[MBTI General] INF depth?

[the_snumeister]

sorry if this is a stupid question...
but my enfj friend and i got irritated that an infp myspace contact "surpassed" us with her poetic projection of depth. (sounds immature i know but it was more.."tension energy" because her image was so pure and innocent compared to our bitter, cynical selves
my friend reckons she isn't being genuine and "appears deeper than she is" but there's no doubt infps are deep. maybe "values" just don't count for much to her...

it's like i "know" what the difference is between how depth is manifested for us (infp and infj) but it's still in swirly form and i can't quite convert it to words. so i wondering if you guys could offer something more clear cut for me?

 

[Kiddo]

sorry if this is a stupid question...
but my enfj friend and i got irritated that an infp myspace contact "surpassed" us with her poetic projection of depth. (sounds immature i know but it was more.."tension energy" because her image was so pure and innocent compared to our bitter, cynical selves
my friend reckons she isn't being genuine and "appears deeper than she is" but there's no doubt infps are deep. maybe "values" just don't count for much to her...

it's like i "know" what the difference is between how depth is manifested for us (infp and infj) but it's still in swirly form and i can't quite convert it to words. so i wondering if you guys could offer something more clear cut for me?

It's difficult to determine exactly what you are trying to understand.

I think that INFXs exist mostly under the surface, where their true selves can't be easily touched by the outside world. However, since INFPs can seem a bit more "bubbly" and "naive" in what they do show the outside world as compared to the INFJs stoic and controlled demeanor, it isn't difficult to get the impression that they are very innocent. Then when they choose to express their true hidden depth, it can be confounding and make them appear inauthentic because it stands in stark contrast to what we had come to percieve as their true selves. However, I wouldn't say it is two-faced or insincere because INFJs also don't show their true colors to the outside world until a degree of trust is established.

As far as the amount of "depth", I wouldn't say that one type could really be described as having more than the other. I would say INFJs express a different type of depth than INFPs, and so it can seem that we "surpass" each other. That would probably be indicative of the Ni,Fe vs. Ne,Fi. You would have to ask BW about that since he is the self proclaimed expert on the "Fi effect". I just don't have the background knowledge in the theory to describe it.

 

[cafe]

I think NFJs can have a pretty pragmatic side compared to our INFP sibs. I don't see why one set of traits has more value than the other, though.

 

[Athenian200]

sorry if this is a stupid question...
but my enfj friend and i got irritated that an infp myspace contact "surpassed" us with her poetic projection of depth. (sounds immature i know but it was more.."tension energy" because her image was so pure and innocent compared to our bitter, cynical selves
my friend reckons she isn't being genuine and "appears deeper than she is" but there's no doubt infps are deep. maybe "values" just don't count for much to her...

it's like i "know" what the difference is between how depth is manifested for us (infp and infj) but it's still in swirly form and i can't quite convert it to words. so i wondering if you guys could offer something more clear cut for me?

I had a friend who I explained this to, and what they said made a lot of sense to me. It's similar to the tension/frustration that INTJ's feel when an INTP surpasses them intellectually. If you just remember that NT's desire competence/skill in a logical way, and NF's desire depth/purity of emotion, it all makes sense.

This was also coupled with the idea that Introverted functions are closer to their unconscious roots... which also makes sense. My emotion has to be associated with an idea or situation that I can picture in order for me to feel it. INFP's feeling isn't usually based on anything observable, and is subject to it's own standards. My feeling doesn't quite have those sort of internal standards (at least not consciously), the essence has to be inferred from processing a perception, a perspective, a pattern. So I feel connected to people when I believe they can feel what I do in similar situations. They just feel this innate sense of connection that's more than enviable, and it's frustrating that they write off any of my perceptions about their feelings as being "logic" or "shallow." Nothing could be more insulting.

And yes, I think INFP's do seem more cheerful than INFJ's, unless they get melancholy in which case their "low" seems lower than ours. But I also think they have more to react to...

INFJ: Ni Fe Ti

INFP: Fi Ne Si

Now think about the types that have those functions. INTx's and ISTP's.

But INFP's? ISFP and ISxJ. Far warmer and needing far less specification and awareness/processing to deal with a feeling... like something is "just there" for them that isn't for me.

