclined to believe learning curves are for people that wish to learn...not scapegoat. Perhaps you are thinking of the "blaming others for your own shortcomings curve".


Grin. Ask ENTP members that have been around for a while. Boy, can they tell you stories about my bias - and even to this day, I still clash easily with that type. And yes..that was my process to figure it out. Because the assumptions I had/perceptions I had were *so* wrong that, although I didn't mean to go there, I ended up automatically offending the other party or making them frustrated with the lack of understanding I was showing, because I had no common ground to start with. It was a sea of perceptional errors...and all I could do was wade through it all and try to find the actual first starting off point :shrug:

I felt I did nothing else but retreat and try again, retreat and try again, to map it all out. I actually started putting a disclaimer in posts regarding ENTPs that included the acknowledgement of my entp bias (and some entps took serious offence to that!), because I *knew* it would be present, as much as I tried to keep it to a minimum. And I was lucky to find a couple entps on here who...saw what I was doing, realized I didn't mean any harm, that I was just bumbling about and really just wanted to learn, and that they stuck by me as I tried to figure this shit out.

I went through similar processes, over the years on here, in controversial topics such as feminism, abortion, euthanasia and the like. And while I got my head banged in and I seriously left some damage onto others that I didn't mean for...I learned SO much from that.

So, I guess..I just can relate. I also know that if I hadn't kept going, I'dve gotten stuck in those assumptions, solidified them and become bitter about 'the way the world clearly is, and how much other people are in denial about their evil ways'
 

Virtual ghost

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Or time to say "keep on doin what you're doin because it's clearly werkin. and yes. While everyone else it out experiencing life and human relationships...rest assured they are all thinking 'if only I could be that right'". ( and then move onto enjoying life/better things - some of us don't do breaks)


Honestly ?

Actually for the last few weeks/months I am throwing various Fs, Ps and Sx doms out of my life or I am reducing their impact, since I don't want to deal with them. So to tell you the truth this feels great since they only cause me pain and apathy. Another truth is I am under social pressure not to be single and I am actually prefectly ok being single ... so the solution is actually to ignore or throw away people who have problems with that. I am single simply because for the last few years I didn't make a single serious move in that regard.


Also I would not even be in the thread in the case some of my posts were not quoted here and I don't even trully want to be in this thread. Since I don't really care about it and because of that I post nonesense purely for the sake of posting. (since I am bored)



So, this concludes the whole story for me in the case you have to know. I am out of here. :)
 

PeaceBaby

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I don't have a problem with someone arriving at a temporary conclusion that I don't understand something that is being expressed. I mean, I'm sure you and everyone else can relate to the thought... "damn, how dumb does this person think I am?" But in general...even without theories like Typology to account for a lot of it...I get that we all communicate differently and when you add to that things like...distractions, mood, bias, etc. misunderstandings and miscommunication are going to be happening. It would have to have been an exceptional situation for me to "lose sleep" over someone merely assuming I didn't understand something. I'm also rarely bothered by people assuming I didn't or don't understand...so that they take to kindly explaining.

The 'temporary conclusion/assumption' model that I already know you subscribe to is the ideal in my opinion...not just for the benefit of human relationships and the respectful treatment of others but for relative accuracy. If you assumed something about me during a discussion...you would ask me about it...and weigh my response when coming to a final conclusion. <-Fi likes.

Does the following help? My Dad is an ISTJ. When I express an emotion, he sees that as an END RESULT. Like, I have done all my internal parsing and THIS is my conclusion on the matter with the expressed emotion as some sort of proof. For example, my parents seem to make friends with new neighbors quite quickly. My ISFJ Mom will generally say something like, "Oh you will love new person so-and-so." Then I meet them and I get the internal radar (in the form of an emotional judgement) on one of them signalling to me something is "off". If I communicate that signal RAW, they don't see this as data along the path to conclusion - they see this AS my final judgement AND then I have historically been chastized for judging this person when they are clearly oh so nice and have to course-correct to reframe THEIR conclusion about me. It only took oh being their kid for 48 years for me to figure that one out. They are UNABLE to get Je out of the way in their stack. Everything to them sounds like Je. And their Je, willing to be corrected, sounds like Ji to me, which is FAR less concrete than it actually is (in a Je dom) and a LITTLE less concrete (in a Pi dom.)


