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[NF] Radical Evil in human nature?

SolitaryWalker

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Where on earth do you get this unrealistic notions that we pretend radical evil does not exists? Some of us may believe in "naive fairytale" goodness, and some of us may not. But I think the key point you missed is that life isn't so definitively black and white. Evil intent exists, so does good intent... however extreme cases are rare incidents indeed. Most people have both the desire to be selfish and giving/caring. I don't see why you have to isolate good to be absolute pure altruism. Because if you do so, radical evil can only be about inflicting harm on other people at the cost personal expense without even gaining emotional satisfaction... As Cafe mentioned such definitions are way too restricting. The probability of either event is so low that you might as well say it is highly unlikely one of us will encounter it. So we work more or less with people who have both good and evil intents with them. Kind of like the interpretation behind chinese "ying yang"... "Within all good there is evil and within all evil there is good." If it suits us to value the positive side of people more than the negative then it is our right. We acknowledge the existence of both, but we perfer to focus more on one than the other. Besides... what's so bad in deriving personal pleasures in helping others? Intents that benefit self need not always harm others. If both sides gain something out of the interaction... why not have it? It's still "good" in my mind.


Does that help explain why life isn't an absurd tregedy? Life is only a tregedy if you insists radical evil is out to get you. Of course that is not the case.


Does all of this mean that you are now willing to admit that the world would have been a much better place if the human race never existed at all?
 

nightning

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Does all of this mean that you are now willing to admit that the world would have been a much better place if the human race never existed at all?

No shirt off my back if we don't exist! Think about it... we're the most damaging species to ever existed on this planet (If the history of Earth based on soil layers are accurate). Evolution is not a goal directed process... people aren't perfect. If we happen to be a "mistake" where replacement by another species is more beneficial for keeping this planet habitable, who cares? The past is irrelevent... for good or bad, we "happened". So let's just make the best of this situation okay?
 

SolitaryWalker

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No shirt off my back if we don't exist! Think about it... we're the most damaging species to ever existed on this planet (If the history of Earth based on soil layers are accurate). Evolution is not a goal directed process... people aren't perfect. If we happen to be a "mistake" where replacement by another species is more beneficial for keeping this planet habitable, who cares? The past is irrelevent... for good or bad, we "happened". So let's just make the best of this situation okay?

The harder we try to make the best of the situation the worse it actually gets.
 

SolitaryWalker

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How so? Please clarify.


We rarely wish to make the world a better place. Usually when we say that thsi is what we want to do, it is just a cover up for more of our selfish motives. People shouldnt be allowed to 'try to make the world a better place' the reality of it is that they are using the resources that they received for their personal benefit. Some are just better at hiding this than others. We are not capable of anything other than serving our own ends.
 

cafe

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I would selfishly like my grandchildren to have a nice, clean, beautiful planet to live on with sustainable energy and diverse flora and fauna.
 

SolitaryWalker

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I would selfishly like my grandchildren to have a nice, clean, beautiful planet to live on with sustainable energy and diverse flora and fauna.


If you had a choice...



I would selfishly like my grandchildren to have a nice, clean, beautiful planet to live on with sustainable energy and diverse flora and fauna.

Guarantee for this to happen within a 100 years... not to just your grandchildren... but to everybody... to bring paradise to Earth. by 2100.. at the expense of you dying right this moment. Would you accept this?
 

cafe

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If you had a choice...





Guarantee for this to happen within a 100 years... not to just your grandchildren... but to everybody... to bring paradise to Earth. by 2100.. at the expense of you dying right this moment. Would you accept this?
No child would ever go to bed hungry again or die pooping their guts out from dirty water again. Where do I sign?
 

SolitaryWalker

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No child would ever go to bed hungry again or die pooping their guts out from dirty water again. Where do I sign?

Quite noble... you sure you'd manage to do this? Of course your mind will want for this. But human nature is too rotten to let you carry through with that. It is our vile nature that makes decisions not our intellect. Our intellect is slave to our base nature.
 

cafe

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Quite noble... you sure you'd manage to do this? Of course your mind will want for this. But human nature is too rotten to let you carry through with that. It is our vile nature that makes decisions not our intellect. Our intellect is slave to our base nature.
I would not sacrifice one of my own children, but if I knew my children would be taken care of, then I don't think it would be that be that big a deal. People willingly die for causes and always have.

If it was going to be a very painful death, I might not be able to go through with it, but if it was going to be quick and painless, meh.
 

SolitaryWalker

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I would not sacrifice one of my own children, but if I knew my children would be taken care of, then I don't think it would be that be that big a deal. People willingly die for causes and always have.

