[ENFP] ENFP girlfriend confusing me! Help!

[stringstheory]

Interesting. Out of curiosity, do you really think that just because I didn't "get" that aspect of how she would react to something, that it's safe to say that I don't "get" her? That seems harsh because our connection is so strong and so deep, but of course not as deep as it can be. It's kind of like saying that she doesn't "get" me because she is taking my words so personally. I think that overall she "gets" me, and that I "get" her, but that we have so much left to learn about our intricacies.

the way i saw it is this: we're always learning about people as we all have different sides that don't always come out in every circumstance (ie. we can appear to be very different people when we're in stressful situations). this situation is no different, you both just saw a side of each other I am guessing neither of you had seen in full force before. in this case, it was clear to me that you didn't "get" this side of her in this particular situation, and maybe the opposite was true for her. this side of people is always part of them so when you look at it this way it's not so much that you didn't "get" her before, you just might come out of this "getting" each other better now. it's not a bad thing, as you said we're always learning. "Getting" someone is a broad thing, as you said, this has just expanded your understanding, i think.

From some of these posts, it seems like ENFPs can be really harsh, critical, and mistrustful on the inside, despite what they show on the surface to the ones they trust most Am I just misunderstanding?

it's not so much that this is all brooding deep down while on the surface we sugarcoat it on the outside, but this happens sometimes when the worst of us is brought out...as in, when we have lost trust in someone that we likely idealized to some degree. I know for me i sometimes ignore the less positive aspects of my partner because, in a less stressed state of mind, they're not a big deal to me and i can be blinded by his more positive qualities. but when i became disillusioned with my partner during a rough period, you can bet i was suddenly blinded by is less positive qualities. It's a very extreme feeling, and a pretty scary one to boot.

It doesn't make it ANY less bad? I mean it was a terrible thing to do and her reaction is justified, but does my intent mean nothing at all?

not right now, no. her intent didn't really appear to mean anything in the moment of your stress, in her eyes (which is understandable) so you need to respect that she might be feeling the same way. it might not be right but it is what it is.

 

[fecaleagle]

OH EM GEE THIS IS NOT A CONTEST. Stop playing tit for tat. You will not win. You may win the argument, but lose the girl.

You might want to see the thread about when being logical doesn't make much sense. This is one of those times.

I just want to make sure we build this relationship with mutual respect and no double standards. I realize that I was completely wrong, but I still need to be treated with respect and equality, no? Otherwise what is the point of the relationship. Jeez I am not trying to win an argument, I'm trying to fully understand where everyone is coming from and trying to apply that to my gf.

 

[Tallulah]

I just want to make sure we build this relationship without mutual respect and double standards. I realize that I was completely wrong, but I still need to be treated with respect and equality, no? Otherwise what is the point of the relationship. Jeez I am not trying to win an argument, I'm trying to fully understand where everyone is coming from and trying to apply that to my gf.

I'm just trying to help you understand that it sounds like, "I know I did wrong, but you also did this wrong, so you are equally responsible here, etc." And really in this case, you are the wrong party. You really hurt her. I know you're trying to understand, but you're stuck on fairness.

I think you just need to take responsibility here. Equality doesn't come into play. She's not treating you with disrespect. She's reacting to the fact that you hurt her deeply and seem to mainly be concerned with making sure she knows that you're not FULLY responsible, because you were just mad at the time. She's not punishing you--she just realizes you don't really get why what you did was not something that is easy to get over.

I know it sounds harsh, but I'm just trying to convey it, NT-to-NT, in a way that boils it down to its essence. Not picking on you at all. I just think as long as you persist in your current line of thinking, you will not make any headway with this relationship.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

fecaleagle, I am not the only one who has notice that your words belie an unspoken (perhaps non-conscious) belief that your way (i.e., T) is superior to her way (F).

Fecaleagle you are making a terrible assumption, one that many intjs make. That other people are below them, in intellect, in the way they make decisions, in the cultural aspect and so on. You clearly need to get off the high horse.

This parent/child relationship between male INTJs and ENFPs chicks is getting sicker and sicker by the day.

If you want to save this relationship you NEED to swallow your pride... you are still letting your pride get in your way. Stop it.

Ohhh the memories of my INTJ…. He loved me soooo much… And, if you asked him, he’d tell you that he respected me, too. But his behavior didn’t always match his words. He loved that I could hold up my end of the conversation. He appreciated the pizzazz I brought to his life. But, he did NOT respect my Fi. On some level he thought it silly, childish, and desperately in need of a Te education. There was definitely a paternalistic/pedantic undertone in his dealings with me.

Anytime I did something that he interpreted as my Fi “flying off the handle” he dismissed me. This quick dismissal of my input. This fundamental lack of respect for the way I prioritized things. This paternalistic attitude that came through when he corrected me for being overly emotional. Well, you should know that this is why my INTJ lost me. You should also know that I see you heading down the same path.

