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[NF] ENFJ-INFP Friendship

Neutralpov

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Joined
Jun 29, 2009
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310
YESSS

Finally, it was only two years ago that I finally realized that INFJs do a very poor job of reading what I don't express. (I don't know if ENFJs have better luck.) I always figured I was an open book to my INFJ friends, so it was quite the shock to realize that I not only wasn't, but that they found my inner depths completely unreadable.

It was only much later I realized that some people need emotions to be expressed for them to be tangible. I can appreciate this viewpoint now, but in the past it was simply something I never considered.

It is so weird to finally have someone else see what I couldn't put in words. Thanks, these threads are good stuff. I felt that for a long time in my gut but it is something you can't get mad at someone for, especially if they are genuine. But the thing is over too much time it becomes a problem that our gut picks up on, and I couldn't explain it.

There is a book on this topic of ENFJ marriages, (I believe How to Stop Elderly Abuse- it is based on type, don't let the title scare you. It is the precursor to Power Dating Games: What's Important to Know About the Person You'll Marry by Anne Hart) and it says that ENFJ will resent Fi because it withholds affection and we ENFJ's won't admit or ask for it but we in fact do need it.

All in all it is good to hear the human side of this, meaning it isn't because people don't care, and I am not stupid for doing what is best for myself. Which is really hard to do when it means hurting someone's feelings. It has really made me take a look at my needs and really view them as worthy, which I forget in my group leader status-no longer.
 

JoSunshine

That's my name biotch!
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
659
MBTI Type
eNfj
Enneagram
2
its not about logic, its about how he feels. and, almost certainly, he feels like you are basically saying "this is too slow for me" or "I cant/dont/whatever accept your way of doing this" or something else to the general effect of "your way is inadequate for my needs"

I see you point...even so is there no validity to my feelings and needs as well? I do respect and appreciate his feelings...very much as a matter-of-fact. The struggle is finding a place we can both be comfortable with. (as a side note I just want to be clear that "too slow = far away" so there is a difference in the amount of intamacy and physical and emotional closeness that each of us is comfortable with / desires at this time).

PUBLIC NOTICE: UDog is awesome! :hug:
 

Scott N Denver

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Apr 25, 2009
Messages
2,898
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
I see you point...even so is there no validity to my feelings and needs as well? I do respect and appreciate his feelings...very much as a matter-of-fact. The struggle is finding a place we can both be comfortable with. (as a side note I just want to be clear that "too slow = far away" so there is a difference in the amount of intamacy and physical and emotional closeness that each of us is comfortable with / desires at this time).

PUBLIC NOTICE: UDog is awesome! :hug:

of course their is validity to your needs and feelingfs. like you said, its all about finding solutions that work for both of you
 

Neutralpov

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Jun 29, 2009
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310
of course their is validity to your needs and feelingfs. like you said, its all about finding solutions that work for both of you

Can we just come up with an answer to this on this thread? That would just solve all this. Thanks bye!


Side note: Seems like ENFJ-INFP is one that both sides want to work generally.
 

Udog

Seriously Delirious
Joined
Aug 2, 2008
Messages
5,290
MBTI Type
INfp
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
There is a book on this topic of ENFJ marriages, (I believe How to Stop Elderly Abuse- it is based on type, don't let the title scare you. It is the precursor to Power Dating Games: What's Important to Know About the Person You'll Marry by Anne Hart) and it says that ENFJ will resent Fi because it withholds affection and we ENFJ's won't admit or ask for it but we in fact do need it.

It's a valid issue. I never intentionally withhold affection, since I find that love and caring are NOT bargaining chips when dealing with someone you are close to. However, even if I don't show it, I'm very vulnerable when I express myself to another person. It makes it challenging for me to make it a habit to be expressive all the time - or to become as good as you ENFJs - who have practiced it all your life.

It takes effort from both people: Effort to express, and effort to remind.

All in all it is good to hear the human side of this, meaning it isn't because people don't care, and I am not stupid for doing what is best for myself. Which is really hard to do when it means hurting someone's feelings. It has really made me take a look at my needs and really view them as worthy, which I forget in my group leader status-no longer.

A surprising side effect is that by learning how to fill your own needs, you'll become better at that ENFJ thing of helping others fill theirs. :)

The struggle is finding a place we can both be comfortable with. (as a side note I just want to be clear that "too slow = far away" so there is a difference in the amount of intamacy and physical and emotional closeness that each of us is comfortable with / desires at this time).

PUBLIC NOTICE: UDog is awesome! :hug:

Aw, thanks! How did you know that I'm susceptible to unbridled flattery? :whistling:

If I oversimplify a bit, I think there are three different potential issues that hold INFPs back from being more expressive. Keep in mind that INFPs are more internalized by nature, though. These are just 3 situations where I find the lack of INFP expression to be a potentially valid issue with the INFP.

