• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[MBTI General] Warnings to the new Messiahs

ocean

New member
Joined
Jun 26, 2010
Messages
89
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
67sx
He whosoever harbors a spark of divinity in his core, manifesting itself through sporadic but driven action, piercing through the dense and dark mediocrity of humankind's self flattery and deception, shall do good to reflect, and ponder.

That not one word was courageously spoken in times past that challenged the established social order and did not consequently elicit the madden blabber and pestiferous indignation of the lower layers of society.

For all human interaction is ultimately a game of self defense, and the prevailing strategy that of rooking one's position within the safe harbor of consensus, and any violation of it is perceived as an existential threat to the social organism itself.

He whosoever believes, firmly in his heart, to hold a gem of truth, so high above him that he is to be the carrier, not the originator, of its message and value, will do good to remember, that in bestowing this precious and rare gift upon the bickering fools, the savage and the uneducated, the hedonists and oblivious, fierce resentment will be the only reward.

For in order to bestow this gift he will have to implicitly elevate himself from a position of supposed equality to his peers to an elevated "plateau of superiority", from which to hand "down" this knowledge, and down is the only direction it will appear to move towards, if high is the message revealed in it.

The cruficixion of Jesus of Nazareth is a metaphor for the resentment of humankind towards the bringer of a higher moral framework.

Exposure to such a framework will be uncomfortable to most, as it will coerce them to face the inadequacy and pettiness of their own goals and minds - for this they will fight fiercely, not against the idea but against its carrier. They will fight to punish him, for having brought an uncomfortable truth. For indirectly diminishing their private and public worth.

And lastly, because whilst they may be used to seeing someone be richer, more powerful, happier or more serene, they just cannot accept the final blow dealt to their ego by seeing someone who, under the same tragic existential conditions, has exceeded them in compassion and good character.

For this reason one's public image is to be managed meticulously, and one's facade of humility must be painstakingly crafted and must permeate all one does or says.

A bringer of a higher moral message must be humble. A poorest of the poor. Or, one who inflicts poverty voluntarily onto himself.

Members of the lower layers of society must always find comfort in the fact that they are in some way better off than such a person, that they are respected, that his demeanor is deferential to them, and that they are in no way threatened by his existence.

Persuading them of this ought to be simple, for simple are their minds and motivations and great are their vanity and their desire for flattery.
 

angell_m

Permabanned
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
818
MBTI Type
IxFx
Enneagram
5w4
*puts cigarette in mouth*
*lights cigarette*
*leaves thread*
*conflict avoided*
 
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Messages
516
MBTI Type
Mann
I have been searching for quite some time for an answer. And you have provided it. Thank you.
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
this is interesting. what's the purpose?

it seems a little bit tautological, but certainly well-written.
 

vince

New member
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
320
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
6w
Nice text. Really.
It would however be more powerful if there was less Von Dutch in your avatar.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I don't think that moral enlightenment comes through viewing oneself as morally superior, wearing a fake cloth of humility, and reinforcing that the masses are inherently stupid... regardless of which of those things might actually be true.

It's a precarious perspective of oneself to embrace, it usually just leads to self-taint.
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
I ... approach you with caution, ocean. Honestly, I still am not sure what to make of you.

Allow me to respond to your thoughts:

I agree that most people can accept and coexist with someone who is more powerful, richer, smarter or more attractive than they are. But very, very few are willing to accept anyone who dares to reveal a core of moral superiority. Most human reactions will be to crush such expressions.

And I agree any message that potentially challenges the moral insipidity of the world needs to be delivered from the ground up, not the top down. However, it would need to come from a position of real humility. The carrier of such a truth would hopefully have the moral fibre to realize they are merely a messenger and thus much, much smaller than the totality of that truth. Without a genuine humility, rather than a cloak of false modesty where the ego becomes consumed with the adoration of those who would worship the deliverer of such a truth, the message itself would be tainted and thus the purity of that essence lost.

What human could attain such perfection? Jesus after all, had to be constructed as god, being a man yet a god, in order for that message to be received and proliferated.

Do you have a message ocean? What drives you?

Persuading them of this ought to be simple, for simple are their minds and motivations and great are their vanity and their desire for flattery.

When one assumes any position of superiority it becomes nearly impossible to anymore regard anyone as a true equal. This is the great deception. It is why Siddartha left his palace and wandered the world. Not because he wanted to live as a commoner. But because he needed the world to erase his inclinations to superiority. Once he was able to transcend that, a glimpse of truth was revealed.

