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[ENFP] ENFP girlfriend confusing me! Help!

Liesl

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Jun 20, 2010
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204
Say what?

I'm about to find that extraordinarily offensive and I might have an idea why. If you want to maintain a position where intuition is allowed to keep working and working and getting new opportunities and working and working and still finding new and newer things, fine. It is however endlessly dumb to cast other people as inadequate or misguided if they don't have to do the same thing before reaching appropriate insight.

Preconceived notions? How about this one: "there's always more data to be found and it could change everything you know!" That preconceived notion is NP to the core, and isn't as automatically appropriate for use on an NJ as it is on an SJ.


/rant.
What? INTJs don't lie any less than any other type. They're not that emotionally aware and are thrown off by the more complex, emotionally charged language that I am fascinated by and find revelatory.

They aren't honed or elegant emotionally because their 'tasks' aren't in the arena of profoundly understanding other human beings. So they choose to use this sort of black and white, direct, directive, chunky language because it's functional for them. And they convince themselves that only the emotions that they give merit to are worth giving merit to. A lot of what INTJs perceive as 'lies' are actually just complex truths that fly straight over their heads.

They convince themselves that their bluntness is from honesty, but it's not...they just don't have enough emotional nuance to operate under situations that are highly emotionally complicated. Maybe they just convince themselves that it stems from 'honesty' to make themselves feel better, maybe it's because they genuinely cannot comprehend that other people have vastly different (and equally or more legitimate and worthwhile motives) than them.

I've SEEN INTJs LIE. They lie when their careers are in jeopardy or when they are on the brink of a big accomplishment. They start shutting down information about themselves that they don't want to know so that they can preserve the image of themselves that they want and get to goal X.

What one type might consider a lie, another type might consider a crucially necessary invasion for their 'task.' What one type might consider 'honesty,' another type might consider un-evolved, primitive bluntness for the sake of self-preservation and not for the benefit of others. IT'S ALL RELATIVE.
 
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Esoteric Wench

Professional Trickster
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Dec 20, 2009
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945
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7w8
I don't know. I'm the type to want to deal with relationship issues immediately and as openly as possible. My wife is as J as they come and is more likely to ignore them. Everyone in her family does this. Like they think there is no issue if you don't express it. They think it goes away when they ignore it. I don't think not dealing with relationship issues is a P thing.

It is settled, then: it's just an invidual trait. :D

It's not that it's a P thing, I guess. I immediately deal with "relationship issues." However, when it comes to LEAVING the relationship this is an entirely different matter.

I will do ANYTHING under the sun to make the relationship work. But sometimes this isn't enough. It's not that I don't want to deal with even this issue. It's that I don't want to admit defeat or lop off my options.

So I would say it is indeed an FP thing. Well put.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
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INTJ
What? INTJs don't lie any less than any other type. They're not that emotionally aware and are thrown off by the more complex, emotionally charged language that I am fascinated by and find revelatory.

They aren't honed or elegant emotionally because their 'tasks' aren't in the arena of profoundly understanding other human beings. So they choose to use this sort of black and white, direct, directive, chunky language because it's functional for them. And they convince themselves that only the emotions that they give merit to are worth giving merit to. A lot of what INTJs perceive as 'lies' are actually just complex truths that fly straight over their heads.

They convince themselves that their bluntness is from honesty, but it's not...they just don't have enough emotional nuance to operate under situations that are highly emotionally complicated. Maybe they just convince themselves that it stems from 'honesty' to make themselves feel better, maybe it's because they genuinely cannot comprehend that other people have vastly different (and equally or more legitimate and worthwhile motives) than them.

I've SEEN INTJs LIE. They lie when their careers are in jeopardy or when they are on the brink of a big accomplishment. They start shutting down information about themselves that they don't want to know so that they can preserve the image of themselves that they want and get to goal X.