If it was going to be a very painful death, I might not be able to go through with it, but if it was going to be quick and painless, meh.

Would you take ALL the torture of the world on yourself if this led to paradise on Earth. Perform an eternal self-abnegation. Would you be willing to suffer forever for the cause?
 

nightning

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We rarely wish to make the world a better place. Usually when we say that thsi is what we want to do, it is just a cover up for more of our selfish motives. People shouldnt be allowed to 'try to make the world a better place' the reality of it is that they are using the resources that they received for their personal benefit. Some are just better at hiding this than others. We are not capable of anything other than serving our own ends.

Haha better place... Yes I agree we all have innate tendencies to make the world a better place... for ourselves as individuals, not as a group. However because we have a rational mind, we can see that actions that get us short-term benefits can be harmful in the long-run... therefore actions of "making the world a better place" eg be less wasteful, consume less, preserve the environment and our natural resources will benefit us in the long-run. Such is a case where we can hit two birds with one stone... benefit the environment and benefit us... so who cares if it stems from selfish intentions?
 

cafe

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Would you take ALL the torture of the world on yourself if this led to paradise on Earth. Perform an eternal self-abnegation. Would you be willing to suffer forever for the cause?
No, I don't believe that I would. I'm not that good. Even Jesus didn't have to do that.
 

SolitaryWalker

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No, I don't believe that I would. I'm not that good. Even Jesus didn't have to do that.

In that case his redemption was perhaps not enough? Unless he really believed that he was taking on all the suffering on him.


And there is your answer that outlines the problem of evil in connection to selfishness. That you care much more for your children than about the world. Because they are a continuation of your inner being.
 

nightning

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Would you take ALL the torture of the world on yourself if this led to paradise on Earth. Perform an eternal self-abnegation. Would you be willing to suffer forever for the cause?

That's an unfeasible task... nobody lives forever... so pick something more reasonable.

As to your first question... if that can happen I am willing to give up my life... But I don't think you've realized the following... giving up my life will be a selfish action. According to the biological perspective, the goal of living things is the propagate our genetic material... So as long as I have decendents, or that my relatives all survive and can reproduce, I gain rather than lose if I give up my life now. For I will die anyways... why not die now and ensure the survival of my genes?
 

cafe

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In that case his redemption was perhaps not enough? Unless he really believed that he was taking on all the suffering on him.
He took all of it on and he knew it, but it was not and was not intended to be forever.
 

cafe

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And there is your answer that outlines the problem of evil in connection to selfishness. That you care much more for your children than about the world. Because they are a continuation of your inner being.
Yes, and I gave you that one. I love them and I want them to survive and do well, but that was in my first post on the environmental thing, correct? I referred to the world I wanted for my own grandchildren.
 

SolitaryWalker

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That's an unfeasible task... nobody lives forever... so pick something more reasonable.

As to your first question... if that can happen I am willing to give up my life... But I don't think you've realized the following... giving up my life will be a selfish action. According to the biological perspective, the goal of living things is the propagate our genetic material... So as long as I have decendents, or that my relatives all survive and can reproduce, I gain rather than lose if I give up my life now. For I will die anyways... why not die now and ensure the survival of my genes?

This is the point. Unless you harbor no selfish interests, you're not fit to be the Messiah.

If Jesus really was the savior he must not have been looking forward to how he is going to go to heaven.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Yes, and I gave you that one. I love them and I want them to survive and do well, but that was in my first post on the environmental thing, correct? I referred to the world I wanted for my own grandchildren.

Exactly! What good is making the world a better place if it cant be enjoyed by your or by your children! No really! Thats your problem of evil in a nutshell. Cant make a better place, may as well go off like Milton's charismatic Satan corrupting it!

Hey cant become famous for being magnanimous, might as well become notorious! Anything just anything so long as you or your children are content in the long run! And you are not being sefless when you sacrifice your immediate self for your children because they are you, a continuation of your inner being.
 

cafe

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Exactly! What good is making the world a better place if it cant be enjoyed by your or by your children! No really! Thats your problem of evil in a nutshell. Cant make a better place, may as well go off like Milton's charismatic Satan corrupting it!

Hey cant become famous for being magnanimous, might as well become notorious! Anything just anything so long as you or your children are content in the long run! And you are not being sefless when you sacrifice your immediate self for your children because they are you, a continuation of your inner being.
I never said it was selfless. I said specifically that it was selfish. But that does not mean that it cannot result in real good, both to my offspring and to others.
 
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