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  1. #661
    darkened dreams Ravenetta's Avatar
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    What are some ENFP traits that are the most defining characteristics? The traits that if a person doesn't possess them, then they really couldn't identify with the type?
    @Enthusiastic_Dreamer
    I read your post about getting bored with a type, and I feel that myself. I like the idea of trying on types. There's also a bit of emotional baggage with the INFJ and INFP types for me, so I might avoid those because of that instead of objectively looking at everything. There is some way that all of the function descriptions have become confused enough in my mind that I could take any behavior or feeling and see how it relates to either the introverted or extroverted version of a function.
    The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. FEYNMAN
    If this is monkey pee, you're on your own.SCULLY
    You have to let the metaphysical guy chase you. ABIGAIL

  2. #662
    Dream without Hesitation Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labyrinthine View Post
    What are some ENFP traits that are the most defining characteristics? The traits that if a person doesn't possess them, then they really couldn't identify with the type?
    @Enthusiastic_Dreamer
    I read your post about getting bored with a type, and I feel that myself. I like the idea of trying on types. There's also a bit of emotional baggage with the INFJ and INFP types for me, so I might avoid those because of that instead of objectively looking at everything. There is some way that all of the function descriptions have become confused enough in my mind that I could take any behavior or feeling and see how it relates to either the introverted or extroverted version of a function.
    I would caution going about typing yourself relating to behavior. I would say, types show tendencies, but not behavior. What I mean is, behavior is only superficial representations of what is occurring beneath the surface. You can tie this behavior with this function or that, but the problem is, that same behavior can also stem from say, another function. Throw in motivation, life experience, Enneagram type, whether someone is in a healthy state or not, etc. and you're left picking at behaviors that may not even be tied to a function or type anymore. I say tendencies though, because of the given stacking you will see some patterns start to emerge from individuals of that type. It's like trying to find universal morality and weeding through cultural subjectivity and relativity. It's not clear cut.

    But to answer your question, I could go on and on but one thing I will point out as a tendency I see, is relating to the stereotype that ENFPs are flighty, scattered, and indecisive. If you look at all three, they all float around Ne as the root cause. But why? Well because for Ne doms, the Ne process is such a mental stimulation and "high" that there is a bias and natural inclination to stay there longer than other types. Ne is seeing many different possibilities and not being fixed to one decision, that's the job of the following judging function, Fi or Ti. So, understanding that process and knowing the whats and whys of it, brings one to the understanding of just where those stereotypes emerge from. They are stereotypes though, so in reality, they most likely aren't nearly as exaggerated and prevalent as the stereotype would have you believe.

    But in figuring out your type, I recommend grappling with the functions, understand them in a way that makes sense to YOU. That's very important. I see people rehashing the same function descriptions every which way, and I wonder if they even know what they're talking about. That's only my perception of course. Then, do some self reflection and try to pinpoint the whys of what you do. Ask yourself what truly guides your decisions and thoughts. Do you tend to place judgement on things immediately? Or do you come to those decisions a bit later? Are those judgements hard-lined? Or flexible?

    Sounds like an arduous process, and it can be if you don't tend to reflect on things normally. It's the same as not running the disk defragment process on an old pc regularly, your computer just becomes cluttered.

    But if you just want some more quick and easy, I wouldn't blame you. Me, or any of the ENFPs on the forum could give you more tendencies to look out for to help you out. I'm just stopping myself now to prevent this post from going on any longer, but I could give you more. I don't consider myself an ENFP authority though, so I'd cross reference with other members on the forum as well

    Good luck!
    The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams
    -Eleanor Roosevelt


    ~Always, an Enthusiastic_Dreamer
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  3. #663
    darkened dreams Ravenetta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiastic_Dreamer View Post
    I would caution going about typing yourself relating to behavior. I would say, types show tendencies, but not behavior. What I mean is, behavior is only superficial representations of what is occurring beneath the surface. You can tie this behavior with this function or that, but the problem is, that same behavior can also stem from say, another function. Throw in motivation, life experience, Enneagram type, whether someone is in a healthy state or not, etc. and you're left picking at behaviors that may not even be tied to a function or type anymore. I say tendencies though, because of the given stacking you will see some patterns start to emerge from individuals of that type. It's like trying to find universal morality and weeding through cultural subjectivity and relativity. It's not clear cut.

    But to answer your question, I could go on and on but one thing I will point out as a tendency I see, is relating to the stereotype that ENFPs are flighty, scattered, and indecisive. If you look at all three, they all float around Ne as the root cause. But why? Well because for Ne doms, the Ne process is such a mental stimulation and "high" that there is a bias and natural inclination to stay there longer than other types. Ne is seeing many different possibilities and not being fixed to one decision, that's the job of the following judging function, Fi or Ti. So, understanding that process and knowing the whats and whys of it, brings one to the understanding of just where those stereotypes emerge from. They are stereotypes though, so in reality, they most likely aren't nearly as exaggerated and prevalent as the stereotype would have you believe.

