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[NF] Real vs. Imagined You

Atomic Fiend

New member
Joined
Nov 16, 2007
Messages
7,275
Nice!

My fantasy version of myself is a ninja who calls upon mystical powers and kung fu master level martial arts skills to vanquish his foes.

We should do battle sometime. :D

I'll have to run it by my political advisers, Mega-Mandela, and Malcolm X-terminate, but maybe we can arrange something
 

Atomic Fiend

New member
Joined
Nov 16, 2007
Messages
7,275
The imagined me is the president of the U.S. and a super-soldier who runs into a battle by and takes on thousands of armed men with a glorified piece of dental floss.

Nice!

My fantasy version of myself is a ninja who calls upon mystical powers and kung fu master level martial arts skills to vanquish his foes.

We should do battle sometime. :D

I'll have to run it by my political advisers, Mega-Mandela, and Malcolm X-terminate, but maybe we can arrange something

Don't forget the venerable Dr. Huey Percy Newton. :)
I say this unnecessary comment fully aware that I have derailed this thread with a comment I thought would be ignored.

I'd watch that fight.
 

GZA

Resident Snot-Nose
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
1,771
MBTI Type
infp
More often than not I have people trying to put me on the pedestal...

Yah, I kind of get that too, although its probably normal, not excessive, stuff from parents, and I don't buy into it. I refuse to wholehearted believe my parents are proud of me for two reasons. 1) I havn't done anything, and 2) the things that do make them happy/proud (golf and school) are two things I do not do well at/in. Then my friend's parents do the same thing, they tell me how great a kid I am, but I don't buy it, I never did anything, and I don't want to be some super person.

I guess you could say that this is something that challenges my view of myself, they are praising me for things I don't value within myself and that I'm not even aware of in my behaviour.

But I'm not sure if that answers very well :p
 
R

RDF

Guest
When it comes to personal growth I do have a coping pattern. First I will resist by adamantly denying there is anything wrong or by saying it isn't a really big deal, then when it becomes clear there is an issue I will avoid it like the plague, and finally when it's clear that it isn't going away and I have good reason to, I will change. But that has very little to do with me being an NF and everything to do with me being lazy and arrogant.

Well said. That describes me perfectly. But like you say, that's more about thoughtlessness or insensitivity and not necessarily about living up to some elevated concept of NFs.

I'll clarify my OP by saying that I'm not referring to being a perfect person or a good person. But I do wonder because if you identify as NF these are traits that supposedly make one an NF (I don't buy it either but whatever). Maybe this is an ENFJ thing and not a general NF thing, but although I realize that I'll never be perfect it doesn't mean I stop trying to perfect myself. I view it as building muscle, they have to tear in order to be strengthened. I'm asking about the tearing part, when you have to confront something that challenges your view of yourself.

It's not about being humble or not having a good self-concept. If being a compassionate person is part of how you self-identify what happens when you find out that you're not really compassionate? If you think you're not racist or homophobic what happens when you realize you that you are? Fill in any thing that makes up your self-concept and then think have you ever had it challenged. What happened if the results were not to your liking? What is your reconciliation process? This can be hypothetical or experiential.

There are facts about yourself that nearly indisputable: your sex or race for example. I'm asking about the "facts" about you that aren't as tangible and yet equally descriptive.

As for particularly NF things, I'll stick to what I said previously.

INFPs in particular are known for exploring both good and evil within themselves. It doesn't trouble me to run up against selfishness, lack of compassion, and even a bit of lust for violence and mayhem within myself. I'm human, and I enjoy exploring the contradictions of the human experience.

I do aspire to be a genuinely nice, understanding guy--nicer than most. That's my first impulse, my home territory, and my natural point of reference. I do it well, and it's a big part of my self-image. But I also know that there are self-interested reasons for acting that way, like wanting to create a higher level of harmony for personal peace of mind, or reaping the benefits of being a good team player. I mainly just see it as playing to my strengths, and I enjoy playing and perfecting that role.

