[NF] When your friends are unfaithful

[Moiety]

I was this close to tell I was disappointed in my friend. I just said matter of factly "I never expected something like that from you". No expression on my face, and talking while walking.

Morally-Fi I guess-I would feel the hurt and be offput by the person but would tend to reserve judgment. I do not feel comfortable applying my moral code to others.

What do you mean by apply? This is not about formally cutting relations with this person. How else am I to like someone if not applying my judgement to them? Why do people give such a negative connotation to the word judging? There are all kinds of judging. Without judging you can't tell good from bad, not even for yourself.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

It would be troubling to me if I knew and interacted with both members of the couple and knew about the cheating. I think I would distance myself because of that complication.

For myself a question like this requires a great deal of knowledge about the circumstances to know how I would react. At this point in life I reserve one level of judgment towards any intimate relationship that is not mine. This includes family members or close friends and their partners. I have felt demoralized by people who have rigid beliefs about staying with someone regardless of how much pain they cause them.

If it was the basic stupid, selfish cheating, I think it would be disappointing to hear about it. It causes pain to be close to someone and see them make a hurtful choice, but it is also painful when people judge and punish so quickly which is also a prevalent human problem.

Distance helps to regain perspective after any shock.

What do you mean by apply? This is not about formally cutting relations with this person. How else am I to like someone if not applying my judgement to them? Why do people give such a negative connotation to the word judging? There are all kinds of judging. Without judging you can't tell good from bad, not even for yourself.

This was directed at someone else, but there is a way to understand and define without thinking "bad" or "good". One can observe and learn about cause-and-effects. When a tree branch is pulled off a process begins and it withers, or when it rains another process makes a flower grow. Is one "good" and the other "bad"? That same rain might flood a mousehole killing baby mice and the treebranch falls to the forest floor and provide nutrients for its neighboring tree to grow.

Human relationships are like that. This person hurts me in one way, and there is an initial cause of pain, but also peripheral advantages. Everything is intertwined, interacting, and with many repercussions.

 

[mmhmm]

I was this close to tell I was disappointed in my friend. I just said matter of factly "I never expected something like that from you". No expression on my face, and talking while walking.

what stopped you from saying that you were disappointed?
or what you said was enough to convey your disappointment?

 

[Totenkindly]

I don't like feeling mad. It would be like acknowledging that my friend somehow betrayed me when this is not about me.

Actually... isn't it about you?

It's not really about her at this point, it's about how you feel about her and your investment in the friendship, isn't it? Because you can't deal with what she has done?

You're not really focused on external things like helping her SO or helping her figure out what comes next pragmatically, you are focused mainly on your own internal feelings about the situation. That is what you are absorbed in.

It took me a long time to accept that it was okay for me to have a feeling reaction to someone's behavior. Right or wrong, a feeling is a feeling. I kept trying to dismiss, downplay, or bury them... and it just made me unhappy and got in the way of me maintaining my relationships. It is pretty liberating to be able to say, "Man, I am committed to this person as my friend... but she really upset me with what she did, and I'm not sure how to work through it. I want to love her and be her friend, but emotionally I'm just not even feeling it. What next?"

Like I said above, you seem to be primarily wrestling over your own internal feelings right now. If you don't accept how you feel, you can't get to the next step. Do you think you might feel worse about yourself if you acknowledge how you feel... as if you're a bad person too for feeling negatively about your friend?

No, I'm like that too. No, it's not that I don't believe my friend's truths anymore, but I don't know how much I can draw from my friend's opinions on matters we always discussed.

That sounds legitimate... or at least, you have to wonder in the future whether or not she can walk the walk that she talks about, and how committed she truly is to it.

I guess I would feel sort of abandoned and alone if I had felt like I was in solidarity with a friend like that... and then found out they weren't walking the walk with me.

Maybe it's my way of saying "people are human" and confirming I'm really one weird cookie. It's also because I don't want to give people the satisfaction to think I'm disappointed with them. And it's also my propensity for playing the devil's advocate. I mean, I still talked with my friend the whole night about this without ever being anything but completely logical.

I know I've talked to people before, even people who were not my friends and did not particularly like (a few even within the last few days, doh!)... where they approached me from a rational perspective, so I engaged them without rancor or annoyance or meanness, and discussed what they wanteed to discuss, so I could give them insight... but inside I just was really repulsed by them the whole time and really did not want to be engaged. I wasn't doing that to be two-faced, it just is like you say -- the logic thing kicks in and I can engage on that level and "do my thing" regardless of how I feel about them.

Why do you think people would find satisfaction in your disappointment of them? That they might have gotten through to you? If you could explain that part...? I'm not sure what you are saying.

I don't label people that way per se. I can like cheaters but I'm a political being. Think "Joker". It's all about sending a message. I want my attitude to reflect I don't condone certain actions no matter how I feel about that person.

Ah, got it. I can relate to that.
I have to do that here in my role as mod too.

So she has really put you in a bind, hasn't she? You seem to feel that if you accept her, then you are sending a message that you are accepting of cheaters... so she's almost collateral damage, in a sense; for you to keep your values clear and visible, you have to repudiate her, withdraw, etc.

I like my friend a lot. He's not suddenly unlikeable or all bad. But how can I ever have a chat with him blaming people for being bad and attacking the act of cheating? How can I be ok championing and justifying my values when the people close to me don't get them?

