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  1. #691
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post

    Look, VG..you're a fan of efficiency, aren't you? What Starry is trying to tell you is that our perceptions may get shared by other NTJs, but they're not necessarily correctly interpreted by you and therefore will fuck up efficient communication between you and ENFPs. Qualifiers and asking questions for confirmation on your perceptions and *believing* them/ taking their word for it/giving them the benefit of the doubt when they tell you that those interpretations of your perceptions are in fact incorrect is a great way to start rectifying that efficiency problem in communication

    One way to do that is to use words like 'seems', 'imho', 'comes off as', etc, instead of absolute statements (aka, 'you are', 'this proves that', and so on) - > qualifiers. Rephrasing your absolute statements as questions, is another. Ask for confirmation and be open to being wrong. Assumptions tend to be the death of efficient communication, ime. That's what I *think* (see what I did there :P) @Starry is getting at.

    My biggest problems with NFPs are practical ones not verbal one. Stuff like: "We said in 2 PM while now it is 4 PM ... and still nothing is happening" type of thing. These are simply my experinces and others attack those NFPs for this more than I do.



    On the other hand this is why I like to keep distance from feelers in general, since talking to them often feels as a chore. Because there are so many rules and they often go searching for the emotion in the message ... and therefrore ignore the actual message. There are many people who are publically prised constantly for their verbal skills and I think they are actually pretty bad communicators, since they seem fake, their factual correctness is questionable, they are trying to please people but in the end lose the point, etc. I know fairly well what is "efficient communication" since I am being lectured on this my entire life, but none the less I think that in many cases this is actually "inefficient communication". Because it often fails at data transfer and it tends to manipulate people. Just because all the cool kids are doing it that doesn't make it right. I want conclusions and if conversations is full of "it seems, maybe if, thank you etc." then I will probably start to lose interest quickly. You shouldn't be the obvious jerk to people but you should be able to ask for info without getting it with all the stuff that only cloud the point.

    We already had this conversation btw.

  2. #692
    Its time. Cassandra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    My biggest problems with NFPs are practical ones not verbal one. Stuff like: "We said in 2 PM while now it is 4 PM ... and still nothing is happening" type of thing. These are simply my experinces and others attack those NFPs for this more than I do.



    On the other hand this is why I like to keep distance from feelers in general, since talking to them often feels as a chore. Because there are so many rules and they often go searching for the emotion in the message ... and therefrore ignore the actual message. There are many people who are publically prised constantly for their verbal skills and I think they are actually pretty bad communicators, since they seem fake, their factual correctness is questionable, they are trying to please people but in the end lose the point, etc. I know fairly well what is "efficient communication" since I am being lectured on this my entire life, but none the less I think that in many cases this is actually "inefficient communication". Because it often fails at data transfer and it tends to manipulate people. Just because all the cool kids are doing it that doesn't make it right. I want conclusions and if conversations is full of "it seems, maybe if, thank you etc." then I will probably start to lose interest quickly. You shouldn't be the obvious jerk to people but you should be able to ask for info without getting it with all the stuff that only cloud the point.

    We already had this conversation btw.
    I'm aware - I figured Id try a different angle :P

    Look, I'm not disagreeing with you, but those qualifier words can work really well when you're not actually sure of something/aren't capable of being sure about something. And it tends to work wonders when discussing people because people tend to be so complex - it's easy to miss important pieces of info that way. Im all for blunt, straightforward communication on external shit that needs doing though. We do share that Te preference, ya know :P
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  3. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    What you see as arrogance someone else would see as honesty, efficency focus, determination, etc. I don't think they claim to know you that well as much as they show how far you are from their expectations or what they see as reasonable. I admit, sometimes NFP logic doesn't make much sense to me to the point that the person seems delusional or it lies to hide blame or guilt.
    ^^I appreciate the phrasing of the bolded very much - thank you. And I understand due to the fact some of what I'm attempting to describe is difficult for me to access and put words to so I can only imagine what your experience is. I just appreciate you hanging in there. I mean, the primary reason I started this whole thing is because I saw you saying again something along the lines of "NFPs don't like all these aspects of your personality...criticism, aggressiveness, etc" (this is where I got 'lame personality')...and yet I know that is completely wrong. Obviously, I don't speak for every ENFP...but I can say with a high degree of confidence...that you have a fantastic personality that most ENFPs would adore. I'm trying to tell you that it's not your criticism...it is how you are criticizing. Like, I'm trying to get you to see that what you are doing is not some inherent thing embedded deep in the recesses of your personality that you could never alter...no, there's an easy fix (you just did it above no problem and it doesn't appear like your entire being was compromised or anything in doing it.) I'm telling you this because you are wrong in your understanding of us. I'm telling you this because I don't like you thinking it is you and not what is merely in my opinion a bad habit. And I'm telling you this because I think it would improve your interactions with many people...not just NFPs. And I'm telling you this because you are a great person and are worth my time even if you decide I am delusional.

