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[INFJ] Common INFJ issues

Esoteric Wench

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EW - Until you step away from what you live and breathe, you aren't really aware of it being there, I think.

I never really noticed a lot of aspects of where I lived and the culture I came from until I lived outside of it. When I lived in the States, I saw how Canadians and Americans did have slightly different communication styles which would be perceived differently in each of those countries. Different traits were valued more highly and others seen as either too passive or too intrusive. I also was surprised to find that we really have retained some of our British traits, despite the time that has elapsed. When I lived on the reserve, completely different language and communication, behaviours and conventions seeming normal me or to them depending on where we had grown up. If I went into their community, I had to make big adjustments in both my perception and my outgoing communication or I would get into confrontations with students or encounter counterwill in everyplace from the grocery store to the school! If they moved to the city, they had to realize that what was perfectly normal and acceptable where they were would be perceived very differently and that it wasn't always racism. When I lived in Quebec, I discovered that they interacted in a much more familiar and blunt way than I was accustomed to in more reserved English Canada. They were also a lot more able to let loose in some ways. I went to a concert in Eastern Canada where half of the audience was Acadian (French) and the other half were English (mostly visitors "from away"). The French side of the audience hooted and hollered and spoke back to the performers (many of the audience members were the "hometown crowd" or were related). The English side of the audience clapped along with the music, but were comparatively reserved and sedate even though they would have liked to have shown more. The performers noticed and teased them about it! When I encountered a teacher from Quebec out where I was from, he expressed surprise and distaste that people don't directly state the things that bug them about a person in that person's presence. What seemed polite to us seemed like passive-aggressive behaviour to him. When I lived with German roommates, I had to realize that their bluntness was not reflective of more stuff seething inside, which is what it would mean if I said something that directly. For months I avoided spending any time at the house because I thought they hated me!

I think that all of the functions are like this, in particular the ones that we use most predominantly. It is only when we get put in an environment without what we are most comfortable that we miss it and even identify what it is.

"We shall not cease from exploration and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time." - T.S. Eliot - Little Gidding, from Four Quartets​

Fidelia, I agree with you completely. What you said made me think of one of my favorite quotes.... (Esoteric Wench stops and considers that she's doing that Fi thing again with an Fe person.)

Let me try again with my new found knowledge...

It sounds like you've had a lot of experience observing different people in different cultures, and that you are very aware of how your British roots will always be a part of you. How interesting that you've traveled so much. It seems that the cross cultural experiences have informed your understanding of MBTI.

- Esoteric Wench

PS (It is a great quote though. :newwink:)
 

Fidelia

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Ohhhhhhh, Fidelia. How wrong can you be? You know nothing of my sincere and earnest efforts to try to understand why such things are a Big Deal to INFJs. Let me ask you if you have made a sincere and earnest effort to understand why I and others would make such statements about INFJs? I’ll elaborate on this one more tomorrow. I’m tired now and have to get some sleep.​

I have a feeling that perhaps some INFP issues with INFJs may be different than ENFP ones with INFJs. Do you think that's true, or not? I think INFJs would like to reciprocally understand and respond to other people's Big Deals. I'm just not sure how to get you to verbalize them so that I can better understand them without seeming intrusive.

I do know that one of the big things is making you feel accepted for who you are first without making the person feel that that continued acceptance is based on becoming what they could be or taking the advice given. In the absence of having any practical ways to help a person who seems "stuck", we get discouraged and start feeling like the person is not looking for solutions without understanding what else is going on. Do you have any practical suggestions for coming to a better understanding of the situation without putting pressure on the person.
 

Fidelia

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"We shall not cease from exploration and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time." - T.S. Eliot - Little Gidding, from Four Quartets​

Fidelia, I agree with you completely. What you said made me think of one of my favorite quotes.... (Esoteric Wench stops and considers that she's doing that Fi thing again with an Fe person.)

Let me try again with my new found knowledge...

It sounds like you've had a lot of experience observing different people in different cultures, and that you are very aware of how your British roots will always be a part of you. How interesting that you've traveled so much. It seems that the cross cultural experiences have informed your understanding of MBTI.