No wonder I'm confused about gender. You keep seeming to change it on me. So he's a he? She's a she? I don't know which pronoun to use...!

Well, you bring up an interesting point. In your friendships, do you need more solidarity of opinion? (At least, in close friendships.) Or are you okay with having differences of opinion? It sounds like you don't want to discuss things you don't agree on, to avoid conflict or argument, so now you feel hemmed in -- you can't express yourself on certain topics because you know it will come off as a judgment of your friend and not just be some abstract vent about a particular ideal....

Does your friend not get your ideal? Or do they get it, they just didn't live up to your ideals this time?

Don't underestimate my intuition. I can't say I was super surprised with this episode. I warned my friend before about letting the SO go, because the other person was getting too involved and attached.

Ah, okay.

I don't want flawed people in my life. Everyone is flawed, that doesn't make us want to be friends with everyone does it? I mean why do YOU even discriminate between friends and other people anyway, if most people are deserving of your friendship? My whole life is based on the fact I never do something I say I don't, in stuff that truly matters.

Well, I'm a weird case and I'm trying to get past it. You know that SX thing I've got, coupled with my own deep feeling of loneliness? I actually would love to be close friends with everyone I meet and has aspired to be such; I've just been realizing that it's unrealistic and will never happen, and maybe isn't even good, so I've been learning to only invest in the people I really align with and LIMIT my most intimate relationships. But it is hard for me.

I think what I was trying to say is that, when I find people I connect with well, who are committed to me as a human being, who show unconditional love, who value me, who want to spend time and invest in me, and who I can also do that for.... then I'm willing to accept mistakes and flaws. Because at that point I know who they are, and I can tell what was a mistake and what is a character flaw. I've invested in them as a unique relationship.

So I guess I am saying: Is this person WORTH your commitment enough that you can and will commit to working through this flaw? Or aren't they? If they're not, then you can pull away. But if they are really someone you want in your life regardless, someone you are committed to as a person, then I would work on getting past this.

as far as the last bit... I take my word very seriously and tortured myself as a teenager over my own failures to live up to my own professed standards. I guess eventually it almost destroyed me and I realized I had to accept that people were flawed... including me... and find out a way to deal with that, because loathing of myself and others was not a productive or realistic path.

I don't label people as much as you think. I'm very flexible. I even interact with the social outcasts or the psychos and pariahs no one else wants to get close to. A friend is not just any kind of relationship for me though.

I'm not really sure what I was thinking about you in general, honestly. Just, in this situation, you were boxing. I tend to actually interact with and get close to the same groups of people, which might or might not be good because they usually have few people to embrace them and then I have to deal with that bond. But I can't say I'm close friends with them. My criteria for "special friend" is more demanding even if I want to feel close to and/or "know" everyone in general.

And my nature is to NOT be adaptive. I'm fairly inflexible. That might be the bane of my existence. But that's what also makes me good at what I am.

An ENFP, led by Ne, who is not adaptive?

I'm going to assume you're talking about your VALUES. I would expect you to be pretty adaptive in some ways, just not there I guess.

I can relate... I'm very adaptive and flexible in some ways, but I can't compromise on my rational approach even when I would like to. I can't lie about the nature of the universe, as far as I see it. I guess you would be similar in terms of your values.

 

[BlackCat]

I think he means that it's a shitty excuse. And it is. Since they're his friends, he has every right to decide if they're worth anything to him or not. And I'd think this thread is proof that he's giving his friend the analysis she deserves instead of just writing her off.

I think I understand his point. His identity is his values and it seems he surrounds himself with those who share those values. If a friend violates one of those, how could he remain friends with someone who doesn't share his values?

This is exactly how I feel about friends. I make friends with people who have shared values to me, and when someone changes like that I'm not sure what to think.

By stypg, I have been through a similar situation. With an acquaintance who I was hoping to get closer with and with someone who I was close with. And with the acquaintance I ended up analyzing my feelings over and over and it just eventually faded away.

But with the close friend I just sort of ignored it. She was kind of fucked up at the time emotionally, and felt really bad for it. But she still did it. It wasn't anything major, not having sex with another person. Just talking to an ex again and lying to her BF.

I don't think you're too hard on people; I can relate to you as usual.

I would suggest talking to them about it? Or would that be too weird at the moment to do?

 

[proteanmix]

You never had a chance to accept your friend. As soon as she violated one of your ideas, she was automatically dumped into the box of "unlikeable." Why not have a more nuanced approach?

Hmm, I don't know if this is a matter of nuanced vs un-nuanced. Conversely, on what grounds can you start to legitimately question a person's character? Even if it's just one thing that makes you question, not a series of things. For example (and this happened!) if your division director instructs employees to forge and falsify documentation that doesn't exist in a critical process. What I'm saying is certain actions don't require history, on their own they count as stand alone, character-defining issues. These are the things that happen few and far between because so few things push people into that mentality, when you see into the heart of a person. Everyday stuff doesn't bring this out of us. Maybe another analogous situation is plagiarism and academic integrity.

If this doesn't qualify as a decision point, what does? There needs to be some markers of integrity I think, you need to be able to able some type of test of trust.