What one type might consider a lie, another type might consider a crucially necessary invasion for their 'task.' What one type might consider 'honesty,' another type might consider un-evolved, primitive bluntness for the sake of self-preservation and not for the benefit of others. IT'S ALL RELATIVE.

It's a feature of introverted perception that if the outer world is disordered, the inner world sheers away from its moorings. Thus, we, the INJs, have a certain hysterical attachment to having everything out there be true.

The rest of what you said was weird and amounted to saying you know there are people not capable of the same level of emotional awareness, but you DON'T find ways to make that awareness accessible.

See, outer objectivity, inner subjectivity means other people are supposed to say what's true if they want the best from us.



And if they don't, we can lie to save ourselves.
 

Liesl

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204
It's a feature of introverted perception that if the outer world is disordered, the inner world sheers away from its moorings. Thus, we, the INJs, have a certain hysterical attachment to having everything out there be true.

The rest of what you said was weird and amounted to saying you know there are people not capable of the same level of emotional awareness, but you DON'T find ways to make that awareness accessible.

See, outer objectivity, inner subjectivity means other people are supposed to say what's true if they want the best from us.



And if they don't, we can lie to save ourselves.
What do you mean 'make that awareness accessible'? It's something you have to develop for yourself if you want a place amongst people. And the last two things you said don't make any sense and seem to underscore the fact that you don't understand what I was saying.

The point is that just because YOUR assessment of something is that it's false, that doesn't mean that it IS false. So, when you 'deprive' other people of the 'best of you' (HAH!), you are often depriving yourself of the real truth. That's the point. (So, what ends up happening is that someone says something that is true but is disruptive to your mental framework. You dismiss it, saying that it's 'a lie' and go back to thinking in your incorrect framework, convincing yourself that it's all their fault and that they were lying to you.)
 
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thescientist

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Jul 23, 2009
Messages
254
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INTJ
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5w4
What? INTJs don't lie any less than any other type. They're not that emotionally aware and are thrown off by the more complex, emotionally charged language that I am fascinated by and find revelatory.

They aren't honed or elegant emotionally because their 'tasks' aren't in the arena of profoundly understanding other human beings. So they choose to use this sort of black and white, direct, directive, chunky language because it's functional for them. And they convince themselves that only the emotions that they give merit to are worth giving merit to. A lot of what INTJs perceive as 'lies' are actually just complex truths that fly straight over their heads.

They convince themselves that their bluntness is from honesty, but it's not...they just don't have enough emotional nuance to operate under situations that are highly emotionally complicated. Maybe they just convince themselves that it stems from 'honesty' to make themselves feel better, maybe it's because they genuinely cannot comprehend that other people have vastly different (and equally or more legitimate and worthwhile motives) than them.

I've SEEN INTJs LIE. They lie when their careers are in jeopardy or when they are on the brink of a big accomplishment. They start shutting down information about themselves that they don't want to know so that they can preserve the image of themselves that they want and get to goal X.

What one type might consider a lie, another type might consider a crucially necessary invasion for their 'task.' What one type might consider 'honesty,' another type might consider un-evolved, primitive bluntness for the sake of self-preservation and not for the benefit of others. IT'S ALL RELATIVE.

Liesl...I understand there can be GOOD intentions behind white lies. However, when the intentions are selfish and a means to protect one's reputation or to save face...which has been MOST of the time in IME with ENFPs and which is the case for fecaleagle here, then there is no excuse. You HURT people with your omissions.

It has nothing to do with depriving ourselves of the real truth or convincing ourselves that it's the other party's fault. I'm pretty self-aware of my faults and am quick to acknowledge them in a confrontation. This is where the INTJ honesty comes in.

Im not talking about BLUNTNESS as truth....I am talking about the SIMPLE TRUTH. And I am not saying INTJs can't be liars, however, for the most part, you will find that we dislike beating around the bush and embellishing things. We rather have the ugly truth told to us AND say it too.
 

thescientist

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5w4
It seems like thescientist could have saved us all a lot of time and energy...