- Esoteric Wench

PS (It is a great quote though. :newwink:)


You've been great about all this!

In a case like this where we are mutually agreeing, you don't have to worry about the active listening stuff so much. There's nothing to get stuck on, therefore I don't worry that you are misunderstanding or missing information. I like good quotes too! :)

It mostly comes up when there is extreme emotion (happy or sad), stress or conflict where having that information could better help you avoid landmines and make the person feel like you understand.

Have you checked out Satine's thread? I'm so glad someone did this. I think it should be interesting now to check things out from the opposite point of view!
 

Tiltyred

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"We shall not cease from exploration and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time." - T.S. Eliot - Little Gidding, from Four Quartets​
Fidelia, I agree with you completely. What you said made me think of one of my favorite quotes.... (Esoteric Wench stops and considers that she's doing that Fi thing again with an Fe person.)

Let me try again with my new found knowledge...

It sounds like you've had a lot of experience observing different people in different cultures, and that you are very aware of how your British roots will always be a part of you. How interesting that you've traveled so much. It seems that the cross cultural experiences have informed your understanding of MBTI.

- Esoteric Wench

PS (It is a great quote though. :newwink:)

Esoteric Wench,
Very nice. And I'm admiring what a good sport you are.
Best regards,
Tiltyred
 

Arclight

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I think we're already finding some common ground. I'm not sure why this is perceived as being disrespectful. As PeaceBaby said, something always comes of these kinds of exchanges and it has been completely civil. We have not started name calling, it's solution oriented and the problem, its causes and possible solutions have been discussed.

People were being curt and short.. I could see tempers starting to fray even if you couldn't.

That is all.

I am glad civility rules the day.
 

Fidelia

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I don't think I'd continue posting if it got to that. That's about the worst that you'll be likely to ever see out of me. I try to give people lots of warning too, so that they won't be taken unawares.
 

Sarcasticus

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The other issue with an SO is that the INFJ can leave their friends for a few days if they get frustrated. They can't do that with you!

Good point. She does this sometimes.


Any ideas for what to do about this? Is it helpful to explain what a valuable function you are performing and that it is really mostly emotional noise to determine what matters and what doesn't? Should they try to go elsewhere as much as possible? Does thanking the person for listening make a difference?

Sure. I think some meta-narrative along the lines of "can I vent for a few minutes? can I ask that you just listen and not get defensive?" would keep me from being blindsided but ultimately it's up to me to have a thicker skin and not get my hackles up.
 

Arclight

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I don't think I'd continue posting if it got to that. That's about the worst that you'll be likely to ever see out of me. I try to give people lots of warning too, so that they won't be taken unawares.

If that's your worst, I will have to reconsider my nick name for you.. perhaps Kitten Lady would be more apt than Cat Lady. :whistling:
 

Fidelia

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So, pretty much what EJCC was suggested to do with ESTJs that way. Good to know! I for a long time assumed that everyone vented and so it hadn't occurred to me to give a heads up before because I thought they would naturally know what I was doing! I realize though that it can feel like dodging bullets and if someone gets stuck on a subject and seems over-emotional and unreasonable, it can get pretty wearing. When/about what do you find it hardest to listen?
 

Fidelia

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If that's your worst, I will have to reconsider my nick name for you.. perhaps Kitten Lady would be more apt than Cat Lady. :whistling:

It has only been recently that I have considered the possibility of this being useful to do (being that direct, I mean) under the right conditions for mutual benefit and coming to a better understanding. If the same had happened in real life, it would not have gone down that way. If I bother to have conflict with someone, it is usually only the people in my very inner circle, or people that I will have to work with (and cannot work around) in my everyday existence (work or roommate).

As strange as it sounds, I think it actually is a compliment in most cases if an INFJ does think that it is worth trying to have conflict. On the rare occasions where I've done it, it nearly always has resulted in a much closer relationship after and fewer problems. I did this with a boss/coworker once and we have remained very good friends to this day in a way that we wouldn't have been had it not happened. It feels very unnatural to me though. I would more likely play out the possible scenario in my head and decide it just wasn't worth it because of the way that I thought the other person would respond, the unlikelihood of coming to resolution, or ensuing emotional load that I would need to deal with after the fact. I think sometimes that's what bugs people about INFJs. They maybe feel like we write them off too easily or that we just abandon them if they don't do what we want them to.

