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  1. #711
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I don't have a problem with someone arriving at a temporary conclusion that I don't understand something that is being expressed. I mean, I'm sure you and everyone else can relate to the thought... "damn, how dumb does this person think I am?" But in general...even without theories like Typology to account for a lot of it...I get that we all communicate differently and when you add to that things like...distractions, mood, bias, etc. misunderstandings and miscommunication are going to be happening. It would have to have been an exceptional situation for me to "lose sleep" over someone merely assuming I didn't understand something. I'm also rarely bothered by people assuming I didn't or don't understand...so that they take to kindly explaining.

    The 'temporary conclusion/assumption' model that I already know you subscribe to is the ideal in my opinion...not just for the benefit of human relationships and the respectful treatment of others but for relative accuracy. If you assumed something about me during a discussion...you would ask me about it...and weigh my response when coming to a final conclusion. <-Fi likes.
    Does the following help? My Dad is an ISTJ. When I express an emotion, he sees that as an END RESULT. Like, I have done all my internal parsing and THIS is my conclusion on the matter with the expressed emotion as some sort of proof. For example, my parents seem to make friends with new neighbors quite quickly. My ISFJ Mom will generally say something like, "Oh you will love new person so-and-so." Then I meet them and I get the internal radar (in the form of an emotional judgement) on one of them signalling to me something is "off". If I communicate that signal RAW, they don't see this as data along the path to conclusion - they see this AS my final judgement AND then I have historically been chastized for judging this person when they are clearly oh so nice and have to course-correct to reframe THEIR conclusion about me. It only took oh being their kid for 48 years for me to figure that one out. They are UNABLE to get Je out of the way in their stack. Everything to them sounds like Je. And their Je, willing to be corrected, sounds like Ji to me, which is FAR less concrete than it actually is (in a Je dom) and a LITTLE less concrete (in a Pi dom.)


    This is what I see happening with VG. You're having this back and forth dance with the order of your cognitive functions.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
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  2. #712
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Grin. Ask ENTP members that have been around for a while. Boy, can they tell you stories about my bias - and even to this day, I still clash easily with that type. And yes..that was my process to figure it out. Because the assumptions I had/perceptions I had were *so* wrong that, although I didn't mean to go there, I ended up automatically offending the other party or making them frustrated with the lack of understanding I was showing, because I had no common ground to start with. It was a sea of perceptional errors...and all I could do was wade through it all and try to find the actual first starting off point

    I felt I did nothing else but retreat and try again, retreat and try again, to map it all out. I actually started putting a disclaimer in posts regarding ENTPs that included the acknowledgement of my entp bias (and some entps took serious offence to that!), because I *knew* it would be present, as much as I tried to keep it to a minimum. And I was lucky to find a couple entps on here who...saw what I was doing, realized I didn't mean any harm, that I was just bumbling about and really just wanted to learn, and that they stuck by me as I tried to figure this shit out.

    I went through similar processes, over the years on here, in controversial topics such as feminism, abortion, euthanasia and the like. And while I got my head banged in and I seriously left some damage onto others that I didn't mean for...I learned SO much from that.

    So, I guess..I just can relate. I also know that if I hadn't kept going, I'dve gotten stuck in those assumptions, solidified them and become bitter about 'the way the world clearly is, and how much other people are in denial about their evil ways'

    Whoops...I wasn't considering the site before highlander. I mean, in my opinion having experienced it too is you were participating on the site in a style that everyone did (I'm kinda laughing thinking about the Wild West). Everyone did that to every type...battles broke out everywhere. People battled and retreated and battled again...

    You've also worked hard to create a respectful site. You've got to admit that when all 16 types are being smeared and scapegoated by a larger population of members on a site that was rather undefined...when everyone is spreading misinformation, damaging characterizations...no big. But having a reputation of being more dedicated to respectful, intellectual study...and less members...including less members that don't get all of what is being discussed... then a few "I know more than an entire type of people"...really stand out.

    I know all the hard work you've done on yourself being dedicated to personal and spiritual improvement...but if you arrived at first to highlander's site...it's hard to imagine all of what you described would have gone down with you. I'll believe your take on it though.

  3. #713
    Its time. Cassandra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Whoops...I wasn't considering the site before highlander. I mean, in my opinion having experienced it too is you were participating on the site in a style that everyone did (I'm kinda laughing thinking about the Wild West). Everyone did that to every type...battles broke out everywhere. People battled and retreated and battled again...

    You've also worked hard to create a respectful site. You've got to admit that when all 16 types are being smeared and scapegoated by a larger population of members on a site that was rather undefined...when everyone is spreading misinformation, damaging characterizations...no big. But having a reputation of being more dedicated to respectful, intellectual study...and less members...including less members that don't get all of what is and has been expressed in this regard... then a few "I know more than an entire type of people"...really stand out.