    But in figuring out your type, I recommend grappling with the functions, understand them in a way that makes sense to YOU. That's very important. I see people rehashing the same function descriptions every which way, and I wonder if they even know what they're talking about. That's only my perception of course. Then, do some self reflection and try to pinpoint the whys of what you do. Ask yourself what truly guides your decisions and thoughts. Do you tend to place judgement on things immediately? Or do you come to those decisions a bit later? Are those judgements hard-lined? Or flexible?

    Sounds like an arduous process, and it can be if you don't tend to reflect on things normally. It's the same as not running the disk defragment process on an old pc regularly, your computer just becomes cluttered.

    But if you just want some more quick and easy, I wouldn't blame you. Me, or any of the ENFPs on the forum could give you more tendencies to look out for to help you out. I'm just stopping myself now to prevent this post from going on any longer, but I could give you more. I don't consider myself an ENFP authority though, so I'd cross reference with other members on the forum as well

    Good luck!
    I would be happy to hear more if you ever felt like it. I know it takes time and such.

    Maybe I wish I were ENFP these days, but I may be too structured with time and stuff. There are a few things that don't fit for INFJ though, because I have terrible trouble imposing structure onto others or telling people what to do even when I should be doing that as a teacher. I lose control of little kids very quickly because I don't have command presence and am horrible at discipline. I also have a silly streak which they pick up on. There is one little stinker-roo I have particular trouble with. She keeps hiding under the piano during her lesson and hollers "no! no! noes!" When I ask her to play her five finger patterns. She tried to make a deal with me, "I'll play A position if you shut your eyes for ten seconds so I can hide something useful". At my best I came back with, "I'll make a deal with you. If you play A position then you don't have to play B or Z and that is a good thing because that would keep you very very BZ". I cannot command dogs either. They just see it as hilarious fun when I try to exert authority - and while I don't think those are necessarily ENFP qualities I think I come across more like a P than a J overall. Once again though, that is just behavioral descriptions.

    I am strongly motivated towards peace both inside and outside. I don't like to control others to the point that it has been difficult in successful marriages. I couldn't tell someone to spend time with me if they didn't naturally want to and so the imbalance of needs wrecked the relationships. I hate being in a position where I am supposed to control someone else's behavior. I like to understand people, but mostly through listening and watching.

    I am motivated to keep stuff and time in order because I find both disorienting. I am spacey, but manage to hid a lot of it through sheer effort. I love having enough of a routine to break it. I love the feeling of breaking the routine, but also need some type of background structure.

    I value simplicity very highly in all things from dealing with stuff, people, relationships, food, everything. I'm now realizing that happiness is found mostly in concrete moments.

    I also really need to take in the beauty of the world. I live to sit in nature and take in its beauty and become one with it. I could go on for pages about that, but that is mostly it. When I was 18 my aunt made me read "Anne of Green Gables" because she said I seemed very much like her. I did make comments about wishing the walls of her old Victorian house could speak because I could feel their stories and such.

    I'm a little like Phoebe from friends, but she is a very indulgent version of me - I'm a bit quieter and more controlled. I do have tons of imaginative impressions with do suggest I'm either Ne or Ni dom. When I do EMDR therapy tons of images come to my mind and I essentially dream outloud. My last session ended with me seeing a herd of giraffes, and one little one stayed behind, grew wings and we flew off together. I also get impressions from past lives where it feels like in the most recent one in the 1920's I was with my current partner who was an early racecar driver and I played a small pedal harp. Before that I have memories/imagining of being a little person in a traveling circus with helper monkeys and a crystal ball that will come back to me in this life. I don't even know if I believe any of it, but my imagination is in hyperdrive.
    The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. FEYNMAN
    If this is monkey pee, you're on your own.SCULLY
    You have to let the metaphysical guy chase you. ABIGAIL

  4. #664
    Senior Member Chiharu's Avatar
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    Hey, do any ENFPs ever feel like you have no one to talk to or go to for advice on certain things, not because you don't have friends/family/an SO, but because you already know what they're going to say and it won't provide new insight?

    Maybe it's not type specific, but people of other types always seem surprised when I can accurately predict what they're going to say about something, so I thought it might be worth asking. I feel really stifled by my social network no matter how large it gets, and I'm always seeking a better confidant even though I have significant emotional support now. And this is not to say that I don't ask for or benefit from their advice a variety of topics, especially practical topics rather than moral/ethical/emotional ones.

    Perhaps this is related to Ne pattern recognition (predicting behavior) and Fi mistrusting external framework?