If someone has built themselves on a certain set of principles and you find out they broke something that is supposedly a foundational core belief, for me at least, this triggers a domino effect of questioning the person. Your foundation gets shaken and you question your whole history and past with this person. I think there's a lot of nuance going on, you start sifting through conversations you've had with this person. I don't know, to me it seems like having a earthquake rip through the building and tables and shelves are lying on the broken on the floor and the other person is denying anything even happened.

When my friend did this, I felt like I was looking at a stranger. I felt deceived and lied to by a cheating hypocrite and I personally couldn't ever fix that in my head. It's receded over time and I still talk to her, but it seriously hasn't been the same. I just don't feel the same way about her anymore.

The problem is that everyone, including you, is human, and to generalize someone so much is inevitably either going to dump everyone into the box of "unlikeable" OR it's going to remove some decent but flawed people from your life and might leave some very bad people in your life who merely haven't broken one of your personal rules.

I try very hard to see each person as an individual. Instead of labeling and boxing them, and THEN deciding what to do with them, I just deal with them as a unique person. It seems to give me the most flexibility in maintaining relationships with others.

Yeah, this is another hard one. I think when you use the "everyone is human" argument, you're getting into murky territory and it's easy to justify all types of acts, actions, attitudes, and behaviors in that catch all bin of being human.

I know I personally hold my friends to a higher standard, because as individuals, they did differentiate themselves from everyone else, their unique qualities showed through, and we clicked because of that. I think that sometimes people need to understand that you will suffer the consequences of your decisions and if you gained a romantic partner by questionable means, you may lose a treasured friend. Understanding that worth and value of the relationship seems to act as a check and balance. If I did this, I would experience such feelings of shame and guilt, and knowing my friends, I'd get reamed in the ass (as they should!) and wouldn't even tell them. So then I'm keeping a guilty secret on top of everything. I want my friends to hold me accountable, not put their stamp of approval on everything I do or never question my judgment or integrity.

What you are describing isn't weird, I have heard it from other NFs before. I'm still trying to get a grasp of how you get into that bind. I mean, I guess the best analogy I can empathize through is the intellectual thing -- where if someone shows a deplorable lack of honesty or intellectual capability, I can no longer trust them as much with their ideas. And I think I remember feeling very let down when I was a teenager by people who either proved themselves to be intellectual frauds or people who were not consistent with their own professed moral code... I remember getting depressed over it... but I guess at some point I accepted that (1) I might not be seeing all the forces working on that person and thus judging them fairly and (2) might not really understand why they did what they did. So I needed to be more gracious and open.... especially because I no doubt could be judged by others too similarly.

Oh, lol yeah, it's like academic integrity. I think I'm pretty much a relativist in terms of circumstances acting as gravity upon people and forcing you down certain paths, but I guess this one is just my line in the sand. To me, there is no higher level of thinking on this, my ceiling has been reached. It is what it is and my thoughts are pretty much final.

 

[Moiety]

This was directed at someone else, but there is a way to understand and define without thinking "bad" or "good". One can observe and learn about cause-and-effects. When a tree branch is pulled off a process begins and it withers, or when it rains another process makes a flower grow. Is one "good" and the other "bad"? That same rain might flood a mousehole killing baby mice and the treebranch falls to the forest floor and provide nutrients for its neighboring tree to grow.

Human relationships are like that. This person hurts me in one way, and there is an initial cause of pain, but also peripheral advantages. Everything is intertwined, interacting, and with many repercussions.

Well in this situation there is nothing to be gained. And good and bad are not merely feeling based. There is a logical reason why I don't like cheating. It's gonna ruin the partner's idealism ( cause I know the person) in such a young age, and it's going to ruin it for my friends because it's going to introduce a precedent in life which my friend will have trouble facing years down the road.

what stopped you from saying that you were disappointed?
or what you said was enough to convey your disappointment?

My friend respects me a lot. I make him think about things. I'm mad at myself for not being tougher on him. I was 100% logical all the while saying "I could give you my opinion" but people are different.

Actually... isn't it about you?

It's not really about her at this point, it's about how you feel about her and your investment in the friendship, isn't it? Because you can't deal with what she has done?

It's about the person who was betrayed.

You're not really focused on external things like helping her SO or helping her figure out what comes next pragmatically, you are focused mainly on your own internal feelings about the situation. That is what you are absorbed in.

Maybe on this thread, but what I externalized was always to to help the partner and my friend(not to become a nihilist on the matter).

Like I said above, you seem to be primarily wrestling over your own internal feelings right now. If you don't accept how you feel, you can't get to the next step. Do you think you might feel worse about yourself if you acknowledge how you feel... as if you're a bad person too for feeling negatively about your friend?

It's just that I feel my feelings are of apathy towards this episode as far as my friend is concern. My values should make me feel mad at him, and I kinda am...but he's a good guy for the most part and I'm close to him.

My problem is in excusing him when I shouldn't, and then feel like a hypocrite because I internally judged somebody else. I don't play favorites when it comes to right and wrong.

That sounds legitimate... or at least, you have to wonder in the future whether or not she can walk the walk that she talks about, and how committed she truly is to it.

I guess I would feel sort of abandoned and alone if I had felt like I was in solidarity with a friend like that... and then found out they weren't walking the walk with me.