While I think it is in an INTJ’s nature to be self-assured in whatever they do, do not let that J assuredness make you forget your own foibles. It’s not just that you, fecaleagle, don’t know it all. It’s that all people with your type, have predictable blind spots in their way of thinking. The INTJ is not the R-ight way. It’s just one of 16 equally valid ways of seeing the world.

You have only one shot at not losing her forever... at least as this ENFP sees it:

You can let her be your teacher in this matter. You can choose to see the unique / special / complementary gifts that your ENFP brings to your life… that all Fs (Fi’s) bring to people’s lives. If you do some hard soul-searching here, maybe you’ll come to appreciate that your ENFP has gifts that you can’t even begin to compete with. For example, no matter how mad she is at you, I doubt she’d ever make the boneheaded move you did in your original post. You can learn a lot from her in matters of the heart… if you allow yourself to be taught.

So are you up for the challenge? INTJ enjoy intellectual exercises like solving puzzles. I applaud you for coming to this forum to try to understand what’s going on with your girlfriend. This is a good first step. And, somewhat of a challenge.

But if you want to rise to the demands of an even bigger challenge, you will put away your INTJ self-assuredness and approach this situation with an intellectual humility that is probably very difficult for you.

In other words, you are going to have to be intellectually vulnerable to her. This isn't about fair. This isn't about taking turns. Such things fall under the purview of Te. This is about letting her take the lead in this area. This is about your publicly recognizing that she is naturally more gifted in matters of the heart than you. And, then letting her teach you how to have a better heart.

I don’t know if this is enough to keep her at this point. Too much damage may have already been done. But regardless, you will be a better man for it.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Thinking kills.

 

[fecaleagle]

fecaleagle, I am not the only one who has notice that your words belie an unspoken (perhaps non-conscious) belief that your way (i.e., T) is superior to her way (F).







Ohhh the memories of my INTJ…. He loved me soooo much… And, if you asked him, he’d tell you that he respected me, too. But his behavior didn’t always match his words. He loved that I could hold up my end of the conversation. He appreciated the pizzazz I brought to his life. But, he did NOT respect my Fi. On some level he thought it silly, childish, and desperately in need of a Te education. There was definitely a paternalistic/pedantic undertone in his dealings with me. Anytime I did something that he interpreted at my Fi “flying off the handle” he dismissed me.

You should know that this is why my INTJ lost me. You should also know that I see you heading down the same path.

While I think it is in an INTJ’s nature to be self-assured in whatever they do, do not let that J assuredness make you forget your own foibles. It’s not just that you, fecaleagle, don’t know it all. It’s that all people with your type, have predictable blind spots in their way of thinking. The INTJ is not the R-ight way. It’s just one of 16 equally valid ways of seeing the world.

You have only one shot at not losing her forever:

You can let her be your teacher in this matter. You can choose to see the unique / special / complementary gifts that your ENFP brings to your life… that all Fs (Fi’s) bring to people’s lives. If you do some hard soul-searching here, maybe you’ll come to appreciate that your ENFP has gifts that you can’t even begin to compete with. For example, no matter how mad she is at you, I doubt she’d ever make the boneheaded move you did in your original post. You can learn a lot from her in matters of the heart… if you allow yourself to be taught.

INTJ enjoy intellectual challenges. They enjoy figuring out puzzles. I applaud you for coming to this forum to try to understand what’s going on here. But if you want an even bigger challenge, you will put away your INTJ self-assuredness and approach this situation with an intellectual humility that is probably very difficult for you.

In other words, you are going to have to be intellectually vulnerable to her.

I don’t know if this is enough to keep her at this point. Too much damage may have already been done. But regardless, you will be a better man for it.

Thank you for the post, but it seems more appropriate to be a few pages back. I already have realized all of what you said thanks to all of the helpful posts. I have surrendered my pride. I have made myself vulnerable to her. I have told her from the bottom of my heart how I take full responsibility for what I did, and I meant it. I did not portray in my last few posts that my logic and thinking are superior to her feeling and emotions. Sure I was attempting to use logic, but only to understand where SHE is coming from. I'm trying to understand what is going on in her head, that is all. I'm not discrediting it at all, and I'm sorry you got this impression.

 

[Amargith]

Let's ease up on him, people

 

[Moiety]

For someone who doesn't want me to demonize them. Why say something like that

Because if you are smart and impartial, you can see the juice in someone's argument without let provocation taint your judgement.

Because just like "fuck you", it can have entirely different meanings depending on intent or depending when whether it's said jokingly or seriously.

Anyway, I'm tired. Nor do I feel like arguing because it's stupid. I wouldn't say you're a dick, except for the pair. You're right your comments will slide off my back not because I can't handle criticism but I don't think you're saying anything I need to hear.

There is no need here. I don't know you from anywhere, I'm not a part of your life. You don't need to hear me. Yep, that's true enough. And because of that you can choose to take something from what I said or focus on my way of directing anger and getting people to rise up against what I think is unhealthy.

