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  1. #701
    Its time. Cassandra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Yeah, but why this almost always have to end with endless expansions ? Why there can't really be concrete conclusions or fundamantal shifts in direction ?
    Hah, because you first have to be able to see eye to eye before you can get to conclusions -and that requires a fundamental understanding of each others povs...and that be complex in this case

    In short, this stuff is complex, highly abstract and highly complex, and the devil is in this case in the nuance, making it that much fuzzier.

    Add to that that you re both coming from a place of frustration and past repeated baggage on this area and well...this shit takes time, ine. In most cases that ive sern it takes talking through this shit a serious number of times, while feeling frustrated that you re going in a loop and seemingly going nowhere before you get that shift youre asking for, that internal click and 'aha' moment on both sides.

    External shit just tends to be easier to address.

    It may not feel like it, but you are in fact making progress

  2. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I haven't seen this conversation until now and only just skimmed it.

    I'm happy to participate, but I haven't identified a clear topic yet other than "NFPs annoy someone".

    So regarding this question....I may be interpreting it incorrectly, given I am not totally clear on the context.

    But here goes... @Virtual ghost

    Criticism often stems from someone feeling someone else is wrong and you need to correct them. The problem here is - is this standard you are measuring them with really objective?

    The vast majority of the time, the standard is really upholding one or both of these things:
    - A value you prioritise above other values.
    Every action or goal you are choosing above other things. You asserting values at every moment. This is the perspective of the Feeling types. If an NFP is, say, bad at time management, it certainly may be a flaw, but it often stems from prioritizing differently. It's not personal. They aren't disrespecting other people's time intentionally or blowing off a deadline intentionally. And the decision they make is rational in the sense that they have prioritized something they consider more valuable than time.

    So when you ascribe bad motive to the NFP, they are hearing that something they feel is frivolous (time) is being used to judge their entire character. And to them, this can be nonsense, because they feel that what motivates them is so much bigger than time.

    An alternate approach is to not ascribe bad motive or judge character based on a difference in how you value stuff in reality. It is logical to you to take ABC steps to reach Y goal by X time, but to the NFP, something more important than Y goal was given precedence.
    This means recognizing that your own actions and goals, on some level, stem from a premise of value. You have deemed it worthwhile and significant, etc. Realizing that, you have to recognize that not everyone assigns the same value to things.

    - Your interpretation of reality and events therein.
    The illustration of several people witnessing a crime and giving different accounts of it is applicable here. We don't all experience reality the same way. We frame things differently, and it's not just situations, but our entire life experience that creates a bigger context. Some criticism can basically assert that your interpretation is somehow THE interpretation. It is the TRUTH of reality. But it's not. We all have bias, blindspots, incomplete information, etc.

    When other people don't live up to your standards, it is not necessarily deliberate defiance of objective standards or total incompetency or anything like that. They don't interpret reality the same way. Things don't mean to them what they mean to you. This obviously connects to the previous point about differences in values. This means they have different standards.

    This means criticism often stems from a person's need to assert they are RIGHT. They need to feel their standards are CORRECT, because this validates their perspective and experience. It boosts their EGO. Obviously, this in itself is a perspective, and IMO, it is a common one of NFPs that your standards are not objective, but a preference.

    Things are logical only if you are prioritizing a particular goal.
    Imagine that someone is prioritizing something very different...now their actions are given totally different meaning, and may actually make quite a bit of sense. To do this, you have to accept there is possibly not one right way or that your value is not objectively more important; that can be threatening for some people.

    Also, emotional content for Feeling types often doesn't cloud communication. Rather, it clarifies, because it signifies value. The tone of voice, the little flairs in phrasing, etc, this tells you how important something or someone is to you and why someone else should be motivated to bother with what you value. When emotional communication is done poorly, you can inadvertently send value messages you don't even intend to send. Basically, you can't assume that others will prioritize as you do, and if you want them to prioritize what you do, then you have to appeal to what they value. Rapport does this. Feeling types often value human relationships - seeing these as a fundamental aspect of human happiness and survival - and so people DO motivate others by appealing to this. It is in essence motivating others by saying, "uphold this value of mine because you value ME." That can be some manipulative stuff right there, yeah, but it's not irrational if you consider it a part of a larger system of interacting for mutual benefit. It's really a cornerstone for concepts like respect and honor and the golden rule.

    So maybe you mean to just communicate facts or correct an error - nothing personal! Except someone hears "You are stupid, weak and incompetent. I don't respect you or what you value. I am RIGHT. You are WRONG and BAD."