INFP's also remind me of how short I fall of my desire to be a deeper, more meaningful individual because they seem more able to trust any emotion, while I can only embrace emotions that I can understand in terms of how I perceive things. It makes me feel... so lacking somehow.

 

[runvardh]

athenian, you make up for it by more accurately and more concisely explaining the shit that I'd only be able to explain with a round the bush set of metaphors. All function combinations have a purpose it's when they're devoid of others that any set becomes pointless.

 

[GZA]

I don't want to get off topic, but I think this is also interesting in how it addresses how type awareness changes people's attitudes. Would you have the same kind of competitive attitude (thats what it sounds like) with this person if you were unaware of the concept of "INFJ" and "INFP"? How would you view them? I personally try to disregard someone type if it causes a problem like this and consider their personality in more generic terms for an explaination. This avoids the whole "oh no, I'm being beat by a ----!".

Are INFP's deeper than INFJ? I don't know, personally, but I know that INFJ's certainly are more serious and organized than INFP's, who are often silly and, as someone said, naive in their behavior . This contrast might make an INFP's depth suprising -going from a seemingly random goofball to a deep, poetic personality, while its not so true with INFJ because the personality they project isn't... well, almost the opposite of deep and poetic like INFP can be.

I don't know what much about INFP and INFJ when it comes to the P/J aspect of things, but as an INFP I know that a lot of my... deeper personality, the real personality is about possibilities. What can I be, what can this be, what can happen, what can we do? What are the possibilities?. A lot of it is, of course, the emotional reaction to things (although I'd say the emotional reaction and the possibilities are very closely connected). How does this make me feel?. I think this generally gets manifested in creative ways, such as writing, and in general speach it is manifested in the seemingly random behaviour of INFP's A good example for me is that in the summer (as in, when its warm enough out) I like to go for runs very late at night -no earlier than midnight... usually midnight right on the nose, actually. People find this bizarre due to the lack of logical reason to do that at that time, and several misconceptions (that it must be dangerous at night and it must be too dark to see. Not true, there is no one outside and there are street lights. I live in a safe neighborhood). I do it because of the way it makes me feel, the night makes me feel at peace, and the running makes me feel at peace, too. It also gives me time to think about possibilities, or, in jung terms, use my intuition to the max for personal enjoyment. Being outside in an ever shifting environment (because you are running) provides good inspiration for these thoughts.

AND I just realized my example doesn't exactly fit the idea of manifestation of depth, but I hope it helped a bit anyway

 

[theshadow]

INFP's also remind me of how short I fall of my desire to be a deeper, more meaningful individual because they seem more able to trust any emotion, while I can only embrace emotions that I can understand in terms of how I perceive things. It makes me feel... so lacking somehow.

damn :steam: .

I know these feelings very well

 

[quietgirl]

I think it depends on your perception of "deep".

I am viewed as "deep" by more thinking types, probably because I'm lead by Ni. Fe is more of an outward function and I'll fully admit that I am not as emotionally deep as the INFP's I know. Fi types seem to think of me as more cold, fake, or lacking emotional depth.

INFP's seem to be viewed as "deep" by feeling types because of their spectacular command of Fi. Thinking types (and heavily Fe types, I'm guessing) tend to view Fi as irrational or lacking intellectual depth.

Neither person is right or wrong, it's just about perception. This is by no means definite... just my observations!

 

[the_snumeister]

oh no, i definitely wasn't implying that i thought one had more value than the other. i'm actually fascinated by infps, hence why i wanted to understand the difference between infj and infp depth, and how both is manifested. yikes i agree i could've made my initial post clearer but i definitely wasn't so sure of much myself...

if i didn't know she was an infp, i would've viewed it as antagonism towards those who act "beautifully broken", as i have had negative feelings towards a similar character before i found type theory. the reason i attributed it to mbti was because i wanted to know how the functions determined this difference, as consulting expertise on the model would offer more insight into the divergent tangents both types operate on, and how that plays a part in determining each type's source of depth, since i only know the basics. :S