Meanwhile, some environments don't favor or reward "nice guys." If I'm in an environment where my nice guy attitude doesn't buy me what I want but rather where other behaviors are rewarded, then I can be as selfish and ornery as anyone else. In such cases, I can play the tough guy and can even enjoy indulging that side of myself.

As Somerset Maugham said, "You can't learn too soon that the most useful thing about a principle is that it can always be sacrificed to expediency." :)
 

alcea rosea

New member
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
3,658
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ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
How often do you get knocked off your NF "I'm a good person" OR "I'm a caring, compassionate, giving, benevolent etc. etc.," pedestal? How far is the fall to the ground?

Never thought about this. :thinking:

How do you react when you're in a situation that forces you to confront aspects of yourself that contradict your idea(ls) of who you are and who you really are?

I am confused and then leave it alone. I'm P and ok when things are not settled. ;) I have many things that contradict and I just let them be. Maybe someday they will be all resolved. If they don't, it really doesn't matter. I'll survive. :)
 

heart

heart on fire
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
8,456
How often do you get knocked off your NF "I'm a good person" OR "I'm a caring, compassionate, giving, benevolent etc. etc.," pedestal? How far is the fall to the ground?

How do you react when you're in a situation that forces you to confront aspects of yourself that contradict your idea(ls) of who you are and who you really are?


I have never really seen myself as especially "good person". I can be aloof and cold, I can be overly opinonated about something that I think is important and too keen on pressing my point. I am always falling short of my internal ideas of how I should be. I am human.

I am fascinated with duality in human nature and human hypocrisy and finding it in myself has no less fascination for me even when it hurts to see it.

I know an INFJ who finds the idea of not being a "nice person" something they have diffculty facing when it happens to them. Their self image is extremely tied to being seen as a nice person.
 

CzeCze

RETIRED
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
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GONE
How often do you get knocked off your NF "I'm a good person" OR "I'm a caring, compassionate, giving, benevolent etc. etc.," pedestal? How far is the fall to the ground?

How do you react when you're in a situation that forces you to confront aspects of yourself that contradict your idea(ls) of who you are and who you really are?

My ideal version of myself actually is NOT someone who is very nice or cuddly or compassionate or giving.

My ideal version of myself is a terror inducing no-nonsense lady who gets her way and doesn't apologize.

So, yes, my ideal version of myself does often fall short of reality. :yes:

But as far as the contradicting ideals yes, when those situations happen and I basically was not the 'best person I could be' I do feel bad. But it's just a welcome spotlight on a weakness I was not aware of before. It makes me think who do I want to be and how would that person have reacted to that same situation and be in the world in general? I work on it.

In my present self, I don't ignore problems. I at least acknowledge them and process them and if I hit a wall I leave it alone to ruminate and revisit it in the near future. I would like to grow as much as possible so I can be the person I feel I was meant to be.
 

tovlo

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Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
248
MBTI Type
INFJ
Fill in any thing that makes up your self-concept and then think have you ever had it challenged. What happened if the results were not to your liking? What is your reconciliation process? This can be hypothetical or experiential.

My reconciliation process has been very much a process of good/bad judgement. Results to my liking buoyed me up and fed my self-confidence, giving me a sense of empowerment in life. Results not to my liking would often be accepted as true with little questioning and begin to infect every other aspect of my self-concept. If I could be unaware of how unacceptable I was in one challenged area, it was possible I could be equally unaware of how unacceptable I was in every other area. In an effort not to be unsettled by a surprise external challenge to my self-concept, I would regularly attempt to challenge myself first internally with as many possible negative self-concept truths as I could imagine. I generally found myself to be capable of the crime.

It is not perhaps a self-affirming way to move through life, but I continued this behavior because when my self-concept expectations were lowest they felt the least penetrable and when they were more inflated my self-concept felt most vulnerable.