    I know all the hard work you've done on yourself being dedicated to personal and spiritual improvement...but if you arrived at first to highlander's site...it's hard to imagine all of what you described would have gone down with you. I'll believe your take on it though.
    I'dve still had those misunderstandings with those members (hell, i still do to this day) and we would've still gone round and round for a while, frustrating the crap out of each other with our assumptions about the other

    We've come a long way, yes, but I did point out when we did make this shift that there would have to be leniency for a learning curve as that is what this site is about - understanding communication between *all* mbti types, and their preferences. Other types are going to have other preferences than us, and fuck up on other areas than us...and vice versa, as we all figure shit out. We have an Fi standard in communication that most Ts just...cannot be arsed to master. Nor should they have to. That said, it's not too much to ask that they make an effort when talking to us...and vice versa from our corner
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  4. #714
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Honestly ?

    Actually for the last few weeks/months I am throwing various Fs, Ps and Sx doms out of my life or I am reducing their impact, since I don't want to deal with them. So to tell you the truth this feels great since they only cause me pain and apathy. Another truth is I am under social pressure not to be single and I am actually prefectly ok being single ... so the solution is actually to ignore or throw away people who have problems with that. I am single simply because for the last few years I didn't make a single serious move in that regard.


    Also I would not even be in the thread in the case some of my posts were not quoted here and I don't even trully want to be in this thread. Since I don't really care about it and because of that I post nonesense purely for the sake of posting. (since I am bored)



    So, this concludes the whole story for me in the case you have to know. I am out of here.

    I'm glad you found a strategy that works for you and am genuinely sorry for wasting your time. I kept going back and forth on whether you just wanted to be right and bitch about the types you claim have done you such damage or were interested in trying to understand...and misjudged you. Again, I apologize and take solice in knowing you were bored.

  5. #715
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Does the following help? My Dad is an ISTJ. When I express an emotion, he sees that as an END RESULT. Like, I have done all my internal parsing and THIS is my conclusion on the matter with the expressed emotion as some sort of proof. For example, my parents seem to make friends with new neighbors quite quickly. My ISFJ Mom will generally say something like, "Oh you will love new person so-and-so." Then I meet them and I get the internal radar (in the form of an emotional judgement) on one of them signalling to me something is "off". If I communicate that signal RAW, they don't see this as data along the path to conclusion - they see this AS my final judgement AND then I have historically been chastized for judging this person when they are clearly oh so nice and have to course-correct to reframe THEIR conclusion about me. It only took oh being their kid for 48 years for me to figure that one out. They are UNABLE to get Je out of the way in their stack. Everything to them sounds like Je. And their Je, willing to be corrected, sounds like Ji to me, which is FAR less concrete than it actually is (in a Je dom) and a LITTLE less concrete (in a Pi dom.)


    This is what I see happening with VG. You're having this back and forth dance with the order of your cognitive functions.

    I think these kinds of breakdowns are helpful and appreciate you putting it out here. You are talking about 2 large populations of people here though...and 2 types I engage with on a daily basis without incident including an ISTJ e1 sister and best friend and co-workers up the ying-yang ...none of which either one of us are "throwing out of our lives due to all the pain we've suffered" so I'm cool with my end here.

    (I admire your guys' dedication...but maybe it's the 7 in me...I give things a few tries and if there's no response whatsoever...I pack up shop. I have learned over the years that there are others out there)

  6. #716
    Dream without Hesitation Dreamer's Avatar
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    Having the most fun getting to know @Brain in a Jar and comparing our argumentative styles and world views. It's fun getting to chat with an ENTP because in many ways they feel so similar, yet they'll throw you a curveball with that Ti/Fe approach to things. I love it! As much fun as it can be to hang around others of your same type, I typically find more enjoyment hanging around different types since there is SO much to learn and so much to add to your world perspective on things

    I can't leave @ZNP-TBA out of this string of thought either as our conversations have also had a very similar experience as me and Brain. ENTPs are fun to troll around with but they usually last much longer than me since my Fi will kick in eventually and I'll feel gross that I'm acting in a way that isn't me. But for a few moments, the troll adventures are awesome

    Edit: I guess this post isn't so much a "struggle" really, but these thoughts sort of just took flight after reading @Amargith's personal experience with ENTPs and the T/F divide in communication styles.
    The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams
    -Eleanor Roosevelt


    ~Always, an Enthusiastic_Dreamer
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  7. #717
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiastic_Dreamer View Post
    Having the most fun getting to know @Brain in a Jar and comparing our argumentative styles and world views. It's fun getting to chat with an ENTP because in many ways they feel so similar, yet they'll throw you a curveball with that Ti/Fe approach to things. I love it! As much fun as it can be to hang around others of your same type, I typically find more enjoyment hanging around different types since there is SO much to learn and so much to add to your world perspective on things