In expression of one's daily living, one must seek to always remember that life is about context and everyone has their own truth, albeit as different and flawed as your own, in some way.
 

ocean

New member
Joined
Jun 26, 2010
Messages
89
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
67sx
I don't think that moral enlightenment comes through viewing oneself as morally superior, wearing a fake cloth of humility, and reinforcing that the masses are inherently stupid... regardless of which of those things might actually be true.

It's a precarious perspective of oneself to embrace, it usually just leads to self-taint.

And you came all the way to this side of the electric fence to plant this straw man?
 

ocean

New member
Joined
Jun 26, 2010
Messages
89
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
67sx
I'm writing to PeaceBaby because she possesses the rare quality of being able to withhold judgment until further data can be obtained.

The kind of messiah you describe would not be able to promote social change.

My message doesn't count as much as the meta-message which is, that at least *some* people should have a message. The main problem is not disagreement on the message. It's disagreement on the need to have one. It's the generalized decay of the moral framework of society, after which the financial framework follows.

I know what my message is. I want to ask others, do YOU have a message?

> wanted to live as a commoner. But because he needed the world to erase
> his inclinations to superiority. Once he was able to transcend that, a
> glimpse of truth was revealed.

Do you think great men walk amongst commoners without realizing they belong to a special place in history? Do you think their own virtue goes unrecognized to their own eyes? Do you think that Einstein was smart enough to figure out relativity but not smart enough to realize he was smarter than everyone he met? That Tchaikovsky was sufficiently attuned to his feelings to so precisely transcribe them into musical notation and yet unaffected by the spiritual bankruptcy of those he met? Did Alexander the Great enter a battle thinking his opponent equal or superior to him strategically?

Humbleness is a convenient and sometimes necessary facade. What great men really think when they don't need to lie to you can be read in the works of Schopenhauer.

>In expression of one's daily living, one must seek to always remember that
>life is about context and everyone has their own truth, albeit as different
>and flawed as your own, in some way.

By this logic there is no good or evil. There is no message. This is the anti-message, something Satan would use to persuade you to commit the most impure acts :)
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
Your writing stirs me to respond, and encouraging me to walk here with you is a rare thing, as this can be a minefield issue. Although you no doubt can sense I am holding back because I am still not convinced of the purity of your intentions. :)

Speaking on matters moral is a dangerous play. All of the people you mention indeed may have known they were great men. And may have used the veneer of humble interaction in order to smooth their way through the social arenas of their time. None of them were however, messianic.

Are you trying to induce those who might feel a moral calling - or feel a knowing that they possess a moral superiority, to stand up and declare?

Or are you thinking more of one's acts in the world being an example to that moral core? And thus keeping the motivation, the moral core, behind those acts your personal and private source of both direction and strength? But making sure it remains protected and (for better or worse) unchallenged?

How does one determine what is the correct moral framework to possess? Although many qualities reflecting it have been distilled over time, there is no singular agreement, no mathematical proof that can dispel doubt or verify the purity of that liquor.

Edit: and I might add, great acts of atrocity have been committed under such illusions.
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
By this logic there is no good or evil. There is no message. This is the anti-message, something Satan would use to persuade you to commit the most impure acts :)

Are you stating a belief in absolute truth?
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I'm writing to PeaceBaby because she possesses the rare quality of being able to withhold judgment until further data can be obtained.

.... you're cute. :)

And you came all the way to this side of the electric fence to plant this straw man?

You can't recognize my prods as just a means to provoke a reaction, to gage where you're coming from? I wanted to see what you would do with it.

At this point, I've learned:
1. You think your insights are far more unique than they really are.
2. You're not open to engaging new points of view -- you're just here to dazzle people with your "insights," acquire some attention for yourself, and feel good by twisting around and dismissing alternate views.

I do seriously engage people who I sense want to communicate and work together to explore a topic, but I'm thinking here it's not worth the investment.
 

stringstheory

THIS bitch
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
Messages
923
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
1
Are you stating a belief in absolute truth?

actually i thought he was saying the complete opposite..that the anti-message would be that there IS absolute truth (good and evil). i think this is the warning to future Messiahs. that's how I see it, maybe because that's what i think so that how i'm reading it :alttongue:
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
For in order to bestow this gift he will have to implicitly elevate himself from a position of supposed equality to his peers to an elevated "plateau of superiority", from which to hand "down" this knowledge, and down is the only direction it will appear to move towards, if high is the message revealed in it.
The assumption that there can be relative worth requires a belief that individuals have more control than they likely have. Each person is a snapshot of humanity from a particular vantage point. If your vantage point is elevated and bestowing knowledge from a superior position, then that is not "you" but simply what humanity looks like when subjected to all the parameters that are used to define you. When humanity is subjected to another set of experiences and genetics, it can be a foolish person, or someone cruel.