My emotion has to be associated with an idea or situation that I can picture in order for me to feel it. INFP's feeling isn't usually based on anything observable, and is subject to it's own standards. My feeling doesn't quite have those sort of internal standards (at least not consciously), the essence has to be inferred from processing a perception, a perspective, a pattern. So I feel connected to people when I believe they can feel what I do in similar situations. They just feel this innate sense of connection that's more than enviable, and it's frustrating that they write off any of my perceptions about their feelings as being "logic" or "shallow." Nothing could be more insulting.

yes, that rings very true to me. i know when i express feeling it indeed comes across more "angsty" with Fe making obvious it's externally reactive. now i realise it's not really fair to compare the two when we contrast how depth of feeling is manifested. knowing *why* i feel certain ways is as deep into my feelings as it gets for me.

hm, so the competitiveness was after all actually due to, as you said quietgirl, because Fi appears so deep to feeling types, and only my enfj friend who really knows me has called me "deep" whereas the infp girl appeared to others as the deepest person they've ever 'read'.
when my friend pointed out she "didn't buy it", i knew it was because she'd been reading my blogs for ages. so she could've processed a biased criteria on what passes for "deep". i never did think one was more than the other but now i also question what makes me deep?

 

[Mempy]

I think NFJs can have a pretty pragmatic side compared to our INFP sibs. I don't see why one set of traits has more value than the other, though.

I agree. INFJs do seem more naturally pragmatic. I think that because INFPs lead with Fi they can seem like one of the most inner-directed and poetic types. It's that overwhelming dominant feeling. ISFPs, also because of Fi, are seen as artists, but their Se adds to their pragmatism and would seem to make them more "hands-on" and fit for the "real world."

It's all a bit of pish posh in the long run, but the concepts I've just mentioned have some merit. In the /long run/, INFPs develop more pragmatism that they weren't necessarily born with, and those who aren't as lost in their heads, begin to become more inner-directed and perhaps more "profoundly poetic" over time.

Being so inner-directed and poetic has some serious pitfalls, if it's not balanced out with some pragmatism, but it might be irritating to listen to someone talk about the "darker half" of a trait you envy. It's kind of like when I don't like listening to my friend complain that she can't usually find a pair of pants long enough for her lovely long legs.

But what you start out with isn't important. It's what you make of yourself over time. It's how you adapt and grow. And INFPs, for their "depth," haha, have a lot of adapting to do, when you flip the coin and see that being so damn emotional and dreamy all the time leads to forgetfulness, whimsy, being stuck in one's head, not being "grounded," depression, lack of pragmatism, lack of real-world skills, etc. Basically, INFPs are often in need of a reality check and some assertiveness. Instead of trapping themselves inside their thoughts and emotions, they need to try out the real world and involve themselves, and learn to stick UP for themselves, too.

I think INFJs are deep in a different way. Because of their third-rung Ti, they can delve into more intellectual depth than INFPs. INFJs are emotional, but they often tie their emotions in with more logical thoughts. It's kind of amazing to see how well-thought out and intellectual some of their thoughts are. They also seem more prone to fixing the world, with their J follow-through. Kind of like knights crusading (but, for a noble cause, haha).

At the start of the race, INFPs are the minstrels and INFJs are the gallant knights. At the end, they both become more than what they were at the start.

 

[marm]

I'm obsessed with depth, and often feel stuck in my own depths.

I can close my eyes and feel pure Feeling that excludes all else. When I'm in the right mood, I can be highly empathic feeling someone's feelings as if they were my own... but that takes effort and so mostly I keep to my own depths.

I like INFJs to a great extent. Many of my close relationships are with INFJs. I'm very fascinated with Ni, and even the Fe as they use it is endearing to a slight extent.

I sorta understand why some might think of it that way, but I've never thought about INFJs lacking depth. I would've thought that Ni's connection to the unconscious would be experienced just as deep as Fi. I guess that tertiary Thinking makes a big difference.

INFPs may be deep, but INFJs always seem sincere to me. INFPs can be quite self-concerned and self-contained in their depths.