    Sorry if this has been brought up and addressed somewhere before now.
    Be soft. Do not let the world make you hard. Do not let pain make you hate. Do not let the bitterness steal your sweetness." ― Kurt Vonnegut

    ENFP. 7w6 – 4w3 – 1w9 sx/so. Aries. Dilettante. Overly anxious optimist.

  5. #665
    Dream without Hesitation Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiharu View Post
    Hey, do any ENFPs ever feel like you have no one to talk to or go to for advice on certain things, not because you don't have friends/family/an SO, but because you already know what they're going to say and it won't provide new insight?

    Maybe it's not type specific, but people of other types always seem surprised when I can accurately predict what they're going to say about something, so I thought it might be worth asking. I feel really stifled by my social network no matter how large it gets, and I'm always seeking a better confidant even though I have significant emotional support now. And this is not to say that I don't ask for or benefit from their advice a variety of topics, especially practical topics rather than moral/ethical/emotional ones.

    Perhaps this is related to Ne pattern recognition (predicting behavior) and Fi mistrusting external framework?

    Sorry if this has been brought up and addressed somewhere before now.
    I don't know if this is type specific, but as I am sure you are aware, it isn't always what the other person has to advise or say concerning a situation. Sometimes people ask questions to things they already know the answer to, for whatever reason. Validation? Sometimes it really is just the person who says it, can mean all the difference too. Perhaps it is Ne at work, or just understanding common etiquette/responses people tend to have when presented with a certain situation, who knows? I know what you mean though. There have been times when I know what someone would say to me, but I let them say it anyways. Why did I ask it then? Can't say for certain, but perhaps it helps with my thought process. When things are thrown out verbally, it's much easier for me to "see" the ideas, even my own. It can actually be a rather good brainstorming exercise too

    I didn't have all too much to add to your comment but thought it was an interesting point to bring up.
    The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams
    -Eleanor Roosevelt


    ~Always, an Enthusiastic_Dreamer

  6. #666
    Hellblazer... Gentleman Jack's Avatar
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    I often find that if I go to te people I'm closest to; I spend so much time trying to navigate their sensitivities, that I just end up wanting to forget about what I initially wanted advice on, because I doubt it would go well at that point.
    With all due respect,
    -Jack.

    You must be human . . . how weirdly exotic and excitingly perverse...

    I am the Cat who walks by Himself, and all places are alike to me...

    There were people who lied for gain, people who lied from pain,
    people who lied simply because the concept of telling the truth was utterly alien to them,
    and then there were people who lied because they were waiting for it to be time to tell the truth...

    Se > Ti > Fe = Ni > Ne = Si > Te = Fi


  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentleman Jack View Post
    I often find that if I go to te people I'm closest to; I spend so much time trying to navigate their sensitivities, that I just end up wanting to forget about what I initially wanted advice on, because I doubt it would go well at that point.
    I just came across this. When looking for advice just be straight to the point and dont worry about their sensitivities unless it is a controversial topic or something.

  8. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    Fi doesn't want to hear that, they just see it as criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Well, we ARE aggressive. However I fail to see why this is considered to be a bad thing so often, especially since almost always this is for the sake of greater good. If you complain about the problem then the most reasonable thing to do is to solve the problem. Since during the emotional turmoil the problem could have been solved or atleast the solution could be on the way and you will feel better because of this. With relationshps things don't work this way but with everything else they do.

    I'm bringing this here so as not to go off topic in the other thread.

    I thought here I could try once and for all to explain this to you as the two of you are both so far off the mark (with possible good reason)...and then be done with it. Here is also where I'd imagine other NFPs might come if they had a mind to and reinforce what I will now say...

    Fi in the dom and aux position is not overly sensitive to criticism or exceedingly adverse to coarse and/or somewhat aggressive personality styles...but rather the qualities in a person that cause the two of you to repeatedly make these claims...namely overconfident (and in the case of chubber I would dare say arrogant) assumption. I've attempted to explain this to the both of you before and today I will give it my final shot... There's pretty much like zero doubt in my mind that when you two go to criticize a NFP...the negative response you receive has nothing to do with the criticism itself or your lame personalities or whatever...and everything to do with the way you both automatically assume you are right. You are forcing your opinion...your subjective understanding of reality onto the NFP as if it is objective reality...because that's the degree of overconfidence/arrogance the two of you have. You are robbing the most individualistic function of their autonomy and desire for absolute equality (and also demonstrate narrow-mindedness which is a major turn-off to Ne). It's similar to throwing a wild animal into a small cage.

    Now, I don't think either of you are entirely to blame in your conclusions. Most NFPs don't know they are NFPs let alone anything having to do with the fundamentals of the individual functions... I imagine most of the NFPs you've "criticized" didn't quite understand what it was they were actually responding to negatively. I could see them in their confusion even naming the criticism because it was the only thing that made sense and gave them a socially legitimate platform with which to express their frustration...but it's still not the criticism.