However I've been trying to adopt a different, very aspirational, reconciliation process:

I'm trying to abandon the idea of good and bad. My expression of self just is. I may value certain things and I may strive to live in a way that matches my values, but not doing so is not a source of judgement. If I become aware of my experience not matching what I value, I try to simply accept my experience for what it is in the moment, re-evaluate and re-orient to what I value, and then continue to experience and accept that experience. I try to just be, without judgement and sometimes even without description.
 

Wandering

Highly Hollow
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Dec 24, 2007
Messages
873
MBTI Type
INFJ
If being a compassionate person is part of how you self-identify what happens when you find out that you're not really compassionate? If you think you're not racist or homophobic what happens when you realize you that you are? Fill in any thing that makes up your self-concept and then think have you ever had it challenged. What happened if the results were not to your liking? What is your reconciliation process? This can be hypothetical or experiential.
Does it mean that something is wrong with me if I can't think of anything I identify with :huh: ??
 

CzeCze

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I'm trying to abandon the idea of good and bad. My expression of self just is. I may value certain things and I may strive to live in a way that matches my values, but not doing so is not a source of judgement. If I become aware of my experience not matching what I value, I try to simply accept my experience for what it is in the moment, re-evaluate and re-orient to what I value, and then continue to experience and accept that experience. I try to just be, without judgement and sometimes even without description.

Your approach is so simple it's revolutionary! :)

I'm going to try this. Instead of biting my tongue or going out of my way to be nice or fit any kind of mental image of 'good' or 'me' and double check myself mentally to this image like I do every day, I'll just do whatever my impulses tell me to and see where that leads me. Superficial imposed standards be damned.

Wow, it'll be so nice to actually see who I really am.

:violin:

I shall report back...
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
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Apr 23, 2007
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However I've been trying to adopt a different, very aspirational, reconciliation process:

I'm trying to abandon the idea of good and bad. My expression of self just is. I may value certain things and I may strive to live in a way that matches my values, but not doing so is not a source of judgement. If I become aware of my experience not matching what I value, I try to simply accept my experience for what it is in the moment, re-evaluate and re-orient to what I value, and then continue to experience and accept that experience. I try to just be, without judgement and sometimes even without description.

*nods* I have recently started trying this approach. An attempt to redefine all judgment related words to be both good and bad. Then to see all of it as a part of me.

Cze, try reading "The Dark Side of the Light Chaser" if you have the time.
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
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Does it mean that something is wrong with me if I can't think of anything I identify with :huh: ??

No...but I'd find it hard to believe there are few things that you identify with/as, which creates your self-concept.
 

disregard

mrs
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
7,826
MBTI Type
INFP
I am very in tune with my faults, and strive to improve them. I don't have an inflated vision of myself, but I am an enthusiastic optimist.. or so I am told. When I discover something distasteful about myself, I am not so much getting knocked off my pedestal, but I explore the whys and the whats of this fault. And in reference to the "I'm caring, I'm compassionate" part.. I actually have to be convinced by my closest friends that I am caring, compassionate, sympathetic, etc when I claim not to be. I think it is the SJ that causes one to think they are something they are not. It keeps them sane.
 

heart

heart on fire
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
8,456
I'm trying to abandon the idea of good and bad. My expression of self just is. I may value certain things and I may strive to live in a way that matches my values, but not doing so is not a source of judgement. If I become aware of my experience not matching what I value, I try to simply accept my experience for what it is in the moment, re-evaluate and re-orient to what I value, and then continue to experience and accept that experience. I try to just be, without judgement and sometimes even without description.

The only reason I reply here is to constrast my own view as a INFP, whether or not my view is typical for an INFP to hold, that I don't know. I am really not trying to debate as much as contrast how another NF feels on this type of issue.

There is something in this idea above that I could never apply to myself, something in the idea of abandoning the judgment of good or bad, right or wrong. Maybe it is because I see life as the result of opposite forces coming together. This is also why I find new age philosophies so disquieting. Without being able to use internal judgment to delinate clearly between what is beneficial and what is not, how could I make clear enough decisions in how I move through life. My internal judgment of what is right and wrong is the only sure foundation I have ever felt in world that is very unsure. Without that foundation, life would be scary.

