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  1. #671
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    What interest me in life is getting stuff done and not being hurt by things that weren't done or they are done badly. Life rised me in a way that I am the one that keeps things togather and I can't always turn this off just because it is emotionally inconvinient. However I always give explanations for my view if asked. I know all what have you said but I happen to notice or think that people are more likely to need a push than comfort (since in my country that is amost surely the case). Which is why I generally keep the distance from feelers in general since they feel threatened if I don't mask my thoughts. Also your idea that we have lame, overconfident personas proves you are probably missing the point. If you have something to say feel free to attack/challange/address my argument/thoughts, you are welcome to do that since I don't want mistakes. However if you go after every detail of my presentation and my feelings then this converation is pointless, unless we are in emotional or romantic moment.
    I understand this completely but I can tell you that a mature xNFP gets this too. They may not be able to do it the same way as you but they won't get in your way either. A mature healthy xNFP won't want you to mask anything. Granted, I'm not in a relationship with an xNFP but two ENFP's are close friends of mine. They do get it but both are healthy and mature.

    I simply want to have solid and sophisticated plan of action, but if 2/3 of answers I get are "I will think about it" or "we will see" then I lose interest and eventually I may even end up in depression of some form.
    I don't go around and bash NFPs but I need concrete conclusions most of the time. My problems with NFPs are never in classical criticism area but in ability to make decisions at the rate I consider reasonable.
    Ok I HATE the 'I'll think about it". I can't tolerate indecision and many times, this is a ploy to remove the responsibility of making decisions. They simply never give an answer. That's a legitimate complaint on your part and a totally acceptable reason for avoidance.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
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  2. #672
    Its time. Cassandra's Avatar
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    That's irony.
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  3. #673
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I understand this completely but I can tell you that a mature xNFP gets this too. They may not be able to do it the same way as you but they won't get in your way either. A mature healthy xNFP won't want you to mask anything. Granted, I'm not in a relationship with an xNFP but two ENFP's are close friends of mine. They do get it but both are healthy and mature.

    Yeah, but what if NFP has to be involved (since the person is a family or something) or they are not healthy ? It really isn't that simple and therefore I sometime like to keep the distance.



    Ok I HATE the 'I'll think about it". I can't tolerate indecision and many times, this is a ploy to remove the responsibility of making decisions. They simply never give an answer. That's a legitimate complaint on your part and a totally acceptable reason for avoidance.
    And this is pretty much all I am saying. Do we really need to change every plan 4 times ? Or if you are not comming you can at least call that you are not comming ? Ok, we are on the blind date but do we really have to go to some isolated place where you didn't go for 7 years and which happens to be closed for the last 3 ? Do you realize that we will not be able to pass 3 miles on foot in 15 minutes? Etc.


    I trully don't think I am unreasonable regarding my real life expectations.
    However this is lack of Capitalism and therefore NFPs here in general don't feel the need to develope Te.

  4. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    I think I promised I will not quote you but here I will make the exception.

    That instance you mention above...do you remember how that all came about? I ask because it is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I can go and retrieve the posts if you doubt my recollection of it...but I am confident in my memory in this regard.

    You quoted two of my posts...two of my posts that I made with no emotion whatsoever...and accused me of having hysterical emotion. You didn't ask me a thing. You didn't say "Wow, to me you seem upset in these posts but since I'm wise enough to know I don't know everything nor am I a psychic... I will respectfully ask you...were you overly emotional when you created these?" <-No. You didn't give me a chance to comment on what is mine and mine alone...what it is literally impossible for you to know...you took from me my reality and assigned me yours. You not only told me how I was feeling...you went on to criticize me in front of others for something I didn't even feel or do. Do you like it when others do this to you?

    When I protested to this...your solution was to not quote me anymore. Not because you had been wrong mind you...but because of MY hurt by you. You need to protect my feelings...feelings that...at that point...you were completely wrong about twice.

    This is what I'm talking about. I don't give a crap if the NFP is mature, not mature, healthy, not healthy...(I would actually argue a healthy, mature NFP might be more adverse to these kinds of assignments and assumptions for how damaging, unbalanced/unilateral they are to others)...no one wants what is born of other people's wounds and biases unfairly assigned to them. No one wants reality dictated to them as if they could possibly know you better than you know yourself. Are you telling me this kind of thing would be okay with you if the roles were reversed?