Perhaps I should have said it here instead of via rep, but I think it's important to make the distinction between an emotional outburst of anger and someone expressing that there is danger ahead. INFJs really don't like to not be in control of their emotions and in particularly don't like to be publicly not in control of their emotions. In my opinion, it would be unlikely to see an INFJ go off on you unless they felt it was preventing something worse from happening.
 

sculpting

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Ouch. That hurt. Because I consider myself a great communicator. And, I usually am. But apparently, I have a blind spot I didn't even know about.

Even weirder is that I've been formally trained in active listening techniques. :doh:

Nonetheless, I reluctantly admit that Peacebaby is correct.

I guess both ways are valid. But I never would have applied the Fe-way outside of certain settings I was trained to use it in.

And, what I've come to understand today, is that my Fi way was so fundamental to who I was, it never even occurred to me that there was another way of doing it.

Excellent. I can't wait to try it out on my Fe friends and see what they do. :smile:

hahaha! Yeah, I had no idea I did this until my ENFJ friend said so...this is why taking that Fe feedback and really stopping a few seconds to listen and think..even if it stings..can be quite useful. I still do it with other Fi users, but I actively experiment on my Fe friends.

I went to lunch with my ISFJ friend who I havent seen lately last week.

I was like "hmmm, I need to listen to her, then ask her questions about her...." I did this and then after a bit she went "Oh, well lets stop talking about me, how are you doing?" Uh-Uh, no you dont hehehehe, I just kept asking her more about her for a bit longer. It was amazing how happy she was. Sometimes it is hard though as I have to take the topic and twist it in my mind. I am used to internalizing what she says-so to then replay and then ask more questions doesnt come naturally, so at times I end up at a loss for what to ask next.

But it made her seem very happy.
 

Fidelia

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This works well on INFJs too. We're pretty good as listening to other people and I've often found that Fi users will talk and talk to me. However, there often doesn't seem to be that question asking shift where they say, "Now, how about you?" and start asking questions. I feel rude breaking in and just talking about myself, particularly if I'm not sure the other person is all that interested (again that thing about wanting to be sure we're really welcome and that the other person WANTS to understand us rather than is just humouring us.)
 

cascadeco

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This works well on INFJs too. We're pretty good as listening to other people and I've often found that Fi users will talk and talk to me. However, there often doesn't seem to be that question asking shift where they say, "Now, how about you?" and start asking questions. I feel rude breaking in and just talking about myself, particularly if I'm not sure the other person is all that interested (again that thing about wanting to be sure we're really welcome and that the other person WANTS to understand us rather than is just humouring us.)

:yes: I've noticed this as well. I often think Fi users want me to want to share voluntarily, without being prompted, whereas I would prefer being prompted so that I know they want to know.

Turning it around, I think it's because I ask people stuff if I want to know about it; otherwise I don't ask or I don't continue asking questions or digging deeper. Change subject or something.(or, they'll keep talking even though I haven't really divulged/given the cue that I'm all that interested :blush:)
 

uumlau

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This works well on INFJs too. We're pretty good as listening to other people and I've often found that Fi users will talk and talk to me. However, there often doesn't seem to be that question asking shift where they say, "Now, how about you?" and start asking questions. I feel rude breaking in and just talking about myself, particularly if I'm not sure the other person is all that interested (again that thing about wanting to be sure we're really welcome and that the other person WANTS to understand us rather than is just humouring us.)

:yes: I've noticed this as well. I often think Fi users want me to want to share voluntarily, without being prompted, whereas I would prefer being prompted so that I know they want to know.

Turning it around, I think it's because I ask people stuff if I want to know about it; otherwise I don't ask or I don't continue asking questions or digging deeper. Change subject or something.(or, they'll keep talking even though I haven't really divulged/given the cue that I'm all that interested :blush:)

Yes, Fi users want you to share voluntarily. To translate into Fe terms, if Fi breaches the topic of one's own feelings, then implicit permission is given to you to divulge your own feelings, especially as related (by topic matter) to what the Fi user reveals.