This is what I see happening with VG. You're having this back and forth dance with the order of your cognitive functions.
 

Starry

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Grin. Ask ENTP members that have been around for a while. Boy, can they tell you stories about my bias - and even to this day, I still clash easily with that type. And yes..that was my process to figure it out. Because the assumptions I had/perceptions I had were *so* wrong that, although I didn't mean to go there, I ended up automatically offending the other party or making them frustrated with the lack of understanding I was showing, because I had no common ground to start with. It was a sea of perceptional errors...and all I could do was wade through it all and try to find the actual first starting off point :shrug:

I felt I did nothing else but retreat and try again, retreat and try again, to map it all out. I actually started putting a disclaimer in posts regarding ENTPs that included the acknowledgement of my entp bias (and some entps took serious offence to that!), because I *knew* it would be present, as much as I tried to keep it to a minimum. And I was lucky to find a couple entps on here who...saw what I was doing, realized I didn't mean any harm, that I was just bumbling about and really just wanted to learn, and that they stuck by me as I tried to figure this shit out.

I went through similar processes, over the years on here, in controversial topics such as feminism, abortion, euthanasia and the like. And while I got my head banged in and I seriously left some damage onto others that I didn't mean for...I learned SO much from that.

So, I guess..I just can relate. I also know that if I hadn't kept going, I'dve gotten stuck in those assumptions, solidified them and become bitter about 'the way the world clearly is, and how much other people are in denial about their evil ways'


Whoops...I wasn't considering the site before highlander. I mean, in my opinion having experienced it too is you were participating on the site in a style that everyone did (I'm kinda laughing thinking about the Wild West). Everyone did that to every type...battles broke out everywhere. People battled and retreated and battled again...

You've also worked hard to create a respectful site. You've got to admit that when all 16 types are being smeared and scapegoated by a larger population of members on a site that was rather undefined...when everyone is spreading misinformation, damaging characterizations...no big. But having a reputation of being more dedicated to respectful, intellectual study...and less members...including less members that don't get all of what is being discussed... then a few "I know more than an entire type of people"...really stand out.

I know all the hard work you've done on yourself being dedicated to personal and spiritual improvement...but if you arrived at first to highlander's site...it's hard to imagine all of what you described would have gone down with you. I'll believe your take on it though.
 

Amargith

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Whoops...I wasn't considering the site before highlander. I mean, in my opinion having experienced it too is you were participating on the site in a style that everyone did (I'm kinda laughing thinking about the Wild West). Everyone did that to every type...battles broke out everywhere. People battled and retreated and battled again...

You've also worked hard to create a respectful site. You've got to admit that when all 16 types are being smeared and scapegoated by a larger population of members on a site that was rather undefined...when everyone is spreading misinformation, damaging characterizations...no big. But having a reputation of being more dedicated to respectful, intellectual study...and less members...including less members that don't get all of what is and has been expressed in this regard... then a few "I know more than an entire type of people"...really stand out.

I know all the hard work you've done on yourself being dedicated to personal and spiritual improvement...but if you arrived at first to highlander's site...it's hard to imagine all of what you described would have gone down with you. I'll believe your take on it though.

I'dve still had those misunderstandings with those members (hell, i still do to this day) and we would've still gone round and round for a while, frustrating the crap out of each other with our assumptions about the other :)

We've come a long way, yes, but I did point out when we did make this shift that there would have to be leniency for a learning curve as that is what this site is about - understanding communication between *all* mbti types, and their preferences. Other types are going to have other preferences than us, and fuck up on other areas than us...and vice versa, as we all figure shit out. We have an Fi standard in communication that most Ts just...cannot be arsed to master. Nor should they have to. That said, it's not too much to ask that they make an effort when talking to us...and vice versa from our corner :shrug:
 

Starry

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Honestly ?

Actually for the last few weeks/months I am throwing various Fs, Ps and Sx doms out of my life or I am reducing their impact, since I don't want to deal with them. So to tell you the truth this feels great since they only cause me pain and apathy. Another truth is I am under social pressure not to be single and I am actually prefectly ok being single ... so the solution is actually to ignore or throw away people who have problems with that. I am single simply because for the last few years I didn't make a single serious move in that regard.