    I have literally no problem with you quoting me and very much enjoy you as a member.





    What interest me in life is getting stuff done and not being hurt by things that weren't done or they are done badly. Life rised me in a way that I am the one that keeps things togather and I can't always turn this off just because it is emotionally inconvinient. However I always give explanations for my view if asked. I know all what have you said but I happen to notice or think that people are more likely to need a push than comfort (since in my country that is amost surely the case). Which is why I generally keep the distance from feelers in general since they feel threatened if I don't mask my thoughts.
    My father is INTJ...and if you think for one moment he has ever masked his thoughts anywhere in an effort to protect my feelings...holy shit no. He says whatever is on his mind...whenever...wherever. He's an extraordinarily evolved human being though...someone I have come to know as a true scientist...because he gets that he can never know reality you see? He has a genius IQ. He is considered an expert in his field. He's invented shit that is in use today. And he knows that he can never know objective reality...he can never be entirely right. And he has never robbed me of my reality. He has never said I know better than you.

    Also your idea that we have lame, overconfident personas proves you are probably missing the point. If you have something to say feel free to attack/challange/address my argument/thoughts, you are welcome to do that since I don't want mistakes. However if you go after every detail of my presentation and my feelings then this converation is pointless, unless we are in emotional or romantic moment.
    I was referring to things we had discussed previously. I may have not used the correct words but I was still referring to things you and I had already discussed and so I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at here. But this passage does lead me to believe...you, yourself, may not be all that okay with other people dictating your reality.



    I simply want to have solid and sophisticated plan of action, but if 2/3 of answers I get are "I will think about it" or "we will see" then I lose interest and eventually I may even end up in depression of some form.
    I don't go around and bash NFPs but I need concrete conclusions most of the time. My problems with NFPs are never in classical criticism area but in ability to make decisions at the rate I consider reasonable.
    I'm not asking you to change in anyway. I was pointing out something that NFPs will respond poorly to. Take it or leave it accordingly.
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  5. #675
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    That instance you mention above...do you remember how that all came about? I ask because it is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I can go and retrieve the posts if you doubt my recollection of it...but I am confident in my memory in this regard.

    You quoted two of my posts...two of my posts that I made with no emotion whatsoever...and accused me of having hysterical emotion. You didn't ask me a thing. You didn't say "Wow, to me you seem upset in these posts but since I'm wise enough to know I don't know everything nor am I a psychic... I will respectfully ask you...were you overly emotional when you created these?" <-No. You didn't give me a chance to comment on what is mine and mine alone...what it is literally impossible for you to know...you took from me my reality and assigned me yours. You not only told me how I was feeling...you went on to criticize me in front of others for something I didn't even feel or do. Do you like it when others do this to you?

    When I protested to this...your solution was to not quote me anymore. Not because you had been wrong mind you...but because of MY hurt by you. You need to protect my feelings...feelings that...at that point...you were completely wrong about twice.

    This is what I'm talking about. I don't give a crap if the NFP is mature, not mature, healthy, not healthy...(I would actually argue a healthy, mature NFP might be more adverse to these kinds of assignments and assumptions for how damaging, unbalanced/unilateral they are to others)...no one wants what is born of other people's wounds and biases unfairly assigned to them. No one wants reality dictated to them as if they could possibly know you better than you know yourself. Are you telling me this kind of thing would be okay with you if the roles were reversed?

    I have literally no problem with you quoting me and very much enjoy you as a member.

    All I can say and I wanted to say is that you strike me as a "bleeding heart" due to the way you type and express yourself and your thoughts. I get the same feeling from this posts as well and I am pretty sure that people with similar typing to mine get the similar impression.




    My father is INTJ...and if you think for one moment he has ever masked his thoughts anywhere in an effort to protect my feelings...holy shit no. He says whatever is on his mind...whenever...wherever. He's an extraordinarily evolved human being though...someone I have come to know as a true scientist...because he gets that he can never know reality you see? He has a genius IQ. He is considered an expert in his field. He's invented shit that is in use today. And he knows that he can never know reality...he can never be entirely right. And he has never robbed me of my reality. He has never said I know better than you.
    Well, I am not your father and I changed my type exactly because I am not like him in a few important things. I am organizer/coordinator not a thinker and I have a thing for proper behavior. I would rather move away than cause you discomfort (under normal circumstances). Since I was rised under the premise that I am insenstive and I should look after the others when that is needed.