 

[nightning]

It a different sort of depth between Fi and Ni. INFPs I believe have a strong sense of emotional grounding. From that, they derive their convections and firm believes. As an INFJ looking at them with Fe, the depth comes from how they're sure about Feelings... being able to just experience them by themselves... whereas we feel things vicariously using Fe. We don't feel... not really. Fe in its fullest reflects the perceived feelings almost before the other person is aware of their feelings. Yet none of this will appear if we're just by ourselves. Not without Fi. So it always feel as if the feelings aren't really genuine. I'm envious of INFPs freedom in Fi.

The depth in Ni is rooted in ideas. The building of ideas together into one complete 'theory' for the lack of better words. An INTP told me once discussing ideas with me was rewarding because of the Ni - Ne interaction. The depth comes from synthesis of a whole that Ne never considered. And thus a XNXP view us as deep.

The two types of depth are completely different though. It's nice to appreciate each other's gifts.

 

[Athenian200]

It a different sort of depth between Fi and Ni. INFPs I believe have a strong sense of emotional grounding. From that, they derive their convections and firm believes. As an INFJ looking at them with Fe, the depth comes from how they're sure about Feelings... being able to just experience them by themselves... whereas we feel things vicariously using Fe. We don't feel... not really. Fe in its fullest reflects the perceived feelings almost before the other person is aware of their feelings. Yet none of this will appear if we're just by ourselves. Not without Fi. So it always feel as if the feelings aren't really genuine. I'm envious of INFPs freedom in Fi.

The depth in Ni is rooted in ideas. The building of ideas together into one complete 'theory' for the lack of better words. An INTP told me once discussing ideas with me was rewarding because of the Ni - Ne interaction. The depth comes from synthesis of a whole that Ne never considered. And thus a XNXP view us as deep.

The two types of depth are completely different though. It's nice to appreciate each other's gifts.

Feeling so deeply and directly probably has it's own pains and drawbacks for INFP's. Although it can make me feel lacking since I desire most of all to find the deeper meaning of things, to feel according to something higher. Here's a post I wrote in reply to wildcat once (I tried to write it the way he writes hoping that it might facilitate communication, so it may be difficult to understand. I'll explain any thing that isn't clear.)

But I do hope that we can learn to appreciate them, although we experience things so differently in some ways.

So, Fe covers all of Fi? Not exactly. On the outside, yes. But from the observer's perspective? No. The missing element? Direct experience of the emotion by the observer. It's felt by the others, and can be internally confirmed by the observer via their reflections and ideas, even written, but never seen directly on the internal level. We can easily know what we are feeling, and are driven to know. But we can only know, not feel. The advantage? Awareness of what others are feeling. Does Fi exist in Fe's? Technically yes. But we aren't directly aware of it. The Intuitive is luckier, though. Intuition acts as the best mirror.

How do we know that waves exist outside the visible spectrum if we can't see them? By the effect they have on objects attuned to their presence.

How did Newton discover gravity? Did he see it with his eyes? No. He saw the apple fall, and inferred gravity from the impact it had upon the apple.

The reason we constantly output emotion is in hopes that another will reflect it back. Holding a forward-directed flashlight, desperate for mirrors, but all the mirrors are slightly flawed, curved, or dim. So we need several to get a glimpse of ourselves.

So, Fe is feeling projected onto the object, reflected back. What you believed covered Fi was only the reflection of it.

So, INFP's... please remember when we seem to be gushing or shallow at times, that we have to express emotion and experience a response first to really feel it. It isn't just there to be seen and built on...

 

[heart]

my friend reckons she isn't being genuine and "appears deeper than she is" but there's no doubt infps are deep. maybe "values" just don't count for much to her...

I have recieved these vibes and even snarky underhanded comments from people often in my life. Mostly from Te dom types or ES.

My husband's brother told him in no uncertain terms during our dating that I was not who I presented myself as and that I was merely minicking back to him what he wanted most to hear and believe about me. The first time BIL met me, he looked me up and down and then got this huge frown on his face like I was the worst person he ever met. That bugged me for a lng time, I wondered what he saw that he did not like. I still do.

Brother in law also informed me on day of our wedding that he believed this about me, that I was just presenting an image my husband wanted to see and believe in. Then he told me that he knew my husband wished he had a prettier wife but was too softhearted and taken in by me to say it...*sigh* He really had an issue with me and appeared to be this same type of thing you are talking about, sorry to ramble, brought back a memory is all.