    I've considered going back through the NFP threads to find how members who came before me described the same thing because I do know I'm not always the best at describing things. I've also considered calling on an INFP to explain it since they are better at this than I am. @OrangeAppled can you explain why we are not sensitive to criticism but rather sensitive to others forcing their version of reality on us...insisting they are right?

    I don't see what you're referring to as honesty (and by the way I get in trouble each and every day for how blunt/honest I am)...because when we are honest with ourselves we know we are not always...even if it is on a temporary basis...right. What you are calling honesty appears to lead to the most wrong.






    Aren't you big fan of pushing people's buttons ?[/QUOTE]
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  4. #694
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    Whoops...what Amargith said.

  5. #695
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I've considered going back through the NFP threads to find how members who came before me described the same thing because I do know I'm not always the best at describing things. I've also considered calling on an INFP to explain it since they are better at this than I am. @OrangeAppled can you explain why we are not sensitive to criticism but rather sensitive to others forcing their version of reality on us...insisting they are right?
    I haven't seen this conversation until now and only just skimmed it.

    I'm happy to participate, but I haven't identified a clear topic yet other than "NFPs annoy someone".

    So regarding this question....I may be interpreting it incorrectly, given I am not totally clear on the context.

    But here goes... @Virtual ghost

    Criticism often stems from someone feeling someone else is wrong and you need to correct them. The problem here is - is this standard you are measuring them with really objective?

    The vast majority of the time, the standard is really upholding one or both of these things:
    - A value you prioritise above other values.
    Every action or goal you are choosing above other things. You asserting values at every moment. This is the perspective of the Feeling types. If an NFP is, say, bad at time management, it certainly may be a flaw, but it often stems from prioritizing differently. It's not personal. They aren't disrespecting other people's time intentionally or blowing off a deadline intentionally. And the decision they make is rational in the sense that they have prioritized something they consider more valuable than time.

    So when you ascribe bad motive to the NFP, they are hearing that something they feel is frivolous (time) is being used to judge their entire character. And to them, this can be nonsense, because they feel that what motivates them is so much bigger than time.

    An alternate approach is to not ascribe bad motive or judge character based on a difference in how you value stuff in reality. It is logical to you to take ABC steps to reach Y goal by X time, but to the NFP, something more important than Y goal was given precedence.
    This means recognizing that your own actions and goals, on some level, stem from a premise of value. You have deemed it worthwhile and significant, etc. Realizing that, you have to recognize that not everyone assigns the same value to things.

    - Your interpretation of reality and events therein.
    The illustration of several people witnessing a crime and giving different accounts of it is applicable here. We don't all experience reality the same way. We frame things differently, and it's not just situations, but our entire life experience that creates a bigger context. Some criticism can basically assert that your interpretation is somehow THE interpretation. It is the TRUTH of reality. But it's not. We all have bias, blindspots, incomplete information, etc.

    When other people don't live up to your standards, it is not necessarily deliberate defiance of objective standards or total incompetency or anything like that. They don't interpret reality the same way. Things don't mean to them what they mean to you. This obviously connects to the previous point about differences in values. This means they have different standards.

    This means criticism often stems from a person's need to assert they are RIGHT. They need to feel their standards are CORRECT, because this validates their perspective and experience. It boosts their EGO. Obviously, this in itself is a perspective, and IMO, it is a common one of NFPs that your standards are not objective, but a preference.

    Things are logical only if you are prioritizing a particular goal.
    Imagine that someone is prioritizing something very different...now their actions are given totally different meaning, and may actually make quite a bit of sense. To do this, you have to accept there is possibly not one right way or that your value is not objectively more important; that can be threatening for some people.