Yeah. A person that respected me and who I respected, one of the very few people in my life I have ever been close and ....

Why do you think people would find satisfaction in your disappointment of them? That they might have gotten through to you? If you could explain that part...? I'm not sure what you are saying.

A sad satisfaction. Like get that I was disappointed in them would be like I was saying I cared for them after they did that.

So she has really put you in a bind, hasn't she? You seem to feel that if you accept her, then you are sending a message that you are accepting of cheaters... so she's almost collateral damage, in a sense; for you to keep your values clear and visible, you have to repudiate her, withdraw, etc.

Exactly.

No wonder I'm confused about gender. You keep seeming to change it on me. So he's a he? She's a she? I don't know which pronoun to use...!

I wanted to keep it a secret but who cares...it's a he.

Well, you bring up an interesting point. In your friendships, do you need more solidarity of opinion? (At least, in close friendships.) Or are you okay with having differences of opinion? It sounds like you don't want to discuss things you don't agree on, to avoid conflict or argument, so now you feel hemmed in -- you can't express yourself on certain topics because you know it will come off as a judgment of your friend and not just be some abstract vent about a particular ideal....

Funny you ask...in most friendships I need no solidarity of opinion, and in close ones I could very well without it most of the time...but not with somet things. No, I can deal with conflict just fine. I'm very contrarian even with my friends. But yeah, right now I don't want to judge him, because he confided in me.

Does your friend not get your ideal? Or do they get it, they just didn't live up to your ideals this time?

He can do casual sex and a whole of others things I can't. But he always thought cheating was bad.

I think what I was trying to say is that, when I find people I connect with well, who are committed to me as a human being, who show unconditional love, who value me, who want to spend time and invest in me, and who I can also do that for.... then I'm willing to accept mistakes and flaws. Because at that point I know who they are, and I can tell what was a mistake and what is a character flaw. I've invested in them as a unique relationship.

Life isn't about trial and error. Not with some things. I can see how people might need to make some mistakes to realize how stupid they are...but those are not my friends. My close friends have to be wise and have a good heart.

So I guess I am saying: Is this person WORTH your commitment enough that you can and will commit to working through this flaw? Or aren't they? If they're not, then you can pull away. But if they are really someone you want in your life regardless, someone you are committed to as a person, then I would work on getting past this.

I don't think in those terms. It's not a matter of worth or gain. It's a matter of principle. I must stay true to myself...

as far as the last bit... I take my word very seriously and tortured myself as a teenager over my own failures to live up to my own professed standards. I guess eventually it almost destroyed me and I realized I had to accept that people were flawed... including me... and find out a way to deal with that, because loathing of myself and others was not a productive or realistic path.

And this is WHY I must stay true to myself. The years pass and I get more and more disappointed in others. I'm stoic when it comes to staying true to my values even if they don't bring happiness to myself. I see it as some stupid way of being there for others...the defender and advocate of good things...

An ENFP, led by Ne, who is not adaptive?

Yeah not in values. It's not that I think there is an inherent right and wrong to this world and it carefully aligns with my values...I won't force my values upon others...but I will defend the people who are suffering...sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly....I know there is a way to be happy going by my values. I'm not religious or anything. Live and let live and don't be a hypocrite. It's not that hard...

 

[Moiety]

I would suggest talking to them about it? Or would that be too weird at the moment to do?

I did talk to him, but I was not aggressive as I feel I should have been. And was very matter of fact.

 

[Totenkindly]

I think I missed this post completely. Sorry.

What gives anyone the authority to put someone in jail for committing a crime?

Friendships do not operate on the same level as the judicial system.
In fact, friendships that do are not really friendships and never last long.

We all have values. I have mine. I have every right to have a way to judge people based on what I value. So does everyone else.

We can all have values, that's not what is being discussed.

We're discussing what values are constructive and which might end up being detrimental to you.... because you brought it up and were concerned. Since I don't know the situaiton, I'm just asking questions or making comments that might trigger a response from you that will help get all the information out on the table, so as to sift through it better.

I don't owe my friend anything. I don't agree with that line of thought. I hate the concept behind loyalty. For every person I choose to be loyal to, there is another I give up on. It's unfair. I like being impartial...the people that are close to me tend to be the ones that constantly satisfy my standards of what a standup person is. It's fluid. You're not in the friend box or in the non-friend box.

I don't see how you can be in a committed relationship and be impartial. There will simply be some friendships you will invest more in, and others less. If you are impartial, you are connected to no one.

And if you get married, you're going to prioritize that marriage relationship and you will be willing to sacrifice more and commit more and allow yourself to adapt more than you would for any other relationship. It doesn't mean you need to sacrifice your values, it just means you will sweat, bleed, and cry more in that relationship in order to make it work somehow than in any other relationship. (Or you just get divorced when they let you down. I guess that's another option.)

But I get what you are saying in regards to how you pick your closest friends.

I didn't say my friend was a woman either. ]

Goof, I oughta thwack ya! :steam:

Not exactly. This person is an NT so I never expected the same I would from an NF or SJ or SP. But I thought we agreed on some things (i mean that's why we are close friends), and one of those big things is that cheating is despicable and not that hard to avoid, and even illogical and not that self-serving from many perspectives.

Interesting. Well, NT's can be notorious for the detachment/amoral thing and I can definitely see how this has become an issue.