    Hearing that, someone doesn't hear an upholding of objective standards, but judgement stemming from a personal bias. You just demotivated them. The "logical" thing for them is to devalue you in return (because they experienced you as the instigator of this dynamic) and find situations and people which value their abilities and also share what they value.

    That's average people too, or particularly, average NFPs. Really, really, really emotionally mature people will react less and have insight into why someone is poor at emotional messages. But most people are, of course, average.


    This is awesome. I'll mark it for future use.
    Thanks so much for this!
    Likes Cassandra, OrangeAppled liked this post

  3. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    However since I ended here anyway I have actual question.



    How ENFP people feel about concepts such as this one.





    or







    Btw. do you know anyone like me ?


    You are going to reject us and then turn around and ask us to answer your questions? Sorry dude.
    Good luck and take care.


    (and these guys can't figure out why they are single? Yah, it's definitely "other people's" fault.)

  4. #704
    Its time. Cassandra's Avatar
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    Time for a break, it would seem

  5. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Time for a break, it would seem
    Or time to say "keep on doin what you're doin because it's clearly werkin. and yes. While everyone else it out experiencing life and human relationships...rest assured they are all thinking 'if only I could be that right'". ( and then move onto enjoying life/better things - some of us don't do breaks)
    Likes OrangeAppled liked this post

  6. #706
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Yeah, but why this almost always have to end with endless expansions ? Why there can't really be concrete conclusions or fundamantal shifts in direction ?
    Fundamental shifts from who and how? No one is preventing you from a fundamental shift.
    Concrete conclusions according to whose definition?
    Who decides it's concluded? What makes it concrete?
    I can conclude with this post. There ya go!

    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    I went through all the replies and I can say this is exactly why I often like to skip talking to NFP people. I only gave a support/explanation to Chubber in another thread and in the end I have ended in this thread with walls of texts as explanation. Therefore now I have to be the bastard that will not gave not nearly sophistcated reply because:


    1. Didn't even want to come here, but my post was took from another thread and placed here. (and I was wondering what I am doing in this thread)
    2. I have real life stuff to handle so I don't have the time to write walls of texts as a reply.


    It is exaclty the "we want to make you understand" that I have a problem with, which is comming from desire to be accepted. What doesn't really bother me on it's own but if you know something then you shouldn't be so unsure or indirect in your communication. For years I was thinking of myself as INTJ and I was generally unhappy, while in fact being surrounded with feelers was simply choking me and made me apathic towards myself and the world. Since such people tend to have principles under which I can't function properly, especially since these specific people are generally ruining their lives and they even know it. (but they prefer to be loyal to their feelings). Also I like to be able to ask how things are going withouth always going into what everybody feels, since that is very draining to me. However we are having the conversation somewhat in the wrong dimmension since it is Sx instinct that clashes with me and NFPs simply tend to be Sx doms or they have well developed Sx instinct.


    Yeah, I don't have any real life stuff to handle. Posting here is my job actually. Highlander is such a cool boss.

    I am not seeking your understanding or acceptance...I was summoned in here by someone I do like and respect. I see clear & direct communication...maybe it's too advanced for you though.

    Don't ask for understanding and acceptance from others with that attitude though. Why should anyone accommodate or care about your preference for talking about how things are going and not including feelings? It makes you unhappy? So? Why should they care about your unhappiness if you don't care about theirs?

    If you don't care, hey, then don't care. Stop whining about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Btw. do you know anyone like me ?
    Quite a few. Why should anyone try and understand where you are coming from though?
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe
    Likes Starry liked this post

  7. #707
    Its time. Cassandra's Avatar
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    There is something to be said for the learning curve though, guys.

    Sure, it would be nice to have people uphold that same standard of 'care', but that shit doesn't come natural to everyone, and I myself have found it very exhausting to be held to those kind of 'expert' standards on other areas that aren't in my interest field or area of expertise. All you can do is your best and hope others will be willing to see that that is in fact your best, and just help you along a bit with some good will

    And no, I'm not talking about enabling, just about accommodating the learning curve that comes with each field of expertise.

  8. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    There is something to be said for the learning curve though, guys.

    Sure, it would be nice to have people uphold that same standard of 'care', but that shit doesn't come natural to everyone, and I myself have found it very exhausting to be held to those kind of 'expert' standards on other areas that aren't in my interest field or area of expertise. All you can do is your best and hope others will be willing to see that that is in fact your best, and just help you along a bit with some good will

    And no, I'm not talking about enabling, just about accommodating the learning curve that comes with each field of expertise.