    Also, emotional content for Feeling types often doesn't cloud communication. Rather, it clarifies, because it signifies value. The tone of voice, the little flairs in phrasing, etc, this tells you how important something or someone is to you and why someone else should be motivated to bother with what you value. When emotional communication is done poorly, you can inadvertently send value messages you don't even intend to send. Basically, you can't assume that others will prioritize as you do, and if you want them to prioritize what you do, then you have to appeal to what they value. Rapport does this. Feeling types often value human relationships - seeing these as a fundamental aspect of human happiness and survival - and so people DO motivate others by appealing to this. It is in essence motivating others by saying, "uphold this value of mine because you value ME." That can be some manipulative stuff right there, yeah, but it's not irrational if you consider it a part of a larger system of interacting for mutual benefit. It's really a cornerstone for concepts like respect and honor and the golden rule.

    So maybe you mean to just communicate facts or correct an error - nothing personal! Except someone hears "You are stupid, weak and incompetent. I don't respect you or what you value. I am RIGHT. You are WRONG and BAD."

    Hearing that, someone doesn't hear an upholding of objective standards, but judgement stemming from a personal bias. You just demotivated them. The "logical" thing for them is to devalue you in return (because they experienced you as the instigator of this dynamic) and find situations and people which value their abilities and also share what they value.

    That's average people too, or particularly, average NFPs. Really, really, really emotionally mature people will react less and have insight into why someone is poor at emotional messages. But most people are, of course, average.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe
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  6. #696
    Dream without Hesitation Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I haven't seen this conversation until now and only just skimmed it.

    I'm happy to participate, but I haven't identified a clear topic yet other than "NFPs annoy someone".

    So regarding this question....I may be interpreting it incorrectly, given I am not totally clear on the context.

    But here goes... @Virtual ghost

    Criticism often stems from someone feeling someone else is wrong and you need to correct them. The problem here is - is this standard you are measuring them with really objective?

    The vast majority of the time, the standard is really upholding one or both of these things:
    - A value you prioritise above other values.
    Every action or goal you are choosing above other things. You asserting values at every moment. This is the perspective of the Feeling types. If an NFP is, say, bad at time management, it certainly may be a flaw, but it often stems from prioritizing differently. It's not personal. They aren't disrespecting other people's time intentionally or blowing off a deadline intentionally. And the decision they make is rational in the sense that they have prioritized something they consider more valuable than time.

    So when you ascribe bad motive to the NFP, they are hearing that something they feel is frivolous (time) is being used to judge their entire character. And to them, this can be nonsense, because they feel that what motivates them is so much bigger than time.

    An alternate approach is to not ascribe bad motive or judge character based on a difference in how you value stuff in reality. It is logical to you to take ABC steps to reach Y goal by X time, but to the NFP, something more important than Y goal was given precedence.
    This means recognizing that your own actions and goals, on some level, stem from a premise of value. You have deemed it worthwhile and significant, etc. Realizing that, you have to recognize that not everyone assigns the same value to things.


    - Your interpretation of reality and events therein.
    The illustration of several people witnessing a crime and giving different accounts of it is applicable here. We don't all experience reality the same way. We frame things differently, and it's not just situations, but our entire life experience that creates a bigger context. Some criticism can basically assert that your interpretation is somehow THE interpretation. It is the TRUTH of reality. But it's not. We all have bias, blindspots, incomplete information, etc.

    When other people don't live up to your standards, it is not necessarily deliberate defiance of objective standards or total incompetency or anything like that. They don't interpret reality the same way. Things don't mean to them what they mean to you. This obviously connects to the previous point about differences in values. This means they have different standards.

    This means criticism often stems from a person's need to assert they are RIGHT. They need to feel their standards are CORRECT, because this validates their perspective and experience. It boosts their EGO. Obviously, this in itself is a perspective, and IMO, it is a common one of NFPs that your standards are not objective, but a preference.

    Things are logical only if you are prioritizing a particular goal.
    Imagine that someone is prioritizing something very different...now their actions are given totally different meaning, and may actually make quite a bit of sense. To do this, you have to accept there is possibly not one right way or that your value is not objectively more important; that can be threatening for some people.

    Also, emotional content for Feeling types often doesn't cloud communication. Rather, it clarifies, because it signifies value. The tone of voice, the little flairs in phrasing, etc, this tells you how important something or someone is to you and why someone else should be motivated to bother with what you value. When emotional communication is done poorly, you can inadvertently send value messages you don't even intend to send. Basically, you can't assume that others will prioritize as you do, and if you want them to prioritize what you do, then you have to appeal to what they value. Rapport does this. Feeling types often value human relationships - seeing these as a fundamental aspect of human happiness and survival - and so people DO motivate others by appealing to this. It is in essence motivating others by saying, "uphold this value of mine because you value ME." That can be some manipulative stuff right there, yeah, but it's not irrational if you consider it a part of a larger system of interacting for mutual benefit. It's really a cornerstone for concepts like respect and honor and the golden rule.