    I was referring to things we had discussed previously. I may have not used the correct words but I was still referring to things you and I had already discussed and so I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at here. But this passage does lead me to believe...you, yourself, may not be all that okay with other people dictating your reality.
    Yes, I prefer to be in control or at least close to such positions. Since things often go wrong if I am not around (and people agree that they went wrong, so this isn't just my interpretation). For example when we were doing group assignmetns in college people ALWAYS wanted me to lead the group planning and organisational stuff. Since they all felt that no one else can get the job done as good as me. Plus I have the similar role in my own family. Everything where I was in control had above expectations results. However if person has arguments I am ready to listen, I am not trully closedminded.


    I'm not asking you to change in anyway. I was pointing out something that NFPs will respond poorly to. Take it or leave it accordingly.

    I know they will, however often reality doesn't care about this and therefore we have to make our choices. I am not requesting conclusions just on my part but for the sake of everybody around. (NFP included)

  6. #676
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    All I can say and I wanted to say is that you strike me as a "bleeding heart" due to the way you type and express yourself and your thoughts. I get the same feeling from this posts as well and I am pretty sure that people with similar typing to mine get the similar impression.
    ^^Yah see that's all expressed positively to me VG...to the point I'm interested in your perceptions and observations...all in spite of knowing those qualities are negative to you and that your perception and subsequent opinion most likely causes you to think less of me. These are criticisms by your standards...and yet I assure you Fi is completely okay with the whole thing all because you aren't forcing a reality onto me as in "you are" but are sharing you personal understanding as in "you strike me"... (fun fact: Fi in the dom and aux position are equally offended by a forced positive reality onto us or positive assumptions being made about us without our input. this is what I'm trying very hard to explain...that it is not the criticism but assumptions and forced reality...and if you don't believe I would hope you would put what I say to the test. Pick a positive but absent characteristic and start praising the NFP as if it were a truth and not an opinion. "You are very organized"... <-it may take longer but they will eventually snap at being assigned that reality too.)

    I'm not really sure what 'bleeding heart' means to you. I know I am experienced as being intense by some members here but like you were saying in that other thread I think sx energy is just too much for certain folks. I think you would be surprised if you met me irl. Not saying I don't get intense and righteous from time to time...but it's pretty rare... and aside from my Mom that causes me to become clinically insane nearly every time I'm around her...I don't fight with people in my real life. Not only because I don't see the point (counterproductive)...but I rarely experience the feeling for it. I think the way I write is somewhat misleading. My anger is almost always directed towards fucked-up, harmful systems...not individuals within those systems.

    None of this is meant to change your opinion though. I appreciate you sharing it with me. (I will need to come back to write the rest of the post though).
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  7. #677
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    ^^Yah see that's all expressed positively to me VG...to the point I'm interested in your perceptions and observations...all in spite of knowing those qualities are negative to you and that your perception and subsequent opinion most likely causes you to think less of me. These are criticisms by your standards...and yet I assure you Fi is completely okay with the whole thing all because you aren't forcing a reality onto me as in "you are" but are sharing you personal understanding as in "you strike me"... (fun fact: Fi in the dom and aux position are equally offended by a forced positive reality onto us or positive assumptions being made about us without our input. this is what I'm trying very hard to explain...that it is not the criticism but assumptions and forced reality...and if you don't believe I would hope you would put what I say to the test. Pick a positive but absent characteristic and start praising the NFP as if it were a truth and not an opinion. "You are very organized"... <-it may take longer but they will eventually snap at being assigned that reality too.)

    I'm not really sure what 'bleeding heart' means to you. I know I am experienced as being intense by some members here but like you were saying in that other thread I think sx energy is just too much for certain folks. I think you would be surprised if you met me irl. Not saying I don't get intense and righteous from time to time...but it's pretty rare... and aside from my Mom that causes me to become clinically insane nearly every time I'm around her...I don't fight with people in my real life. Not only because I don't see the point (counterproductive)...but I rarely experience the feeling for it. I think the way I write is somewhat misleading. My anger is almost always directed towards fucked-up, harmful systems...not individuals within those systems.