1. We don't feel it. Our partner doesn't inspire our emotions. We simply aren't right for each other.

2. We refuse or are too afraid to face certain emotions directly and honestly. INFPs are VERY good at compartmentalizing their emotions, and treating them almost as objects. This one gets complicated quickly, but the sum of it is that the INFP refuses to truly face whatever emotion is blocking them (for whatever reason). In my opinion, this is a bad sign for the friendship/relationship as well, as the INFP is digging in their heels and unable to try and grow beyond the sticking point. They'd rather see the world in their head than the world around them.

3. Don't know how to / don't feel safe / are genuinely not that expressive, despite nothing holding them back. This is the option that holds the best shot, as long as both sides are willing to work at it. The main thing is that the INFP is willing to face whatever holds them back, is willing to learn to be more expressive, and the ENFJ is willing to give back what the INFP needs in turn.

.... I just sort of threw that together. INFPs - if you disagree please feel free to chime in! :)
 

runvardh

にゃん
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
8,541
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
If I oversimplify a bit, I think there are three different potential issues that hold INFPs back from being more expressive. Keep in mind that INFPs are more internalized by nature, though. These are just 3 situations where I find the lack of INFP expression to be a potentially valid issue with the INFP.

1. We don't feel it. Our partner doesn't inspire our emotions. We simply aren't right for each other.

2. We refuse or are too afraid to face certain emotions directly and honestly. INFPs are VERY good at compartmentalizing their emotions, and treating them almost as objects. This one gets complicated quickly, but the sum of it is that the INFP refuses to truly face whatever emotion is blocking them (for whatever reason). In my opinion, this is a bad sign for the friendship/relationship as well, as the INFP is digging in their heels and unable to try and grow beyond the sticking point. They'd rather see the world in their than the world around them.

3. Don't know how to / don't feel safe / are genuinely not that expressive, despite nothing holding them back. This is the option that holds the best shot, as long as both sides are willing to work at it. The main thing is that the INFP is willing to face whatever holds them back, is willing to learn to be more expressive, and the ENFJ is willing to give back when the INFP needs in turn.

.... I just sort of threw that together. INFPs - if you disagree please feel free to chime in! :)

Looks about right, though it's hard to feel safe under the light of a Cepheid variable. This lack of safety also can be doubled when all attempts to bridge the gap are ignored.
 

TheEmeraldCanopy

New member
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Jan 4, 2009
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280
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w3
Something that has been very difficult for me (but I am really trying to push past the internal friction of it) is initiating hangouts with my ENFJ friends. It feels weird and uncomfortable to be the one to suggest things... very vulnerable, very open to rejection. I guess I am afraid of appearing friendless and desperate. :unsure:

But I am glad I am pushing through these risks, even if the end result is a rejection. Sometimes people just clash and aren't meant to be friends I guess.
 

Lily flower

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Jun 28, 2010
Messages
930
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
2
My experience with ENFJ's is that they appear to be close to everyone, because they are so friendly and listen to everyone else's problems, but really they are holding their own personal feelings very close to themselves and have a difficult time sharing something from inside themselves.
 

Neutralpov

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Jun 29, 2009
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yep

Sucks but it is true. But we want that one or two trustworthy life long friends we can share with.

In the mean time helping others really does satisfy by allowing me to be loving while having no one to open up to.

There is a thread on why-I believe we ENFJ's call it an extinction level problem when we let bad people in to the inner chamber.
 

TheEmeraldCanopy

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^^ I'd like to read about it (if you remember the title I can search for it :) ).

What should an INFP keep in mind when trying to connect with and better understand their ENFJ friend? What does the ENFJ need/ want from the friendship?
 

Neutralpov

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Jun 29, 2009
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ENFJ relationships! is the thread, and at page 8 you see the posting by Domino (formerly Pink). That thread mentions it.

what do we want? I think you can search the forum and find postings on that from lots of ENFJ's since we differ (Enneagram numbers range here which makes us different flavors-most being 2 I believe, but I am a 1)

An INFP is what we want if you will be assertive, open, communicate, take action and avoid withdrawing or passivity. Being able to talk deeply and show our true inner person- not the role of social leader- really is what makes me feel best to go out an lead. But if you are flaky, expect us to do all the initiating, vulnerability you won't get through to what can be a great !!! friendship.

Also watch out for the social implications of things (Fe). For example not coming to a birthday party (because we are already deep friends so why does it matter...), not calling back, doing things that don't show support (in actions/public/social expectations sense) to a Fe person is a cause of friction. We look at the actions not just words and what they imply.
 

Esoteric Wench

Professional Trickster
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Dec 20, 2009
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945
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ENFP
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7w8
ENFJ relationships! is the thread, and at page 8 you see the posting by Domino (formerly Pink). That thread mentions it.

what do we want? I think you can search the forum and find postings on that from lots of ENFJ's since we differ (Enneagram numbers range here which makes us different flavors-most being 2 I believe, but I am a 1)

An INFP is what we want if you will be assertive, open, communicate, take action and avoid withdrawing or passivity. Being able to talk deeply and show our true inner person- not the role of social leader- really is what makes me feel best to go out an lead. But if you are flaky, expect us to do all the initiating, vulnerability you won't get through to what can be a great !!! friendship.