Think of it in terms of Fi precision: in Fi terms, there is no adequate question that can be asked. To Fi, "How are you?" is merely another form of "Hello" and not a "real question," because experience proves that most people who express an interest in how we feel don't want the "real answer." So to Fi, there is no good question and no good answer, so it's best to just say how one feels if one feels moved to do so.

You might wonder how to "cut off" someone from endlessly nattering on about their feelings and experiences. The most effective is to simply affirm their feelings and maybe offer a practical solution if one is obvious - but affirming their feelings is enough. Don't try to explain how their feelings are wrong or inappropriate or shouldn't be expressed: this will extend the interaction into even more annoying territory, just say, "Yeah, that really sucks," or whatever is appropriate.

Another way is to divulge your own feelings, should you believe it appropriate to do so, and don't wait for them to ask: the mere fact that they're divulging feelings means the topic is opened, and they'll not be upset should you discuss your own experience.

A final way is to be more "INTJ" about it, and simply cut off communication, tersely. If you wait for a polite exit, the opportunity will rarely arise, because it relies upon the other having your sense of politeness. A simple, "Excuse me, but I have to go," should work OK.

Reversing this, the Fe user's polite inquiry sounds offensive to the Fi user. If we wanted to talk about our feelings, we'd be talking about them already, and now we have to figure out how to refuse the inquiry. (You wonder why a "no" doesn't suffice? There is something about "Fe" language that seems to be heard in Fi terms that "no" isn't an acceptable answer, that the Fe user would be offended by the "no.")

The best way to address this is just to recognize the signs, rather than give in to the annoyance factor. If you're Fe, and you hear an Fi person spout out about feelings, translate it into Fe speak, where the Fi user is asking how you feel about the topic, implicitly. It's just bass-ackwardsly saying how they feel first. And feel free to just say what you feel, and don't be obliged to inquire. If you're Fi, don't treat a question as to how you feel as being nosy. The proper way to say "no" is "I'm doing fine, thank you for asking." If the topic isn't too private, and you feel comfortable opening up, do so. After the topic has been about you and your feelings for 2 or 3 rounds, ask about their feelings. E.g., simply ask "What's you're opinion on the matter?" Remember that they need your permission to tell you what they really think. They won't just up and say it like you normally would.
 

Fidelia

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If it's obvious to the Fe user that something's wrong, but the Fi person doesn't want to talk about it, it's okay to say, "I just need a little time to sort out my thoughts on my own". If the Fe user persists (because that is polite in our world and assures the person that we really do care and are not just asking a perfunctory question), then it's alright to thank them for their conern and assure them that they can be very helpful just by giving some time/space. Often the Fe user is just trying to express that their care for the other person or be proactively helpful. They feel rejected or useless when they can't do anything to help. By offering them something that they can do (give space), they will much more quickly leave the Fi user alone and not feel hurt in the same way!
 

PeaceBaby

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I have a feeling that perhaps some INFP issues with INFJs may be different than ENFP ones with INFJs. Do you think that's true, or not? I think INFJs would like to reciprocally understand and respond to other people's Big Deals. I'm just not sure how to get you to verbalize them so that I can better understand them without seeming intrusive.

I do know that one of the big things is making you feel accepted for who you are first without making the person feel that that continued acceptance is based on becoming what they could be or taking the advice given. In the absence of having any practical ways to help a person who seems "stuck", we get discouraged and start feeling like the person is not looking for solutions without understanding what else is going on. Do you have any practical suggestions for coming to a better understanding of the situation without putting pressure on the person.

Well, I may not be the best INFP to ask; I don't feel representative of the INFP population.. keep in mind I am group-oriented, SO dom, 9w1. For me it's all about the harmony, and my life experience as well has shaped a particular POV oriented to align my Fi values with an Fe perspective.