Is that sarcasm? I cant tell online. :S I didnt jump in the thread to begin with because I'd sound like an ENFP hater again, especially because of my bad recent experience and all my other ENFP threads. Also because I have a stupid fear of being wrong so I wont say something until I'm 100% sure or it's already confirmed.

ANYWAY, I just wanted to believe this situation was going to turn out differently...I really did.....I don't believe I have all the answers. I recognize that a lot of what I say in this thread is emotional and I hope most can pick up on it.

I dont hate ENFPs...I fucking love you guys...and that's what scares the shit out of me. ENFPs live in a world of possibilities where nothing is decided or definite...How can an INTJ possibly be sure they're not just another possibility for the ENFP?? ....How do you know they just wont get tired of the relationship and bail out for supposed 'greener pastures'...It's like we're the ones constantly in the danger zone with ENFPs.... :(
 

stalemate

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Is that sarcasm? I cant tell online. :S I didnt jump in the thread to begin with because I'd sound like an ENFP hater again, especially because of my bad recent experience and all my other ENFP threads. Also because I have a stupid fear of being wrong so I wont say something until I'm 100% sure or it's already confirmed.

ANYWAY, I just wanted to believe this situation was going to turn out differently...I really did.....I don't believe I have all the answers. I recognize that a lot of what I say in this thread is emotional and I hope most can pick up on it.

I dont hate ENFPs...I fucking love you guys...and that's what scares the shit out of me. ENFPs live in a world of possibilities where nothing is decided or definite...How can an INTJ possibly be sure they're not just another possibility for the ENFP?? ....How do you know they just wont get tired of the relationship and bail out for supposed 'greener pastures'...It's like we're the ones constantly in the danger zone with ENFPs.... :(
There was a bit of sarcasm but I was also genuinely wondering why you didn't speak up sooner. It is easy to say "I knew this all along" when you wait until it is settled and done to chime in. You really might have been able to help fecaleagle figure things out sooner had you participated. Who knows.

My apologies if you were helping him in private or something.
 

thescientist

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There was a bit of sarcasm but I was also genuinely wondering why you didn't speak up sooner. It is easy to say "I knew this all along" when you wait until it is settled and done to chime in. You really might have been able to help fecaleagle figure things out sooner had you participated. Who knows.

My apologies if you were helping him in private or something.

I was just hoping my Ni was wrong...I really was....

Just like I hoped my Ni was wrong about my ENFP....I want to believe people are good and honest....

I was that kid in school who always had a hunch for the right answer in class but never raised her hand for fear of being wrong...and my intuition was usually right...then I'd kick myself for not having raised my hand. I still do that in life to this very day. I just stay quiet and observe until events confirm my intuition :shrugs:

When fecaleagle told me what happened through PM I instantly felt compelled to write about it...I dunno.
 

Moiety

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Is that sarcasm? I cant tell online. :S I didnt jump in the thread to begin with because I'd sound like an ENFP hater again, especially because of my bad recent experience and all my other ENFP threads. Also because I have a stupid fear of being wrong so I wont say something until I'm 100% sure or it's already confirmed.

ANYWAY, I just wanted to believe this situation was going to turn out differently...I really did.....I don't believe I have all the answers. I recognize that a lot of what I say in this thread is emotional and I hope most can pick up on it.

I dont hate ENFPs...I fucking love you guys...and that's what scares the shit out of me. ENFPs live in a world of possibilities where nothing is decided or definite...How can an INTJ possibly be sure they're not just another possibility for the ENFP?? ....How do you know they just wont get tired of the relationship and bail out for supposed 'greener pastures'...It's like we're the ones constantly in the danger zone with ENFPs.... :(

You are hopeless. You have Ni, can't you freakin tell? If you ignore red flags you are only digging YOUR grave, no one else's. If an ENFP is consistent with you have no reason to doubt his/her feelings.
 

thescientist

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You are hopeless. You have Ni, can't you freakin tell? If you ignore red flags you are only digging YOUR grave, no one else's. If an ENFP is consistent with you have no reason to doubt his/her feelings.