Also watch out for the social implications of things (Fe). For example not coming to a birthday party (because we are already deep friends so why does it matter...), not calling back, doing things that don't show support (in actions/public/social expectations sense) to a Fe person is a cause of friction. We look at the actions not just words and what they imply.

I thought what you wrote was very helpful. Because I would very much like to improve my ability to interact with ENFJs.

What I'm getting from you is that adhering to social propriety is important. (Sometimes not ENFP's strong suit.) And, also that respecting the whole Fe thing is a big part of it.

I've only just begun to really understand how profoundly different are Fe and Fi. Can you give me an example of when an Fi person (aka INFP or ENFP) offended your Fe and how you handled it? Also, how you try to accommodate Fi?

PS (Thanks to Fidelia et al. for helping me better understand Fe. I'm trying to put some of these techniques into practice as I write this post.)

PPS (Here's the thread HeatherC alludes to in her post: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-private-forum/16766-enfj-s-relationships.html Thanks, HeatherC! I hadn't seen this thread before. I'll read it presently.)
 

Neutralpov

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Fe is frustrating and poorly understood.

It is not just social propriety, it is the mental understanding of something supportive in a common understanding(public/socially accepting) that is missed by the Fi. Then we view ourselves as unsupported.

And again this is different to degrees with different ENFJ's. For me it comes out in the fact that over time I look at your actions and if they display a lack of support (getting out of you comfort zone) then I take the actions over the deep conversation. I think that is where the INFPs I know and I differ.

Examples: Doing very nice SMALL thoughtful things does not compensate for not initiating
Forgetting birthdays
Not showing up to group activities because I won't be loney I have a million friends
Not showing up to things I host because you don't like a crowd
Saying you will do things with me- plan a hang out and then have other plans we do along the time (dropping off your stuff, mail)

And this is a quick list but the actions show more in the long term to me, which SUCKSSSSSSSS because having a non-judgemental, calming, confidant is really important to me and ENFJ's long for intimacy (most NF's).

So if in doubt communicate to the ENFJ. Somewhere else on TPC there is a quote..sorry I keep the good info pasted in my emails so I can't track it back except by searching the words...is that we are Alpha's and we want another alpha(read-someone as strong as us) which you can be with your actions aligning to what you say you feel! That is all it takes to be a friend with solid character to me.
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
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Apr 23, 2007
Messages
5,514
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1w2
Fe is frustrating and poorly understood.

It is not just social propriety, it is the mental understanding of something supportive in a common understanding(public/socially accepting) that is missed by the Fi. Then we view ourselves as unsupported.

And again this is different to degrees with different ENFJ's. For me it comes out in the fact that over time I look at your actions and if they display a lack of support (getting out of you comfort zone) then I take the actions over the deep conversation. I think that is where the INFPs I know and I differ...

Yes! I feel like people stop their ears when it's repeated over and over again that Fe is not just about social niceties. I think it's the most visible part of Fe and the portion that is most easily imitated and misused, but for me as a Fe user it's not even that high-ranked in terms of importance.

Feeling supported is of great importance. For me, it's about being able to have real talk with people I care about. I can shoot the breeze forever, that's not a problem for me, but when I'm doing that I'm looking at how a person thinks, what they say, what's important to them, how they're respond (to me and otherwise). It's not always pointless activity, it's how I get to know people. If I can't get some kind of repartee going, then I'm just kind of like eh.

...the actions show more in the long term to me, which SUCKSSSSSSSS because having a non-judgemental, calming, confidant is really important to me and ENFJ's long for intimacy (most NF's).

So if in doubt communicate to the ENFJ. Somewhere else on TPC there is a quote..sorry I keep the good info pasted in my emails so I can't track it back except by searching the words...is that we are Alpha's and we want another alpha(read-someone as strong as us) which you can be with your actions aligning to what you say you feel! That is all it takes to be a friend with solid character to me.

Yes, I also agree with that especially the bolded. Heather aren't you an enneagram 1 as well? I think there are some differences in Fe-doms depending on if they're E1 vs E2, etc. I don't feel as nurturing or the need to nurture as E2s might so oftentimes I don't really identify with the self-sacrificing comments. It's really important to me to get someone who pushes back against me (sounds bad but not really). I like people who have very solid cores that aren't full of turmoil and enjoy being in a state of turmoil. So yeah, the whole solid thing is very important.
 

Neutralpov

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Jun 29, 2009
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yep

Yes I am a Enneagram 1. That is why above that I differ because I look at actions (solid-character) over the deep conversation in the decision making-factor. ENFJ's with a 2 wing may be more prone to stick with the friendship where it is about the sharing over the solid character.

One thing I forgot to mention was the reciprocation. My EJ friends get the understanding of a give-and-take relationship very easily with me. The ENP, INP ones seem to find that "consumer" based. Call it what you will when I know we both expect to give it makes for a heccckk of a lot less misunderstandings. I end up keeping those friends who can get the concept even if they are rarely vulnerable or conversationally intimate.

INFPs don't hold your feelings inside, express them or we will not get you. Solves both problems- you feel understood, we feel reciprocated. Win/Win
 
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