I am wondering if this is something often felt by INFP, or just my own particular thing?

Below is an a example of the kind of thinking that I find very compelling, it speaks to something I have always felt inside was right:

Such is the very death of the created being. We die to the extent that we fail to discriminate. For this reason the natural impulse of the created being is directed toward differentiation and toward the struggle against the ancient, pernicious state of sameness. The natural tendency is called Principium Individuationis (Principle of Individuation).

This principle is indeed the essence of every created being. From these things you may readily recognize why the undifferentiated principle and lack of discrimination are all a great danger to created beings. For this reason we must be able to distinguish the qualities of the Pleroma. Its qualities are the PAIRS OF OPPOSITES, such as:



the effective and the ineffective

fullness and emptiness

the living and the dead

light and dark

hot and cold

energy and matter

time and space

good and evil

the beautiful and the ugly

the one and the many

and so forth.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In this world, man is Abraxas, who gives birth to and devours his own world.

The star is man’s God and goal.

It is his guiding divinity; in it man finds repose.

To it goes the long journey of the soul after death; in it shine all things which otherwise might keep man from the greater world with the brilliance of a great light.



To this One, man ought to pray.

Such a prayer increases the light of the star.

Such a prayer builds a bridge over death.

It increases the light of the microcosm; when the outer world grows cold, this star still shines.



There is nothing that can separate man from his own God, if man can only turn his gaze away from the fiery spectacle of Abraxas.




Carl Jung
Seven Sermons to the Dead

written between December 15, 1916 and February 16, 1917 under the pseudonym "Basilides of Alexandria"
 

anii

homo-loving sonovagun
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
901
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infp
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Cze, try reading "The Dark Side of the Light Chaser" if you have the time.

This is an excellent book and I recommend it too. That's why I said in my blog I'm currently *embracing my shadow*. In reading it (and from other sources) I learned that when I sit with the 'unacceptable', hidden, or shadow parts of myself... almost as if by magic they become integrated and at the same time lose their hold on me. Then they stop becoming unconscious, kneejerk reactions and start to become matters of choice.
 

Wandering

Highly Hollow
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
873
MBTI Type
INFJ
No...but I'd find it hard to believe there are few things that you identify with/as, which creates your self-concept.
I know, it sounds crazy :huh:

But honestly, the only thing I can think of that I REALLY identify as, is "human being". I'm human. With all the good and bad that this implies. I have an infinite potential for goodness on one hand, and an infinite potential for evil on the other. And I accept that. It doesn't bother me anymore. It used to. I used to berate myself for being anything less than perfect, but that was a long time ago, back when I was a kid, and it led me straight to depression, so that's not a very useful avenue of thinking in my case. During my depression, of course, I went completely the other way, believing that I was all bad and that nothing good could come out of me. And now that I'm steadily coming out of it, I'm just accepting both sides of me. I can do lots of good even though I don't do all the good I could do. And I can do lots of bad though again I don't do anywhere as much bad as I could do. I strive to do as much good and as little bad as possible, but I don't condemn myself anymore when I fail to be perfectly good at all times and in all circumstances, or when I give in to my dark side episodically. I just remind myself that I am HUMAN. I try and correct the consequences of any mistake I make, I try and learn any possible lesson from them, and hop! I jump back into life.
 

tovlo

New member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
248
MBTI Type
INFJ
Your approach is so simple it's revolutionary! :)

I'm going to try this. Instead of biting my tongue or going out of my way to be nice or fit any kind of mental image of 'good' or 'me' and double check myself mentally to this image like I do every day, I'll just do whatever my impulses tell me to and see where that leads me. Superficial imposed standards be damned.

Wow, it'll be so nice to actually see who I really am.

:violin:

I shall report back...

I'm glad it appeals to you, CzeCze. A variety of folks I consider very wise have been guiding me toward this approach for a while. I've been finding it very effective for me when I have the presence of mind to engage in it.

I would be love to hear how your attempts with it are going.
 
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