In fecaleagle's case you can argue that she had been consistent for 3 years...then what?

FYI: I am not challenging you...I am simply rationalizing things in my head. The goal is understanding here for me.

EDIT: Was thinking...Nothing is ever guranteed in relationships...my rationalizing is a moot point.
 

Moiety

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In fecaleagle's case you can argue that she had been consistent for 3 years...then what?

FYI: I am not challenging you...I am simply rationalizing things in my head. The goal is understanding here for me.

EDIT: Was thinking...Nothing is ever guranteed in relationships...my rationalizing is a moot point.

I haven't read what she happened after those 3 years apart from the initial post (and if that is the inconsistency you are talking about I'll tell you she IS being consistent, he was the one being inconsistent). That' beside the point though.

There is a whole slew of attributes you are associating with ENFPs because you met a couple of guys that from your description are just weird versions of ENFPs that don't even make a whole lot of sense to a lot of the rest of us.

So weird in fact they sound like another type altogether.
 

thescientist

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There is a whole slew of attributes you are associating with ENFPs because you met a couple of guys that from your description are just weird versions of ENFPs that don't even make a whole lot of sense to a lot of the rest of us.

So weird in fact they sound like another type altogether.

Im not the only one recognizing these ENFP patterns in the thread.

I think putting down my feelings and experiences serves SOME purpose, biased though they may be. Perhaps it will be enlightening for an ENFP that does recognize some of those behaviors.

I am glad you do not relate to them.
 

Thalassa

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Well, there's also a pattern in other places of INTJs being distant and emotionally unavailable, so naturally there are flaws in every type if we want to get down to it.

At the same time, I really see an issue with ENFPs wanting to accept that ENFPs have flaws...none of us are perfect, guys.
 

Moiety

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Im not the only one recognizing these ENFP patterns in the thread.

What patterns are you talking about? Be specific? That we are not honest? That would be the most preposterous claim ever. And finding someone that agrees with you doesn't mean that ENFP traits inherently produce said "patterns".

Once you get into your head the guy you described on so many posts is not and ENFP, but just some guy....you'll be better at pragmatically using MBTI to your advantage. For better understanding.

I think putting down my feelings and experiences serves SOME purpose, biased though they may be. Perhaps it will be enlightening for an ENFP that does recognize some of those behaviors.

I am glad you do not relate to them.

I am them. Or at least I am part of them. That's what the test said.
 

Lady_X

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Well, there's also a pattern in other places of INTJs being distant and emotionally unavailable, so naturally there are flaws in every type if we want to get down to it.

At the same time, I really see an issue with ENFPs wanting to accept that ENFPs have flaws...none of us are perfect, guys.

oh!! this is the response that got lost when the site crashed for me. i forgot.

anyway...i think enfps are just at times annoyingly defensive...not just in our own defense but for whatever side we think needs representation...the perspective not being shown.

but...i know quite a few enfps really well and we are very aware of our faults...even on here you can see us whining omfg i'm soooo screwed up!! wahhh!! i know...i'm painfully aware on a daily basis...so...that defensiveness might actually be different than what it appears.
 

Liesl

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Liesl...I understand there can be GOOD intentions behind white lies. However, when the intentions are selfish and a means to protect one's reputation or to save face...which has been MOST of the time in IME with ENFPs and which is the case for fecaleagle here, then there is no excuse. You HURT people with your omissions.

It has nothing to do with depriving ourselves of the real truth or convincing ourselves that it's the other party's fault. I'm pretty self-aware of my faults and am quick to acknowledge them in a confrontation. This is where the INTJ honesty comes in.