My friend hasn't told the partner. Shows no resolve for the future apart from saying that only the chase being satisfying and not imagining ever getting married.

Okay. See, to me, if it is all that ever gets said, show a lack of commitment to the SO. I feel that, logically, if you are going to be with someone, then you are with them; and if you are not, then you are not. If you both come to an arrangement or at least honest about what your level of commitment is and neither of you leaves, then that is acceptable too.

But cheating and hiding the truth so that the other person can't make an informed decision for their own future, to me, is irresponsible and intellectually dishonest (among other things). If I had a friend who did that, I'd be upset too. I think if he knows he's not committed or wants to be free to chase other people, then he needs to cut his SO loose if she wants to go. He's violating her autonomy even by basic NT standards. And it would put a rift in my friendship with said friend if that situation came up. I'd be forced to decide how much of myself I wanted to invest in resolving the issue or dealing with it.

I was this close to tell I was disappointed in my friend. I just said matter of factly "I never expected something like that from you". No expression on my face, and talking while walking.

Do you think he got that? Or did he just slough it off?

I know I would have "heard what you meant" if you had said that to me, that's a pretty hard statement even if it seems low-key on the surface.

What do you mean by apply? This is not about formally cutting relations with this person. How else am I to like someone if not applying my judgement to them? Why do people give such a negative connotation to the word judging? There are all kinds of judging. Without judging you can't tell good from bad, not even for yourself.

Yup. We have to judge SOMEHOW. We all apply our moral codes to others, just to survive on a day to day basis. The discussion is really about the nuances, to me -- to what level is such judging necessary and preferable, vs unnecessary and/or detrimental?

... i have to disappear for awhile without answering the rest right now, but thank you for all the things you shared in the other posts, it offers even more insight on what you're going through and the situation. It takes awhile from the outside to ask a lot of questions and get a firm grasp on the situation. I also appreciate you sharing so much about such a vulnerable topic.

 

[sculpting]

What do you mean by apply? This is not about formally cutting relations with this person. How else am I to like someone if not applying my judgement to them? Why do people give such a negative connotation to the word judging? There are all kinds of judging. Without judging you can't tell good from bad, not even for yourself.

Sytpg, I didnt mean to imply there was some flaw in how you are handling the situation-just sharing how I handle similar situations in case it may contain value. This sounds like a tough scenario.

Are you saying that you judge the other person's values as part of your friendship? Like their values and yours have to match up? I know what I find to be good and bad in my actions, but I guess I do not trust those decisions enough to externalize them to others except in a scenario where another is being put into a state of pain.

I guess I tend to connect with NTs...its almost always intellectually, thus our values were very likely kinda at odds from the start. I just dont raise the topic....live and let live I guess? Maybe I apply Te judgments, but not Fi judgments....

Just to emphasize-there is nothing wrong in what you are doing...just trying to understand.

 

[Queen Kat]

If friends of mine would cheat on their problems, it's their problem, not mine. I think it would be ridiculous to judge friends on the fact if their faithful to their partners or not. It's their business and it has absolutely nothing to do with me. It's not me who they cheated on. It's not like they raped a thousand innocent little children, killed them and had them for breakfast.

 

[stringstheory]

My values ARE my identity.

I just wanted to reply to this because i feel very much the same as you describe here, and I'm in a similar position with my roommate...she cheated on her boyfriend, who she claims to love, multiple times before they ended their relationship for the umpteenth timenot due to the cheating, they were both just very unhappy together, despite the fact that she's already changing her mind and wanting to get back together with him.

I feel the exact same way as you regarding values and identity, but one of the problematic things i've found with this is that values at some point will always conflict; consistency is not a human trait. Seems to me you're experiencing a similar crisis. but for me the value of not being judgmental overrules in my situation.

I don't mean judgmental in the sense that i can't say if it's 'good' or 'bad'; of course i think it's bad! i absolutely ABHOR cheating, i've been cheated on before and it's very degrading on both ends. i know where i stand on the issue for myself, and so does my roommate because our own relationship is based off of honesty. but the fact remains that i have very different life experiences than my friend, and that things aren't so black and white when it comes to relationships of any kind.

frankly, even though such experiences don't excuse her behaviour, it certainly makes it harder for me to label her "bad" or lose respect for her. she grew up in a very broken home with very strict gender roles...she actually really thinks that if she is not married by 25 with kids by 27, she is a failure. Those words are hers, not mine. Her boyfriend-thing is the best thing to a stable, healthy partner that she's ever had. at the same time, he is VERY young and just not right for her. he's a nice enough guy, but they aren't right for each other. But she REALLY doesn't think she's going to find anything better, and i always tell her "not with those deadlines you're not", but we all know how hard it is to change human behaviour of our own, much less that of others.

So while she's unhappy with the relationship, she actually thinks she loves him and literally thinks that this relationship is the best chance she has at leading a successful life. in her mind, all she needs to do is wait for him to grow up be the person she wants him to be and meanwhile she has to do what she can to keep herself satisfied (without his knowing, of course).

And well....how do i know i wouldn't do the same thing were I in her position? i don't, i can only see from mine. So while she knows i think it's reprehensible, it's hard for me to be much more than disappointed in her.