 

[runvardh]

Heart, for many I'm best an imaginary character rather than a real person; when it comes to us some just find it hard to swallow the red pill...

 

[cafe]

Ugh, Heart, how insulting to both of you! And on your wedding day.

I've had the pleasure of raising an Fi dominant child for the past almost 13 years. She has been like she is always, so I know it's for real. I feel for her sometimes, being that . . . feeling. Sometimes I can barely bear it vicariously, so I can't imagine.

 

[nightning]

Feeling so deeply and directly probably has it's own pains and drawbacks for INFP's. Although it can make me feel lacking since I desire most of all to find the deeper meaning of things, to feel according to something higher. Here's a post I wrote in reply to wildcat once (I tried to write it the way he writes hoping that it might facilitate communication, so it may be difficult to understand. I'll explain any thing that isn't clear.)

But I do hope that we can learn to appreciate them, although we experience things so differently in some ways.

That was my intent... win some, lose some... freedom to feel means to feel everything. As much as I would like to feel Fi... I doubt I can handle their emotional pains. Oh and envy really isn't as bad a thing as people imagine it to be...

I appreciate... and hope that I can draw on their skills sometimes.

So, Fe covers all of Fi? Not exactly. On the outside, yes. But from the observer's perspective? No. The missing element? Direct experience of the emotion by the observer. It's felt by the others, and can be internally confirmed by the observer via their reflections and ideas, even written, but never seen directly on the internal level. We can easily know what we are feeling, and are driven to know. But we can only know, not feel. The advantage? Awareness of what others are feeling. Does Fi exist in Fe's? Technically yes. But we aren't directly aware of it. The Intuitive is luckier, though. Intuition acts as the best mirror.

How do we know that waves exist outside the visible spectrum if we can't see them? By the effect they have on objects attuned to their presence.

How did Newton discover gravity? Did he see it with his eyes? No. He saw the apple fall, and inferred gravity from the impact it had upon the apple.

The reason we constantly output emotion is in hopes that another will reflect it back. Holding a forward-directed flashlight, desperate for mirrors, but all the mirrors are slightly flawed, curved, or dim. So we need several to get a glimpse of ourselves.

So, Fe is feeling projected onto the object, reflected back. What you believed covered Fi was only the reflection of it.

*nods* Fe is a mirror. It's a cold thing. What's felt is merely what we perceived the other person has felt. I do believe Fi is accessible by us INFJs though. It's just that Fe tends to override it most of the time.

 

[Athenian200]

That was my intent... win some, lose some... freedom to feel means to feel everything. As much as I would like to feel Fi... I doubt I can handle their emotional pains. Oh and envy really isn't as bad a thing as people imagine it to be...

In this case, envy could be taken as something of a compliment, actually.

*nods* Fe is a mirror. It's a cold thing. What's felt is merely what we perceived the other person has felt. I do believe Fi is accessible by us INFJs though. It's just that Fe tends to override it most of the time.

I wouldn't call Fe cold... it's just not internal. It really seems like I only really feel something while the thing provoking the feeling is actually there, or I'm imagining that situation or perspective again. The feeling can't be separated from the trigger. If the trigger is removed, the feeling is as well (at least consciously). So as soon as I realize that a person didn't intend something the way I took it, my feelings tend to realign with the new perception of the situation. So I can go from angry to pleased (and vice-versa) much more quickly. One of the weirdest examples someone else noticed was when I was irritated with someone I was talking to in person, and I then picked up the phone and spoke pleasantly to the other person whole time, and then put it down and resumed seeming frustrated.

 

[ferrisbueller]

I imagine that having Fi as a dominant function would be intense. I'm almost an xNFP, so I feel like my Fi is pretty well developed for a secondary function, and sometimes I can barely handle the intensity of it all.

 

[the_snumeister]

thanks everyone, your replies have been helpful.

We should also note that the Extroverted Intuition of the INFP is often aimed inwards due to the primacy of an Introverted Function-Introverted Feeling. Fi-Introverted Feeling, bends the Extroverted Intuition inwards and therefore creates the effect germane to Introverted Intuition.

is this analogous to how an infj would access their "witch" Fi?