Our best qualities are given to us either through nature or nurture. We appear to make choices, but if the is any freedom or ownership of those choices, it likely occurs within a narrow range, if at all. If you have superior enlightenment to hand down to fools, then it is not your own. It is the result of what humanity naturally becomes when handed the set of parameters that went into building who you are. There is no "handing down" when one comes to a complete realization of this.
 

slowriot

He who laughs
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
1,314
Enneagram
5w4
He whosoever harbors a spark of divinity in his core, manifesting itself through sporadic but driven action, piercing through the dense and dark mediocrity of humankind's self flattery and deception, shall do good to reflect, and ponder.

That not one word was courageously spoken in times past that challenged the established social order and did not consequently elicit the madden blabber and pestiferous indignation of the lower layers of society.

For all human interaction is ultimately a game of self defense, and the prevailing strategy that of rooking one's position within the safe harbor of consensus, and any violation of it is perceived as an existential threat to the social organism itself.

He whosoever believes, firmly in his heart, to hold a gem of truth, so high above him that he is to be the carrier, not the originator, of its message and value, will do good to remember, that in bestowing this precious and rare gift upon the bickering fools, the savage and the uneducated, the hedonists and oblivious, fierce resentment will be the only reward.

For in order to bestow this gift he will have to implicitly elevate himself from a position of supposed equality to his peers to an elevated "plateau of superiority", from which to hand "down" this knowledge, and down is the only direction it will appear to move towards, if high is the message revealed in it.

The cruficixion of Jesus of Nazareth is a metaphor for the resentment of humankind towards the bringer of a higher moral framework.

Exposure to such a framework will be uncomfortable to most, as it will coerce them to face the inadequacy and pettiness of their own goals and minds - for this they will fight fiercely, not against the idea but against its carrier. They will fight to punish him, for having brought an uncomfortable truth. For indirectly diminishing their private and public worth.

And lastly, because whilst they may be used to seeing someone be richer, more powerful, happier or more serene, they just cannot accept the final blow dealt to their ego by seeing someone who, under the same tragic existential conditions, has exceeded them in compassion and good character.

For this reason one's public image is to be managed meticulously, and one's facade of humility must be painstakingly crafted and must permeate all one does or says.

A bringer of a higher moral message must be humble. A poorest of the poor. Or, one who inflicts poverty voluntarily onto himself.

Members of the lower layers of society must always find comfort in the fact that they are in some way better off than such a person, that they are respected, that his demeanor is deferential to them, and that they are in no way threatened by his existence.

Persuading them of this ought to be simple, for simple are their minds and motivations and great are their vanity and their desire for flattery.

Jesus of Nazareth was exactly what you said but got rejected because of status within the Jewish community. They saw his poor upbringing and made it into a joke.

The word "messiahs" are usually understood in the term of bringing solitude and change to those that are in most dire needs of it though, the masses. So therefore most "messiahs" will bring the change best if those he are adressing can feel equal to this person. While still seeing him as someone that is profound.

.... you're cute. :)



You can't recognize my prods as just a means to provoke a reaction, to gage where you're coming from? I wanted to see what you would do with it.

At this point, I've learned:
1. You think your insights are far more unique than they really are.
2. You're not open to engaging new points of view -- you're just here to dazzle people with your "insights," acquire some attention for yourself, and feel good by twisting around and dismissing alternate views.

I do seriously engage people who I sense want to communicate and work together to explore a topic, but I'm thinking here it's not worth the investment.

Totally agreed
 

ocean

New member
Joined
Jun 26, 2010
Messages
89
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
67sx
Are you stating a belief in absolute truth?

Truth is a human construct. Every person needs to have a tentative, always improving truth and they are entitled to call it absolute, provided they are willing to challenge it at times. What I see instead is moral atrophy, and people throwing out all their experiences at the first sign of conflict or a conflicting coherent system. We should be makers of meaning, not destroyers.
 
Top