    I can't leave @ZNP-TBA out of this string of thought either as our conversations have also had a very similar experience as me and Brain. ENTPs are fun to troll around with but they usually last much longer than me since my Fi will kick in eventually and I'll feel gross that I'm acting in a way that isn't me. But for a few moments, the troll adventures are awesome

    Edit: I guess this post isn't so much a "struggle" really, but these thoughts sort of just took flight after reading @Amargith's personal experience with ENTPs and the T/F divide in communication styles.
    Hey the feeling is mutual . So similar but so different which makes you and other ENFPs fun to talk too. ENFPs to me are like the stern big bro in some ways with their Fi and Te while ENTPs are the annoying hyperactive little bro in many ways but it can also be the other way around strangely. Like when I get uptight with Fe stuff and you help me relax about it and likewise with Fi/Te stuff I can help get you a new idea. I like dragging your poor Fi on troll adventures .
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  8. #718
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    @Amargith

    Please tell me how you don't get on with ENTPs as this would be interesting.

  9. #719
    Dream without Hesitation Dreamer's Avatar
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    While I'm here. Any ENFP, preferably a type 2 or has understanding of this e type as seen through an ENFP feel like chatting a bit with me? I'd love to get some incite and hear of any personal experience in the struggles this type may come across. I really want to rid myself of some of the core issues and I'm really not sure how.

    I could ask the forum for help but I'd like to chat with another ENFP if possible.

    Thanks everyone!
    The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams
    -Eleanor Roosevelt


    ~Always, an Enthusiastic_Dreamer

  10. #720
    Its time. Cassandra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiastic_Dreamer View Post
    Having the most fun getting to know @Brain in a Jar and comparing our argumentative styles and world views. It's fun getting to chat with an ENTP because in many ways they feel so similar, yet they'll throw you a curveball with that Ti/Fe approach to things. I love it! As much fun as it can be to hang around others of your same type, I typically find more enjoyment hanging around different types since there is SO much to learn and so much to add to your world perspective on things

    I can't leave @ZNP-TBA out of this string of thought either as our conversations have also had a very similar experience as me and Brain. ENTPs are fun to troll around with but they usually last much longer than me since my Fi will kick in eventually and I'll feel gross that I'm acting in a way that isn't me. But for a few moments, the troll adventures are awesome

    Edit: I guess this post isn't so much a "struggle" really, but these thoughts sort of just took flight after reading @Amargith's personal experience with ENTPs and the T/F divide in communication styles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brain in a Jar View Post
    @Amargith

    Please tell me how you don't get on with ENTPs as this would be interesting.

    In my case, there is a lot of history attached to it as I grew up with several NTPs, which left its...well, mark on me.

    These days, I can get on with ENTPs just fine, but it especially helps once you get to know them a bit. It can be hard to gauge what their 'jokes' exactly mean, and for me, understanding what the other person values (and figuring out exactly how harmful they are to others) is paramount. It is a lot easier to laugh and joke around with them once you actually know where you stand with them, in my experience.

    I've found that their 'trolling' can be a mutual 'inside' joke between them and their 'target', and once I realise that, I have absolutely no problems with it, but due to my past, I tend to be acutely aware of anyone not respecting a 'no' from the other person, instead trying to one-up them, even if the other party isn't interested in playing the game. Hand in hand with that goes the tendency to only value intelligence and logic, above all else, and looking down on those that 'arent up to their standard', as such. And from that, a tendency to 'dehumanize' and 'revoke their respect as it has to be earned' for some reason, even down to the most basic levels can crop up.

    And that...I tend to react to pretty badly.

    I understand wanting to play games. I understand playing devil's advocate - I do that myself plenty. I even understand being uncomfortable with vulnerability and not wanting to necessarily be near people who are vulnerable. What I don't understand (or rather, I do understand, but won't abide) is the belief that anyone who shows vulnerability is weak and must be 'taught a lesson' or destroyed, just because you yourself don't know how to handle vulnerability. Or the belief that others should learn to play your game, if they want to be able to stop you, as otherwise it's their fault that you get away with what you get away. That others should 'toughen up' instead of whine at you that you should stop harassing them.

    Again...let me re-iterate, this is certainly NOT true for every ENTP out there. But it is this trait that I find the hardest to deal with and I have in the past, due to my history, taken their jokes as a sign of that trait being present, due to being unable to gauge whether they meant their jokes or not. These days, I try to reserve judgement and find out first, and get to know them. I'm also starting to get better at actually shifting my perspective and more reliably predicting when it's likely to be a joke. But it's still unnerving.

    I tend to only joke around roughly with others that are actually *IN* on the joke and that know me well enough to know Im joking (or, I'll announce in big neon letters that I'm joking, to avoid any misunderstandings), so it can be uncomfortable to not be in the know. That said, I have no qualms whatsoever with 'playing rough' and will do so myself, once I'm familiar with the person and on good terms with them - that can be an absolute blast


    ...is this what you were looking for?
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