Also I would not even be in the thread in the case some of my posts were not quoted here and I don't even trully want to be in this thread. Since I don't really care about it and because of that I post nonesense purely for the sake of posting. (since I am bored)



So, this concludes the whole story for me in the case you have to know. I am out of here. :)


I'm glad you found a strategy that works for you and am genuinely sorry for wasting your time. I kept going back and forth on whether you just wanted to be right and bitch about the types you claim have done you such damage or were interested in trying to understand...and misjudged you. Again, I apologize and take solice in knowing you were bored.
 

Starry

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Does the following help? My Dad is an ISTJ. When I express an emotion, he sees that as an END RESULT. Like, I have done all my internal parsing and THIS is my conclusion on the matter with the expressed emotion as some sort of proof. For example, my parents seem to make friends with new neighbors quite quickly. My ISFJ Mom will generally say something like, "Oh you will love new person so-and-so." Then I meet them and I get the internal radar (in the form of an emotional judgement) on one of them signalling to me something is "off". If I communicate that signal RAW, they don't see this as data along the path to conclusion - they see this AS my final judgement AND then I have historically been chastized for judging this person when they are clearly oh so nice and have to course-correct to reframe THEIR conclusion about me. It only took oh being their kid for 48 years for me to figure that one out. They are UNABLE to get Je out of the way in their stack. Everything to them sounds like Je. And their Je, willing to be corrected, sounds like Ji to me, which is FAR less concrete than it actually is (in a Je dom) and a LITTLE less concrete (in a Pi dom.)


This is what I see happening with VG. You're having this back and forth dance with the order of your cognitive functions.


I think these kinds of breakdowns are helpful and appreciate you putting it out here. You are talking about 2 large populations of people here though...and 2 types I engage with on a daily basis without incident including an ISTJ e1 sister and best friend and co-workers up the ying-yang ...none of which either one of us are "throwing out of our lives due to all the pain we've suffered" so I'm cool with my end here.

(I admire your guys' dedication...but maybe it's the 7 in me...I give things a few tries and if there's no response whatsoever...I pack up shop. I have learned over the years that there are others out there)
 

Dreamer

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Having the most fun getting to know [MENTION=30122]Brain in a Jar[/MENTION] and comparing our argumentative styles and world views. It's fun getting to chat with an ENTP because in many ways they feel so similar, yet they'll throw you a curveball with that Ti/Fe approach to things. I love it! As much fun as it can be to hang around others of your same type, I typically find more enjoyment hanging around different types since there is SO much to learn and so much to add to your world perspective on things :happy2:

I can't leave [MENTION=25403]ZNP-TBA[/MENTION] out of this string of thought either as our conversations have also had a very similar experience as me and Brain. ENTPs are fun to troll around with but they usually last much longer than me since my Fi will kick in eventually and I'll feel gross that I'm acting in a way that isn't me. But for a few moments, the troll adventures are awesome :D

Edit: I guess this post isn't so much a "struggle" really, but these thoughts sort of just took flight after reading [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION]'s personal experience with ENTPs and the T/F divide in communication styles.
 

Lord Lavender

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Having the most fun getting to know [MENTION=30122]Brain in a Jar[/MENTION] and comparing our argumentative styles and world views. It's fun getting to chat with an ENTP because in many ways they feel so similar, yet they'll throw you a curveball with that Ti/Fe approach to things. I love it! As much fun as it can be to hang around others of your same type, I typically find more enjoyment hanging around different types since there is SO much to learn and so much to add to your world perspective on things :happy2:

I can't leave [MENTION=25403]ZNP-TBA[/MENTION] out of this string of thought either as our conversations have also had a very similar experience as me and Brain. ENTPs are fun to troll around with but they usually last much longer than me since my Fi will kick in eventually and I'll feel gross that I'm acting in a way that isn't me. But for a few moments, the troll adventures are awesome :D

Edit: I guess this post isn't so much a "struggle" really, but these thoughts sort of just took flight after reading [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION]'s personal experience with ENTPs and the T/F divide in communication styles.