    None of this is meant to change your opinion though. I appreciate you sharing it with me. (I will need to come back to write the rest of the post though).

    Why this isn't suppose to change my oppinion ? Why did you wrote this large post if you have absolutely no desires in this regard ?


    I don't think less or higher of you. It is just that I like that people have a sense of realism, because otherwise they or someone else could get hurt or something will go wrong. All I am asking is for very reasonable reasons, what is my often problem. Actually people find me too reasonable and they want to provoke messy reaction.

    It even happened to me that complete strangers were making funny faces in front of me because I am "too serious". WTF !?

  8. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Why this isn't suppose to change my oppinion ? Why did you wrote this large post if you have absolutely no desires in this regard ?
    I'll explain why I did but first...

    I want to say that I totally appreciate you asking me the above instead of making another assumption and conclusion about me. I wish I were capable of describing how menacing and claustrophobia-inducing that experience is for us and why (although wild animal in small cage is a fairly decent description)... but I don't seem to be. If I were capable though you would know how appreciative I truly am.

    From what you wrote though it looks like we were definitely in the assumption danger-zone. You were like at an Assumption Defcon 4 or something. Which is so confusing to me. This is were Ji scratches it's head and wonders how Je makes it through life (you guys have to believe you are right maybe? this is what I now suspect...you need to believe you are right to the exclusion of other voices and mow/plow forward because stopping may reveal all the holes in the system?)

    If you had a choice between being streamlined or relatively accurate which would you choose? Because you appear to be choosing streamlined. If A then B has very limited applications.

    When you ask me above "if you weren't trying to change my opinion why did you write that?" are you simultaneously saying that you can't imagine any other possible reasons why someone might do such a thing? Really? This is why assumptions leading to incorrect conclusions occur then.

    I responded to you in the way I would have liked to have been responded to if the roles were reversed. If I say to someone that I think they are such-and-such then I like them to tell me with a few specific details how close or off my assessment was in their own opinion of who they are. I like gathering interesting little pieces of information and adding it to my map. With If A then B thinking I now see that trying to relate was perhaps unnecessary but I responded in the way I would have preferred.

    I don't think less or higher of you. It is just that I like that people have a sense of realism, because otherwise they or someone else could get hurt or something will go wrong. All I am asking is for very reasonable reasons, what is my often problem. Actually people find me too reasonable and they want to provoke messy reaction.
    I don't find you too reasonable.

    How would you define realism? What does that mean to you?

    It even happened to me that complete strangers were making funny faces in front of me because I am "too serious". WTF !?
    I actually think this is a sweet story #bleedingheart

  9. #679
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I'm bringing this here so as not to go off topic in the other thread.

    I thought here I could try once and for all to explain this to you as the two of you are both so far off the mark (with possible good reason)...and then be done with it. Here is also where I'd imagine other NFPs might come if they had a mind to and reinforce what I will now say...

    Fi in the dom and aux position is not overly sensitive to criticism or exceedingly adverse to coarse and/or somewhat aggressive personality styles...but rather the qualities in a person that cause the two of you to repeatedly make these claims...namely overconfident (and in the case of chubber I would dare say arrogant) assumption. I've attempted to explain this to the both of you before and today I will give it my final shot... There's pretty much like zero doubt in my mind that when you two go to criticize a NFP...the negative response you receive has nothing to do with the criticism itself or your lame personalities or whatever...and everything to do with the way you both automatically assume you are right. You are forcing your opinion...your subjective understanding of reality onto the NFP as if it is objective reality...because that's the degree of overconfidence/arrogance the two of you have. You are robbing the most individualistic function of their autonomy and desire for absolute equality (and also demonstrate narrow-mindedness which is a major turn-off to Ne). It's similar to throwing a wild animal into a small cage.

    Now, I don't think either of you are entirely to blame in your conclusions. Most NFPs don't know they are NFPs let alone anything having to do with the fundamentals of the individual functions... I imagine most of the NFPs you've "criticized" didn't quite understand what it was they were actually responding to negatively. I could see them in their confusion even naming the criticism because it was the only thing that made sense and gave them a socially legitimate platform with which to express their frustration...but it's still not the criticism.