    I think this is a really good point and as someone that works with a variety of different age groups I know how important it is to be aware and sympathetic to different "stages of development". Likewise, while the lessons will most likely have preceded it...no ENFP makes it past the first day of public school without knowing what it feels like to be held to standards that are in direct opposition to what comes naturally for you. And not just that...but to have your inability to meet those standards attributed all kinds of incorrect and damaging reasons (<-so kinda the same thing that is occurring right now that we're attempting to address)...we know we need to protect others from experiencing the same.

    Perhaps it's merely been while...but one of the things I haven't seen you do...is pop-up in a variety of different places on a site designed to *learn about* as opposed to *negatively characterize and criticize based on your own values and problems* other types...and negatively characterize and criticize another type based on your own values and problems. I also haven't seen you do this after many members from that type have reached out to you and made an earnest attempt to explain that there's something you are misunderstanding. I also haven't seen you insist you know better than a type you are not on a site designed to learn about other types....nor add insult to injury by insulting the type attempting to reach out.

    ^is that learning? Because I'm inclined to believe learning curves are for people that wish to learn...not scapegoat. Perhaps you are thinking of the "blaming others for your own shortcomings curve".

  9. #709
    Its time. Cassandra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I think this is a really good point and as someone that works with a variety of different age groups I know how important it is to be aware and sympathetic to different "stages of development". Likewise, while the lessons will most likely have preceded it...no ENFP makes it past the first day of public school without knowing what it feels like to be held to standards that are in direct opposition to what comes naturally for you. And not just that...but to have your inability to meet those standards attributed all kinds of incorrect and damaging reasons (<-so kinda the same thing that is occurring right now that we're attempting to address)...we know we need to protect others from experiencing the same.

    Perhaps it's merely been while...but one of the things I haven't seen you do...is pop-up in a variety of different places on a site designed to *learn about* as opposed to *negatively characterize and criticize based on your own values and problems* other types...and negatively characterize and criticize another type based on your own values and problems. I also haven't seen you do this after many members from that type have reached out to you and made an earnest attempt to explain that there's something you are misunderstanding. I also haven't seen you insist you know better than a type you are not on a type designed to learn about other types....nor add insult to injury by insulting the type attempting to reach out.

    ^is that learning? Because I'm inclined to believe learning curves are for people that wish to learn...not scapegoat. Perhaps you are thinking of the "blaming others for your own shortcomings curve".

    Grin. Ask ENTP members that have been around for a while. Boy, can they tell you stories about my bias - and even to this day, I still clash easily with that type. And yes..that was my process to figure it out. Because the assumptions I had/perceptions I had were *so* wrong that, although I didn't mean to go there, I ended up automatically offending the other party or making them frustrated with the lack of understanding I was showing, because I had no common ground to start with. It was a sea of perceptional errors...and all I could do was wade through it all and try to find the actual first starting off point

    I felt I did nothing else but retreat and try again, retreat and try again, to map it all out. I actually started putting a disclaimer in posts regarding ENTPs that included the acknowledgement of my entp bias (and some entps took serious offence to that!), because I *knew* it would be present, as much as I tried to keep it to a minimum. And I was lucky to find a couple entps on here who...saw what I was doing, realized I didn't mean any harm, that I was just bumbling about and really just wanted to learn, and that they stuck by me as I tried to figure this shit out.

    I went through similar processes, over the years on here, in controversial topics such as feminism, abortion, euthanasia and the like. And while I got my head banged in and I seriously left some damage onto others that I didn't mean for...I learned SO much from that.

    So, I guess..I just can relate. I also know that if I hadn't kept going, I'dve gotten stuck in those assumptions, solidified them and become bitter about 'the way the world clearly is, and how much other people are in denial about their evil ways'

  10. #710
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Or time to say "keep on doin what you're doin because it's clearly werkin. and yes. While everyone else it out experiencing life and human relationships...rest assured they are all thinking 'if only I could be that right'". ( and then move onto enjoying life/better things - some of us don't do breaks)

    Honestly ?

    Actually for the last few weeks/months I am throwing various Fs, Ps and Sx doms out of my life or I am reducing their impact, since I don't want to deal with them. So to tell you the truth this feels great since they only cause me pain and apathy. Another truth is I am under social pressure not to be single and I am actually prefectly ok being single ... so the solution is actually to ignore or throw away people who have problems with that. I am single simply because for the last few years I didn't make a single serious move in that regard.


    Also I would not even be in the thread in the case some of my posts were not quoted here and I don't even trully want to be in this thread. Since I don't really care about it and because of that I post nonesense purely for the sake of posting. (since I am bored)



    So, this concludes the whole story for me in the case you have to know. I am out of here.

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