Im not talking about BLUNTNESS as truth....I am talking about the SIMPLE TRUTH. And I am not saying INTJs can't be liars, however, for the most part, you will find that we dislike beating around the bush and embellishing things. We rather have the ugly truth told to us AND say it too.
I'm not talking about situations involving blatant dishonesty, like the case that this thread revolves around. But that has very little to do with type and has everything to with an individual behaving in a kind of socially irresponsible way, something that happens with every type, including INTJs.

The idea that ENFPs are somehow more prone to lying than INTJs is not a solid claim. First of all, I interact with INTJs all the time that have no ability to admit their own faults or see anything from any perspective out of their own. 'Honesty' to them seems to be something that they have defined based on some primitive criteria that don't hold up for a second in the real world. But basically, to them, if it's not lying based on THEIR criteria (which are often faulty), then it's not lying. So, I don't know what you're referring to when you say 'INTJ honesty.' I feel like they're dishonest all the time, even though they'll go to the grave saying they're 'honest.'

Maybe the numerous INTJs I've dealt with are not reflective of the type at large. But I think it's more likely that if you do have the qualities you've stated you have, you're an anomaly within the type, a more evolved INTJ.
 
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Ratsimoan

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Mar 25, 2010
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:yes:

I basically make my wife deal with it when I can tell something is wrong. (I know that sounds bad :p) And sometimes it even makes me cry, depending on what it is. She once in a while says she doesn't like telling me things because they upset me, but I think she has realized that it is good for me (and us) to just take it and process it and get it dealt with.

If something is "wrong" I will know it even if I don't know specifically what it is. There is really no point in trying to ignore it.

True. Sometimes I got tired of trying to ignore the elephant in the room.
 

Ratsimoan

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Is that sarcasm? I cant tell online. :S I didnt jump in the thread to begin with because I'd sound like an ENFP hater again, especially because of my bad recent experience and all my other ENFP threads. Also because I have a stupid fear of being wrong so I wont say something until I'm 100% sure or it's already confirmed.

ANYWAY, I just wanted to believe this situation was going to turn out differently...I really did.....I don't believe I have all the answers. I recognize that a lot of what I say in this thread is emotional and I hope most can pick up on it.

I dont hate ENFPs...I fucking love you guys...and that's what scares the shit out of me. ENFPs live in a world of possibilities where nothing is decided or definite...How can an INTJ possibly be sure they're not just another possibility for the ENFP?? ....How do you know they just wont get tired of the relationship and bail out for supposed 'greener pastures'...It's like we're the ones constantly in the danger zone with ENFPs.... :(

The whole "greener pastures" is driving me crazy. :crazy: I think like all types enfps look for a relationships that "fit"-fit for them and the person they are with. Unfortunately, immature/unhealthy enfps goes about finding that "fit" in a way where people get hurt. I really think enfps have to grow to discover that "fit."
The "greener pastures" is unhealthy traits of enfps, so is staying in unhealthy relationships.
 

thescientist

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Let me clarify something...I have not claimed that dishonesty is inherently an ENFP trait. It would be STUPID of me to say that about any type.

However, last time I checked, this type is known for their "gift of gab" which can be used for good as well as evil. And I have observed it first-hand in ENFPs. They can usually talk their way in and out of everything. I dont think the same can be said about ANY type. Especially not most INTJs. (I AM NOT CLAIMING WE ARE BETTER OR PERFECT BY ANY MEANS...we have weaknesses in plenty of other areas)

I am talking about the bigger picture anyway...how all of these small traits have been a pattern I'VE personally recognized in some of the ENFPs that I'VE known.

If you're an ENFP and DONT relate to the negative qualities I've mentioned in this thread, then GOOD FOR YOU. :nice:

No need to take any of what I've said about ENFPs personal. These are MY experiences and observations. If they don't apply to you, then don't worry about it. I realize you are not all like that.


Well, there's also a pattern in other places of INTJs being distant and emotionally unavailable, so naturally there are flaws in every type if we want to get down to it.

At the same time, I really see an issue with ENFPs wanting to accept that ENFPs have flaws...none of us are perfect, guys.
+1
 
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