    So maybe you mean to just communicate facts or correct an error - nothing personal! Except someone hears "You are stupid, weak and incompetent. I don't respect you or what you value. I am RIGHT. You are WRONG and BAD."

    Hearing that, someone doesn't hear an upholding of objective standards, but judgement stemming from a personal bias. You just demotivated them. The "logical" thing for them is to devalue you in return (because they experienced you as the instigator of this dynamic) and find situations and people which value their abilities and also share what they value.

    That's average people too, or particularly, average NFPs. Really, really, really emotionally mature people will react less and have insight into why someone is poor at emotional messages. But most people are, of course, average.
    While I appreciate everything you have said above, the bold hit close to home for me. It's definitely been a weak spot between me and my younger INTJ brother since he viewed my scattered thought and "irrational" behavior as offenses, or this is a good one, as a sign of immaturity, when it couldn't be further from the truth. I didn't want to be late for this or that, it was just as you mentioned, my list of priorities was flipped around from his, and our communication growing up was at times tense because we saw on completely different standards.

    Reading the second portion I placed in bold, is basically my life story Being the only P in a family of Js has it's difficulties.
    The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams
    -Eleanor Roosevelt


    ~Always, an Enthusiastic_Dreamer

  7. #697
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I went through all the replies and I can say this is exactly why I often like to skip talking to NFP people. I only gave a support/explanation to Chubber in another thread and in the end I have ended in this thread with walls of texts as explanation. Therefore now I have to be the bastard that will not gave not nearly sophistcated reply because:


    1. Didn't even want to come here, but my post was took from another thread and placed here. (and I was wondering what I am doing in this thread)
    2. I have real life stuff to handle so I don't have the time to write walls of texts as a reply.


    It is exaclty the "we want to make you understand" that I have a problem with, which is comming from desire to be accepted. What doesn't really bother me on it's own but if you know something then you shouldn't be so unsure or indirect in your communication. For years I was thinking of myself as INTJ and I was generally unhappy, while in fact being surrounded with feelers was simply choking me and made me apathic towards myself and the world. Since such people tend to have principles under which I can't function properly, especially since these specific people are generally ruining their lives and they even know it. (but they prefer to be loyal to their feelings). Also I like to be able to ask how things are going withouth always going into what everybody feels, since that is very draining to me. However we are having the conversation somewhat in the wrong dimmension since it is Sx instinct that clashes with me and NFPs simply tend to be Sx doms or they have well developed Sx instinct.

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  8. #698
    Its time. Cassandra's Avatar
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    Oh hon.. That is something you can say right of the bat. An interaction is a two way street. If this isnt a convo you want to have, its absolutely ok to tell the other thanks but no thanks.

  9. #699
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Oh hon.. That is something you can say right of the bat. An interaction is a two way street. If this isnt a convo you want to have, its absolutely ok to tell the other thanks but no thanks.
    Yeah, but why this almost always have to end with endless expansions ? Why there can't really be concrete conclusions or fundamantal shifts in direction ?

  10. #700
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    However since I ended here anyway I have actual question.



    How ENFP people feel about concepts such as this one.


    1w9s:
    Can have an aura of 9-like calm although eruptions of temper are possible.
    Often have a detached quality and can be mistaken for Fives.
    Tendency to formulate and embrace principles that have little human content, but this is also their strength.
    When awakened, may be objective and balanced, cool and moderate in their evaluations.
    More entranced, might have perfectionistic expectations that are not humanly possible to meet.
    May hold social or political opinions that are supremely logical but ultimately heartless and draconian. The rules come first no matter what.
    Can be merciless or unwittingly cruel.
    Often a little colorless in their personal appearance.
    Plain dressers, preferring functional clothing that is appropriate to context but not flashy. The emphasis on function may extend to their general lifestyle. Practicality is highly valued.

    or


    1-3-5 : a rather ambitious, elitist and goal-oriented One, very hard-working and somewhat intellectually arrogant. They rarely show their feelings and therefore they usually seem cold and very self-assured. These Ones are generally well-read, well-mannered and quite intellectually refined: they like to impress others with their intelligence, wisdom and irreproachable work.
    usual subtypes: social, self-preserving, 1w9
    similar tritypes: 1-5-3, 3-1-5, 5-1-3
    flavours: competent, intellectual, ambitious and refined



    Btw. do you know anyone like me ?

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