    The fix is easy and if you don't believe me I would strongly encourage you to give it a try... (actually, I would encourage you both to give this a try with all people as no one likes a know-it-all). Fuckin "I language" man - learn it. Instead of "You are sensitive to criticism" you say "In my opinion you seem sensitive to criticism...is that true?"
    Well I disagree, because Ne Fi is extremely sensitive to what other people think. And this once and for all will only be settled when you, Starry, realise something else. And I've been avoiding it for a very long time because I don't want to get dragged into this possible discussion with you.

  10. #680
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I'll explain why I did but first...

    I want to say that I totally appreciate you asking me the above instead of making another assumption and conclusion about me. I wish I were capable of describing how menacing and claustrophobia-inducing that experience is for us and why (although wild animal in small cage is a fairly decent description)... but I don't seem to be. If I were capable though you would know how appreciative I truly am.

    From what you wrote though it looks like we were definitely in the assumption danger-zone. You were like at an Assumption Defcon 4 or something. Which is so confusing to me. This is were Ji scratches it's head and wonders how Je makes it through life (you guys have to believe you are right maybe? this is what I now suspect...you need to believe you are right to the exclusion of other voices and mow/plow forward because stopping may reveal all the holes in the system?)
    This represents sterotypical NFP mistake in interpretation. Just because I said it that doesn't mean that I will stand by this opninion and that this is my final answer. This is thinking out loud until proven otherwise. Since what I said is simply verbalisation of what facts suggest in my head. What is why I bacame pseudo INTJ because my family couldn't deal with the constant judgements.

    I said something that simply represents what I tend to think or suggest, but I never claimed that this is final truth or the word of God. Because as a Te dom you are the one with the plan and the one that will/should build the structure. Therefore with this you simply signal everybody how far we went as a group and what is bottom line at this point. Fe dom would perhaps try to run from the holes in the system but real Te dom would know that this is unsustanable on the long run. (in my opinion)




    If you had a choice between being streamlined or relatively accurate which would you choose? Because you appear to be choosing streamlined. If A then B has very limited applications.
    This is too Fi like question for me to give simple answer. I want what I consider accurate and best in the current situation. Because what wins you situations isn't quality or quantity, but ratio between quality and quantity that is deployed well under the circumstances. You can have incredible grasp of the facts but if you are in the wrong place in the wrong time this may not matter at all.

    But ot be honest I am not sure what you are trully asking me. (English isn't my first langauge)



    When you ask me above "if you weren't trying to change my opinion why did you write that?" are you simultaneously saying that you can't imagine any other possible reasons why someone might do such a thing? Really? This is why assumptions leading to incorrect conclusions occur then.
    As I said few lines before, this is simply how it looks to me (the most probable conclusion), I never said there are no alternatives. On the other hand you are process oriented instead of goal oriented and you don't "publish" anything until you are certain. (especially because you claim to be fear type) Since you have uncomfort with conclusions and you see than as something to be avoided. When you are building Nuclear power plant this is reasonable but in most real life situations it isn't. Talk may be cheap but it isn't forbidden.


    I responded to you in the way I would have liked to have been responded to if the roles were reversed. If I say to someone that I think they are such-and-such then I like them to tell me with a few specific details how close or off my assessment was in their own opinion of who they are. I like gathering interesting little pieces of information and adding it to my map. With If A then B thinking I now see that trying to relate was perhaps unnecessary but I responded in the way I would have preferred.
    To tell you the truth I used to be like you, gathering little pieces of information, creating constructes, reading a few books a day etc. Since I was tought this is a good thing.
    However through messiness of life I have realized that this isn't really a living, living is going out there and making a difference, remaking the situations, spreading the information etc.


    I don't find you too reasonable.

    How would you define realism? What does that mean to you?
    Why ?
    The answer is basically in my last answer. It is changing the trends in a way I see right, making sure you asses the situation in realitic way, ... I mean empirical evidences are all over the place some one has to simply gather them and make a decent interpretation. The time is not unlimited and being too careful over every single detail can be counter-productive on the long run because you risk missing the life altoghater.


    I actually think this is a sweet story #bleedingheart

    I suppose it is reasonable, but on the other hand it can be very alienating if people think that you should be someone else.

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