So with that disclaimer in place:

I think Fi has a hard time expressing itself. Words almost seem insufficient to do the feelings justice. Just as you sometimes decide that conflict is just not worth entering into, I often give up trying to verbally construct the dynamic of feelings that I am currently reflecting on. It just ... comes out wrong. When faced with a great deal of emotional intensity, I have to try a bunch of times to have a hope of even being close to getting it "right".

And sometimes, it just comes out bad, which upsets people, because Fi doesn't always verbalize in a politically-correct way, and instead of people realizing they're hearing a rough draft, they assume this is the final copy. So people get upset, and then I have to deal with them being upset, instead when I'm upset ... you see the pattern. :)

If you truly want to overcome any INFP communication issues, as advice, I would suggest trying to listen and simply empathize rather than try to fix or sympathize. Until the intensity of Fi expression has passed ... don't take anything at face value, don't critique it, don't offer suggestions ... just hear it. Nod your head, pat a hand, give Fi some space.

Most Fi users will then be able to work through their own solutions from that space. At that point, where the Fi user is clearly engaging Te, trying to fix their own stuff, your suggestions are hugely embraced and eagerly contemplated. Ne welcomes that variety of possibilities for solutions, gets excited at the prospect of "light at the end of the tunnel" and can swing back to optimistic implementation.

Using the lovely "light" metaphor earlier in thread, if you try to change our colour, prematurely influence our colour, we will not truly feel valued or listened to. You do not know what is best for us, and since we don't generally assume to know what is best for you, it is presumptuous to think you would know better. :)

This works well on INFJs too. We're pretty good as listening to other people and I've often found that Fi users will talk and talk to me. However, there often doesn't seem to be that question asking shift where they say, "Now, how about you?" and start asking questions. I feel rude breaking in and just talking about myself, particularly if I'm not sure the other person is all that interested (again that thing about wanting to be sure we're really welcome and that the other person WANTS to understand us rather than is just humouring us.)

:yes: I've noticed this as well. I often think Fi users want me to want to share voluntarily, without being prompted, whereas I would prefer being prompted so that I know they want to know.

LOL, I have the same complaint. I listen so much, and often wonder "when do I get my turn...?"

When Fi users talk and talk to you, it's usually because we've been wandering in the desert, listening to lots of other people, and waiting for our turn to have a drink too, we are parched and thirsty ...

But you know what's kind of sad ... we know we are over-sharing in these situations, but it just feels good to be listened to for a change. Generally I will sense I am boring someone or their patience or attention-span is drying up, so I switch it over to talk about you. But, for those moments, it feels good. :)

Yes, Fi users want you to share voluntarily. To translate into Fe terms, if Fi breaches the topic of one's own feelings, then implicit permission is given to you to divulge your own feelings, especially as related (by topic matter) to what the Fi user reveals.

Agreed.

Think of it in terms of Fi precision: in Fi terms, there is no adequate question that can be asked. To Fi, "How are you?" is merely another form of "Hello" and not a "real question," because experience proves that most people who express an interest in how we feel don't want the "real answer." So to Fi, there is no good question and no good answer, so it's best to just say how one feels if one feels moved to do so.

Agreed.

You might wonder how to "cut off" someone from endlessly nattering on about their feelings and experiences. The most effective is to simply affirm their feelings and maybe offer a practical solution if one is obvious - but affirming their feelings is enough. Don't try to explain how their feelings are wrong or inappropriate or shouldn't be expressed: this will extend the interaction into even more annoying territory, just say, "Yeah, that really sucks," or whatever is appropriate.

@bold: Yes, you don't have to agree with them; just acknowledge them is a better word.

Another way is to divulge your own feelings, should you believe it appropriate to do so, and don't wait for them to ask: the mere fact that they're divulging feelings means the topic is opened, and they'll not be upset should you discuss your own experience.

Agreed, unless we know we'll just start talking about you again and never get back to "me". This happens ALL.THE.TIME ... IRL.

A final way is to be more "INTJ" about it, and simply cut off communication, tersely. If you wait for a polite exit, the opportunity will rarely arise, because it relies upon the other having your sense of politeness. A simple, "Excuse me, but I have to go," should work OK.