Hey the feeling is mutual :). So similar but so different which makes you and other ENFPs fun to talk too. ENFPs to me are like the stern big bro in some ways with their Fi and Te while ENTPs are the annoying hyperactive little bro in many ways but it can also be the other way around strangely. Like when I get uptight with Fe stuff and you help me relax about it and likewise with Fi/Te stuff I can help get you a new idea. I like dragging your poor Fi on troll adventures :D.
 

Lord Lavender

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[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION]

Please tell me how you don't get on with ENTPs as this would be interesting.
 

Dreamer

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While I'm here. Any ENFP, preferably a type 2 or has understanding of this e type as seen through an ENFP feel like chatting a bit with me? I'd love to get some incite and hear of any personal experience in the struggles this type may come across. I really want to rid myself of some of the core issues and I'm really not sure how. :(

I could ask the forum for help but I'd like to chat with another ENFP if possible.

Thanks everyone!
 

Amargith

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Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Having the most fun getting to know [MENTION=30122]Brain in a Jar[/MENTION] and comparing our argumentative styles and world views. It's fun getting to chat with an ENTP because in many ways they feel so similar, yet they'll throw you a curveball with that Ti/Fe approach to things. I love it! As much fun as it can be to hang around others of your same type, I typically find more enjoyment hanging around different types since there is SO much to learn and so much to add to your world perspective on things :happy2:

I can't leave [MENTION=25403]ZNP-TBA[/MENTION] out of this string of thought either as our conversations have also had a very similar experience as me and Brain. ENTPs are fun to troll around with but they usually last much longer than me since my Fi will kick in eventually and I'll feel gross that I'm acting in a way that isn't me. But for a few moments, the troll adventures are awesome :D

Edit: I guess this post isn't so much a "struggle" really, but these thoughts sort of just took flight after reading [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION]'s personal experience with ENTPs and the T/F divide in communication styles.

[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION]

Please tell me how you don't get on with ENTPs as this would be interesting.


In my case, there is a lot of history attached to it as I grew up with several NTPs, which left its...well, mark on me.:)

These days, I can get on with ENTPs just fine, but it especially helps once you get to know them a bit. It can be hard to gauge what their 'jokes' exactly mean, and for me, understanding what the other person values (and figuring out exactly how harmful they are to others) is paramount. It is a lot easier to laugh and joke around with them once you actually know where you stand with them, in my experience.

I've found that their 'trolling' can be a mutual 'inside' joke between them and their 'target', and once I realise that, I have absolutely no problems with it, but due to my past, I tend to be acutely aware of anyone not respecting a 'no' from the other person, instead trying to one-up them, even if the other party isn't interested in playing the game. Hand in hand with that goes the tendency to only value intelligence and logic, above all else, and looking down on those that 'arent up to their standard', as such. And from that, a tendency to 'dehumanize' and 'revoke their respect as it has to be earned' for some reason, even down to the most basic levels can crop up.

And that...I tend to react to pretty badly.

I understand wanting to play games. I understand playing devil's advocate - I do that myself plenty. I even understand being uncomfortable with vulnerability and not wanting to necessarily be near people who are vulnerable. What I don't understand (or rather, I do understand, but won't abide) is the belief that anyone who shows vulnerability is weak and must be 'taught a lesson' or destroyed, just because you yourself don't know how to handle vulnerability. Or the belief that others should learn to play your game, if they want to be able to stop you, as otherwise it's their fault that you get away with what you get away. That others should 'toughen up' instead of whine at you that you should stop harassing them.

Again...let me re-iterate, this is certainly NOT true for every ENTP out there. But it is this trait that I find the hardest to deal with and I have in the past, due to my history, taken their jokes as a sign of that trait being present, due to being unable to gauge whether they meant their jokes or not. These days, I try to reserve judgement and find out first, and get to know them. I'm also starting to get better at actually shifting my perspective and more reliably predicting when it's likely to be a joke. But it's still unnerving.

I tend to only joke around roughly with others that are actually *IN* on the joke and that know me well enough to know Im joking (or, I'll announce in big neon letters that I'm joking, to avoid any misunderstandings), so it can be uncomfortable to not be in the know. That said, I have no qualms whatsoever with 'playing rough' and will do so myself, once I'm familiar with the person and on good terms with them - that can be an absolute blast :)


...is this what you were looking for?
 
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