At the same time yes, my values are my identity and so having to deal with this on such an intimate level eats at me and I still need to do what i need to do to keep myself stable. she knows my complete stance on the issue; I've told her that once the lease is up i cannot live with her anymore as this kind of behaviour upsets me greatly, that i cannot deal with it on this intimate of a level...and she completely understands. to me this says quite a lot about our personal relationship, really.

I also do not mean to imply that there's anything wrong with how you are handling your own situation, i wanted to respond to the issues and values/self-identity and explain the "judgment" thing, from my perspective.

 

[Billy]

I would tell them not to involve me in their lies. And leave it at that.

 

[kyuuei]

I don't feel it my place to judge people based on their private lives. My point is.. he may not be a good lover, but love the love of friends are two very different kinds. I have friends that have god-awful love lives tangled in a sticky mess... and yet, they're beautiful, wonderful friends. Not eveyone is good with monogamous relationships. Unfortunate, but I can't judge them on it one way or the other. All it says is we'd not be compatible dates.

With that said.. I'd express my dislike of it.. but as a friend, I can't turn my back on people when they make mistakes and do something wrong.. that's the time I ought to be there for them moreso than normal.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I think it’s about more than wanting friends who have similar values, or thinking about how it affects me to have a friend with values dissimilar to my own. If you stay friends with someone who is doing something you personally find reprehensible, you’re inadvertently affirming that what they’re doing isn’t so bad. You can say the words ‘I don’t respect your actions’, but if you’re still willing to hang out with them- it’s implying something about the extent to which you mean what you say. It’s like people who disparage Walmart for being a monster, yet still shop there because it’s cheaper; in the end, the consumer vote means more and has more effect than the ill opinions voiced. There’s some famous quote- something like ‘all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing’. I’m all about having a ‘live and let live’ attitude with friends- unless the ‘living’ in question is causing someone else harm. Sometimes turning a blind eye is contributing to the harm.

But, with that being said, it’s seldom black and white and there are underlying reasons for the cheating that aren’t always clear. I try to understand where people are coming from and why- for them- it seems justifiable to cheat rather than end a relationship. This is something all people are prone to doing in their own way: throwing shit in the pool, and then convincing themselves the ends justify the means. I know it’s something I’ve done myself (not with cheating per se, but general ‘throwing shit in the pool’ behavior). And sometimes all a person needs is having it pointed out to them that they are convincing themselves something that isn’t true so that they can get something they want without paying the full price for it. I suspect we all need to be called on that sometimes.

In the end I think that’s what kind of separates the people I believe are worth my time from the people who aren’t. I won’t turn my back on someone for being human and flawed and therefore liable to stray in sound judgment; but I’m really only interested in investing my time in people who ultimately want to know when their judgment is unfairly causing others to suffer and want to take responsibility for it (even if it isn't causing me harm).

So, in answer to the question: I would try my best to understand why they believe the behavior is justified. If it really seems like they just don't care or don't want the responsibility (and for a good friend, it would take *a lot* for me to be convinced this is the case) then I would probably lose interest in being their friend. Either way, I wouldn’t turn a blind eye.

 

[Moiety]

I don't see how you can be in a committed relationship and be impartial. There will simply be some friendships you will invest more in, and others less. If you are impartial, you are connected to no one.

I'm impartial in that I act towards everyone the same way. I don't randomly choose a group of people to be good to. If you are part of my group of friends it's because we share similarities and you deserve special treatment because we enjoy mutual reciprocity. One sided it's charity, two sided it's friendship. But I'm impartial and know why and when and until when someone is my friend.

Do you think he got that? Or did he just slough it off?

I know I would have "heard what you meant" if you had said that to me, that's a pretty hard statement even if it seems low-key on the surface.

I "heard" it. I just tend to be very supportive of him and always there to hear him out...so this time he had this to confess I played my usual part...but I should have made him heard a more louder message. I'm not know for my subtlety when I reaaally wanna be heard, so he might not have picked up on the emphasis I want to put on that.

... i have to disappear for awhile without answering the rest right now, but thank you for all the things you shared in the other posts, it offers even more insight on what you're going through and the situation. It takes awhile from the outside to ask a lot of questions and get a firm grasp on the situation. I also appreciate you sharing so much about such a vulnerable topic.

Well even if I hated him a lot I wouldn't want to expose the details of his life on here. I'm keeping it vague on purpose. To protect him. Not as friend, as someone I treat justly like I would anyone. That's the upside of my impartiality if you catch my drift.

Are you saying that you judge the other person's values as part of your friendship? Like their values and yours have to match up? I know what I find to be good and bad in my actions, but I guess I do not trust those decisions enough to externalize them to others except in a scenario where another is being put into a state of pain.

Yes, and his partner is. Not to sound like Gandhi but those people are the people my inflexible values are there for in the first place. I know the girl only a few months now and I've know the guy for 10 years...but that's context. It could have been her that I knew for 10 years and him just a couple of months ago...it wouldn't change my values or the way I choose to interact with people.

If friends of mine would cheat on their problems, it's their problem, not mine. I think it would be ridiculous to judge friends on the fact if their faithful to their partners or not. It's their business and it has absolutely nothing to do with me. It's not me who they cheated on. It's not like they raped a thousand innocent little children, killed them and had them for breakfast.