Oh my, don't say that. I will already know I am over-staying my welcome, and a nice hug or shoulder-squeeze, a check of the watch and an empathic "I would really love to hear more, and I have enjoyed sharing with you, but I do have to go" warms my heart in a way that "Excuse me, but I have to go" never will. That response would tend to make me feel that I have burdened you with my speaking, and generally will ensure I don't talk much with you in the future. (Although I guess if that's what you want, that's what you'll get.)

Edit: or, more to the point I will make a mental note: I can talk to uumlau about topic X for approximately 4 minutes until he starts to fidget, shift his eyes away from time to time and appear bored, so I will cut it short before we get there next time.

---

The reality is that most people don't want to hear what you really think or feel ... so a special person who truly listens is a valuable commodity.

uumlau's other suggestions there have merit, but I feel weary all of a sudden to comment on them ... I feel like the dance is a little more complicated than he outlines, but it's a great, insightful post. :)

Off to make dinner; I must need some protein.
 

Quiet

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:)

It would seem from these last couple of posts, that Fi and Fe users, are both trying to be considerate of each other.

Fi users need somehow to be validated, and feel a sense of rejection of they are not, and Fe users, need to know they were appreciated for having their opinion (attention) matter in the first place... sigh!

I think those on the extreme ends of the typing can learn a great deal from eachother, and those within a close percentage of the P and J functions, can see both sides.
 

Abstract Thinker

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I think Fi has a hard time expressing itself. Words almost seem insufficient to do the feelings justice. Just as you sometimes decide that conflict is just not worth entering into, I often give up trying to verbally construct the dynamic of feelings that I am currently reflecting on.

This, exactly... at least for me. Very well said.
 

Arclight

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It has only been recently that I have considered the possibility of this being useful to do (being that direct, I mean) under the right conditions for mutual benefit and coming to a better understanding. If the same had happened in real life, it would not have gone down that way. If I bother to have conflict with someone, it is usually only the people in my very inner circle, or people that I will have to work with (and cannot work around) in my everyday existence (work or roommate).

As strange as it sounds, I think it actually is a compliment in most cases if an INFJ does think that it is worth trying to have conflict. On the rare occasions where I've done it, it nearly always has resulted in a much closer relationship after and fewer problems. I did this with a boss/coworker once and we have remained very good friends to this day in a way that we wouldn't have been had it not happened. It feels very unnatural to me though. I would more likely play out the possible scenario in my head and decide it just wasn't worth it because of the way that I thought the other person would respond, the unlikelihood of coming to resolution, or ensuing emotional load that I would need to deal with after the fact. I think sometimes that's what bugs people about INFJs. They maybe feel like we write them off too easily or that we just abandon them if they don't do what we want them to.

Perhaps I should have said it here instead of via rep, but I think it's important to make the distinction between an emotional outburst of anger and someone expressing that there is danger ahead. INFJs really don't like to not be in control of their emotions and in particularly don't like to be publicly not in control of their emotions. In my opinion, it would be unlikely to see an INFJ go off on you unless they felt it was preventing something worse from happening.

I have always believed (but not always practiced) that it's not that you have conflict, but how you deal with it.

Conflict is unavoidable or at least inevitable. Especially when people are close.

It's kind of like your rule of proximity.

The addition you added to what you said in my rep , The stuff about losing control of emotions and the in public part.. each time a certain point is made

Hmm.. I have decided Imaginary will explain it better.

I started out with a single thought on a subject ( a persons behavior) each bit of new information does not cancel out the old information, but rather builds upon it.. each branch a new idea, each new idea adding more information. But each new idea must be compared and sequenced and cannot stand alone. So my thoughts become very confused as the ideas grow and am left feeling something like this
488571-vp_logobox_skatemental_large.gif


It's not that I can't handle it, it's just easier to tell a one paragraph story as opposed to a 1200 page book.

At the same time my confusion grows one way, something emerges from the other direction.
That looks like this
20070305_Unfinished+puzzle_01.JPG


As I take in more information I become overwhelmed. but something I don't control eventually starts to filter it, and a picture begins to emerge

And a picture is worth a 1000 words.

You have been a great help. :worthy: :hug:
 
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