    The fix is easy and if you don't believe me I would strongly encourage you to give it a try... (actually, I would encourage you both to give this a try with all people as no one likes a know-it-all). Fuckin "I language" man - learn it. Instead of "You are sensitive to criticism" you say "In my opinion you seem sensitive to criticism...is that true?"
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  9. #669
    Its time. Cassandra's Avatar
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    Addendum to the OP:


    * Rainbow syndrome - named after the proverbial dog that could see a rainbow who then tried to explain the concept to the other dogs that are colourblind.

    As an ENFP you're going to see things very differently than most people. The whole switching back and forth on angles, seeing the multitude of options and the (if you've developed that skill enough) ability to see things from other people's povs is going to make you prioritise shit in a way that is just...well, blatantly foreign to others (this is true for most types and their pov, but seems to be especially true for Ne for some reason).

    It's easy to get annoyed and hurt at them coming at you for that with questions and criticisms since it is so easy to see those things as an NeFi user, so there is something to be said about practising patience and remember that their world view is vastly different from yours and it can take some time to wrap your head around yours, especially if this sort of thing doesn't come natural to them at all.

    That said, those that presume you're dead wrong about everything because you don't follow their yardstick or they cannot even fathom your yardstick existing since it is that alien to you and try to change how you think, how you approach things and insist your way of going about life is wrong, are those colourblind dogs, imho. And nothing you say is going to make them understand until they *want* to understand. Don't let them bully, badger or make you second-guess yourself. Just because they don't see it or can't understand it, doesn't mean it's not very real, valid and precious. Hold onto those rainbows and mine them for all they're worth - someone has to
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  10. #670
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I'm bringing this here so as not to go off topic in the other thread.

    I thought here I could try once and for all to explain this to you as the two of you are both so far off the mark (with possible good reason)...and then be done with it. Here is also where I'd imagine other NFPs might come if they had a mind to and reinforce what I will now say...

    Fi in the dom and aux position is not overly sensitive to criticism or exceedingly adverse to coarse and/or somewhat aggressive personality styles...but rather the qualities in a person that cause the two of you to repeatedly make these claims...namely overconfident (and in the case of chubber I would dare say arrogant) assumption. I've attempted to explain this to the both of you before and today I will give it my final shot... There's pretty much like zero doubt in my mind that when you two go to criticize a NFP...the negative response you receive has nothing to do with the criticism itself or your lame personalities or whatever...and everything to do with the way you both automatically assume you are right. You are forcing your opinion...your subjective understanding of reality onto the NFP as if it is objective reality...because that's the degree of overconfidence/arrogance the two of you have. You are robbing the most individualistic function of their autonomy and desire for absolute equality (and also demonstrate narrow-mindedness which is a major turn-off to Ne). It's similar to throwing a wild animal into a small cage.

    Now, I don't think either of you are entirely to blame in your conclusions. Most NFPs don't know they are NFPs let alone anything having to do with the fundamentals of the individual functions... I imagine most of the NFPs you've "criticized" didn't quite understand what it is they were actually responding to negatively. I could see them in their confusion even naming the criticism because it was the only thing that made sense and gave them a socially legitimate platform with which to express their frustration...but it's still not the criticism.

    The fix is easy and if you don't believe me I would strongly encourage you to give it a try... (actually, I would encourage you both to give this a try with all people as no one likes a know-it-all). Fuckin "I language" man - learn it. Instead of "You are sensitive to criticism" you say "In my opinion you seem sensitive to criticism...is that true?"

    I think I promised I will not quote you but here I will make the exception.


    What interest me in life is getting stuff done and not being hurt by things that weren't done or they are done badly. Life rised me in a way that I am the one that keeps things togather and I can't always turn this off just because it is emotionally inconvinient. However I always give explanations for my view if asked. I know all what have you said but I happen to notice or think that people are more likely to need a push than comfort (since in my country that is amost surely the case). Which is why I generally keep the distance from feelers in general since they feel threatened if I don't mask my thoughts. Also your idea that we have lame, overconfident personas proves you are probably missing the point. If you have something to say feel free to attack/challange/address my argument/thoughts, you are welcome to do that since I don't want mistakes. However if you go after every detail of my presentation and my feelings then this converation is pointless, unless we are in emotional or romantic moment.



    I simply want to have solid and sophisticated plan of action, but if 2/3 of answers I get are "I will think about it" or "we will see" then I lose interest and eventually I may even end up in depression of some form.
    I don't go around and bash NFPs but I need concrete conclusions most of the time. My problems with NFPs are never in classical criticism area but in ability to make decisions at the rate I consider reasonable.

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