Nothing I hate more than that mentality. I don't give a fuck if you treat me like royalty and others like shit. In fact I'm know for "spitting on the face" of people who kiss my ass after certain episodes where they shit all over someone's head.

And no he didn't rape little children. But it's a matter of principle and trust. I liar isn't a criminal and I wouldn't want to be friends with a liar. Not saying he is one...just saying the logic is the same I would apply to that. Being a liar doesn't make you rape little children, but it still makes you unworthy in some ways.

And well....how do i know i wouldn't do the same thing were I in her position? i don't, i can only see from mine. So while she knows i think it's reprehensible, it's hard for me to be much more than disappointed in her.

The same you know you are not a child rapist under any circumstances. Guess what, we all have problems. He has his, and I know them better than most. And I have mine.

Your friend had a weird way of showing he loved him. You use all the context to put it in perspective. There comes a point where lines have to be drawn. God knows I'm far from the coldest person on this world...

I don't feel it my place to judge people based on their private lives. My point is.. he may not be a good lover, but love the love of friends are two very different kinds. I have friends that have god-awful love lives tangled in a sticky mess... and yet, they're beautiful, wonderful friends. Not eveyone is good with monogamous relationships. Unfortunate, but I can't judge them on it one way or the other. All it says is we'd not be compatible dates.

With that said.. I'd express my dislike of it.. but as a friend, I can't turn my back on people when they make mistakes and do something wrong.. that's the time I ought to be there for them moreso than normal.

All this non-judgy speech is making my head spin. Do you care about anything in life? Judging is my way of caring. If i didn't care I'd be "friends" with anyone. Not judging means I don't care. "Go ahead, screw people over my friend, I'll be there for you no matter what you do." Where the fuck would be the beauty in friendship if that were the case?

I never said I'd turn my back on him. I know I won't, that's not how i roll. I would never be a dick to him just to see him suffer. But how can I FEEL he is a friend, someone I respect, if I don't?

And I very strongly disagree with the bolded part. A good person is a good person everywhere. It's this sickening idea that we have to choose sides and discriminate between people "just because" that made me who I am today. I'm strongly opposed to that. I won't turn a blind eye to cruelty or bad things no matter who does it. Everyone has their friends. If everyone excused their own friends for bad deeds, soon enough no would could be accountable for any crime.

I value forgiveness and I'm not one to hold grudges. But I hold EVERYONE accountable for their own actions. Friends included.

I can't bring itself to not still like the guy very much, but my values are there to protect others and to make sure bad things do happen on my watch. I won't meddle into his or his partner's affairs. But I will show my disgust and/or disappointment in his actions.

I think it’s about more than wanting friends who have similar values, or thinking about how it affects me to have a friend with values dissimilar to my own. If you stay friends with someone who is doing something you personally find reprehensible, you’re inadvertently affirming that what they’re doing isn’t so bad. You can say the words ‘I don’t respect your actions’, but if you’re still willing to hang out with them- it’s implying something about the extent to which you mean what you say. It’s like people who disparage Walmart for being a monster, yet still shop there because it’s cheaper; in the end, the consumer vote means more and has more effect than the ill opinions voiced. There’s some famous quote- something like ‘all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing’. I’m all about having a ‘live and let live’ attitude with friends- unless the ‘living’ in question is causing someone else harm. Sometimes turning a blind eye is contributing to the harm.

Please read this, people. McFate gets it.

So, in answer to the question: I would try my best to understand why they believe the behavior is justified.

He doesn't. But he does say he's tried making it clear they were taking things where they went. The partner adores him though and he knows she's way more attached.

If it really seems like they just don't care or don't want the responsibility (and for a good friend, it would take *a lot* for me to be convinced this is the case) then I would probably lose interest in being their friend. Either way, I wouldn’t turn a blind eye.

So would you base your "decision" on whether or not he had the balls to tell her?

My friend doesn't want his partner to grow bitter and stop believing in love...and he said he doesn't want to destroy what is beautiful about his partner. His partner is still young.

For all my in-your-face honesty...and since I'm more worried about his partner dealing with this with as less pain as possible...for one of the first times in my life I actually think it might be good he doesn't tell his partner since they are going to break up anyway soon....my friend is moving and so is his partner and they both kinda know the context and timing aren't right...

All the more reason for me to be pissed at my friend. I told him to break this up ages ago. And he knew he had to.

 

[stringstheory]

The same you know you are not a child rapist under any circumstances. Guess what, we all have problems. He has his, and I know them better than most. And I have mine.

no offense but you'll have to do a lot more in order to convince me those are anywhere near on the same level of despicable. and i dunno, i tend to think most human behaviour stems from socialization (note: not a personal choice), so going with that theory i have to say that i no idea how i would've turned out were i to have different life experiences. agree to disagree i suppose?

Your friend had a weird way of showing he loved him. You use all the context to put it in perspective. There comes a point where lines have to be drawn. God knows I'm far from the coldest person on this world...

TBH i don't think she really loves him...she just thinks she does because he's the first guy who hasn't treated her like absolute shit.

and yes, i do use all the context to put it in perspective. the perspective doesn't excuse her behaviour in my eyes, but it makes it more understandable. after a lot of thinking and evaluating my values i found it really doesn't do much more than upset me enough to not want to live with my best friend anymore..i already see that as a pretty harsh condemnation myself.

but i've drawn my line, it just doesn't extend to ending our friendship because my Te can't find a logical reason to do so when she's done a lot for me and has never done anything close to hurting me, even if my Fi knows her actions are disgraceful. it's not that i don't care about anything; quite the opposite, two of my strongly held values include loyalty to people who have proven to be true friends and to do my best to understand where people are coming from. Again, values are going to eventually conflict, nothing new, it's about prioritizing.

Please read this, people. McFate gets it.

Of course it says something about the extent to which i do not respect her actions. Again, values have varying levels of priority so it makes sense that someone could disapprove of the actions of a friend while still having enough respect for them to remain friends. I don't see anything wrong with this, things simply aren't this black and white. What my friend has done is bad in my eyes, but not bad enough to cancel out all the good times we've had and all the bad times in which she has literally been my saviour, especially considering she didn't do anything to me personally.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

So would you base your "decision" on whether or not he had the balls to tell her?

My friend doesn't want his partner to grow bitter and stop believing in love...and he said he doesn't want to destroy what is beautiful about his partner. His partner is still young.

That’s a hard question, it doesn’t really have a one-size-fits-all answer. I mean, if I stop to consider what I’d do with my own friends- each of my friends is so different, with different strengths and weaknesses in their judgment- that I’d react differently to any one of them telling me something like this. I wouldn’t dissolve a 10 year friendship over it if it seemed really out of character for the person. It generally takes a few such incidents to make me lose interest in staying friends with someone.

The only thing I can say I’d probably do in every case is express the extent to which I was disappointed (trying not to sound holier-than-thou, but just really pointing out what I wrote above about it being selfish to damage someone else’s security and trust for the sake of taking something that doesn’t belong to them) and I’d probably focus on helping the friend figure out which path would create the least amount of consequent damage (which you wrote has already occurred to you).

And regarding whether or not it’d be a good idea to tell her- again, I don’t think there’s any one-size-fits-all answer here either. I guess I’d try to get an idea of how likely it could be that this girl might find out from another source. If there’s any feasible grapevine at all there, it might be a good idea to tell her because the damage could be a lot worse in the end if she hears it from another source. But if there isn’t a grapevine- I really don’t know.

I can tell you that if it were me, I’d want to know- this was true for me even when I was younger. And the best possible way someone could break the news to me is to completely own they’d messed up, own that it was selfish and that they’d taken advantage of my trust- and then to let me get as angry as I needed to get, all without defending what they did to me. That’s probably what would feel like the most respectful way to clean it up.

Hopefully some other women here can give an opinion about whether or not they’d want to know. I really don't know where most women stand with that.

 

[stringstheory]

Hopefully some other women here can give an opinion about whether or not they’d want to know. I really don't know where most women stand with that.

I'd certainly want to know...so i could either end the relationship myself (most likely) or decide what steps are appropriate to fix the problem (far less likely, but possible depending on their commitment towards fixing the problem and/or the situation).

and I would most CERTAINLY want to know if i were planning on moving/moving in with the person, since i see this as a step towards a different level of commitment and i would absolutely not want to make this step with someone if i knew he/she weren't 100% devoted to me if that is the arrangement upon which we agreed.

 

[Fidelia]

I think it’s about more than wanting friends who have similar values, or thinking about how it affects me to have a friend with values dissimilar to my own. If you stay friends with someone who is doing something you personally find reprehensible, you’re inadvertently affirming that what they’re doing isn’t so bad. You can say the words ‘I don’t respect your actions’, but if you’re still willing to hang out with them- it’s implying something about the extent to which you mean what you say. It’s like people who disparage Walmart for being a monster, yet still shop there because it’s cheaper; in the end, the consumer vote means more and has more effect than the ill opinions voiced. There’s some famous quote- something like ‘all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing’. I’m all about having a ‘live and let live’ attitude with friends- unless the ‘living’ in question is causing someone else harm. Sometimes turning a blind eye is contributing to the harm.

But, with that being said, it’s seldom black and white and there are underlying reasons for the cheating that aren’t always clear. I try to understand where people are coming from and why- for them- it seems justifiable to cheat rather than end a relationship. This is something all people are prone to doing in their own way: throwing shit in the pool, and then convincing themselves the ends justify the means. I know it’s something I’ve done myself (not with cheating per se, but general ‘throwing shit in the pool’ behavior). And sometimes all a person needs is having it pointed out to them that they are convincing themselves something that isn’t true so that they can get something they want without paying the full price for it. I suspect we all need to be called on that sometimes.

In the end I think that’s what kind of separates the people I believe are worth my time from the people who aren’t. I won’t turn my back on someone for being human and flawed and therefore liable to stray in sound judgment; but I’m really only interested in investing my time in people who ultimately want to know when their judgment is unfairly causing others to suffer and want to take responsibility for it (even if it isn't causing me harm).

So, in answer to the question: I would try my best to understand why they believe the behavior is justified. If it really seems like they just don't care or don't want the responsibility (and for a good friend, it would take *a lot* for me to be convinced this is the case) then I would probably lose interest in being their friend. Either way, I wouldn’t turn a blind eye.

I agree with this. I tried to add to it, and ended up concluding that as often is the case, Z Buck said it better than I could have!