I know you have good intention but the way offer criticism is very harsh- like a sharp knife entering into the heart.

Criticism is always harsh. And yes, my way of being an ENFP champion is harsh, but that's how I grew up. It's my way of setting myself apart of the condescending position of the spokesperson who wants to CONVINCE you. I don't want to convince anyone. Certainly not via my charisma. I want people to read what I say and make up their own mind, without forming an opinion of me. The delivery doesn't void the validity of the content.

 

[stalemate]

I just want to post something bolded to see how it feels.

EDIT: meh

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Thank you for the post, but it seems more appropriate to be a few pages back. I already have realized all of what you said thanks to all of the helpful posts. I have surrendered my pride. I have made myself vulnerable to her. I have told her from the bottom of my heart how I take full responsibility for what I did, and I meant it. I did not portray in my last few posts that my logic and thinking are superior to her feeling and emotions. Sure I was attempting to use logic, but only to understand where SHE is coming from. I'm trying to understand what is going on in her head, that is all. I'm not discrediting it at all, and I'm sorry you got this impression.

I'm sorry if I'm repeating points already made. And, I do want to let you know that I think it's absolutely great that you have come to this forum and asked for input.



I've tried to read every post in one sitting so if this question has been asked already, please forgive me for missing it...

Have you thought about showing her this thread? If my bf showed me the marathon efforts he was putting into working things out.... well let's just say that my heart would instantly melt... and that somebody would probably be getting lucky.

 

[stringstheory]

Let's ease up on him, people

Agreed.

fecaleagle (hahaha i just actually realized your user handle, gross), i think what is happening here is that there is a way that you are speaking that is very differently interpreted by us Feelers. anyone feel free to correct me if i'm wrong or misinterpreting your issue with the way he posts.

you guys tend to value efficiency in your speaking. I've noticed that the INTJs i know tend to be very choosy with their words, often taking a lot of time to think through what they're thinking in order to articulate their own thought process in the most efficient way possible (Ti).

Well, this can be very true for ENFPs too. we can spend a lot of time carefully choosing words, not so much to articulate what we are thinking, but what we are FEELING, and sometimes we invest a lot of energy trying to articulate these things in a way that is sensitive to the person we are talking to. I know that i've made a couple posts where i've had to re-write things because i thought "wow, maybe this was a little harsh, this guy is just trying to understand, i should try to soften this up a little bit".

the reason i (and maybe others) see a lot of pride in your posts is because you are dealing with this issue on a very intellectual level from your intellectual perspective. which is cool, you have a lot to offer through that. it's very much needed in these kinds of situations. JUST NOT RIGHT NOW. if i were this ENFP, the way i would start to let my guard down again is if i saw that you were trying your best to deal with this issue on an emotional level and maybe then follow up by dealing with it intellectually. Try to put yourself in her shoes. Try and actually feel what you think she might be feeling based on the situation and her reactions. You are on step 2 and trying to move on, while she is still on step 1 and feeling pretty bad. That's why it might come off to a lot of us as "why won't she just move on and forgive me? can't she see MY good intentions?" because you're kinda coming from your perspective of being on step 2. if that makes any sense, lol.

You have very good points, and there's always two sides to a story, but when someone is hurt it's harder to see their side. We already know why you did what you did (and she probably does too), so when you keep explaining yourself and your thought process like you are in your posts, it can come across as making excuses. The words you choose still indicate to me that you are approaching this from your intellectual perspective and, therefore, your perspective. I think if you try your best to get yourself into her emotional perspective as best you can, this will come out in your posts.

i hope this makes sense

Have you thought about showing her this thread? If my bf showed me the marathon efforts he was putting into working things out.... well let's just say that my heart would instantly melt... and somebody would probably be getting lucky. LOL!

THIS THIS THIS THIS

 

[Poki]

Thank you for the post, but it seems more appropriate to be a few pages back. I already have realized all of what you said thanks to all of the helpful posts. I have surrendered my pride. I have made myself vulnerable to her. I have told her from the bottom of my heart how I take full responsibility for what I did, and I meant it. I did not portray in my last few posts that my logic and thinking are superior to her feeling and emotions. Sure I was attempting to use logic, but only to understand where SHE is coming from. I'm trying to understand what is going on in her head, that is all. I'm not discrediting it at all, and I'm sorry you got this impression.

Try to figure out what is going on in her heart, my guess is that its driving whats in her head.

If she were to tell you whats going on in her head and its bad, how would you respond? How does she think you would respond? What is her flow chart of who you are telling her what you will do and how you will respond? This is a flow chart you created...this is an image of you...

Just my 2 cents.

 

[fecaleagle]

Agreed.

fecaleagle (hahaha i just actually realized your user handle, gross), i think what is happening here is that there is a way that you are speaking that is very differently interpreted by us Feelers. anyone feel free to correct me if i'm wrong or misinterpreting your issue with the way he posts.

you guys tend to value efficiency in your speaking. I've noticed that the INTJs i know tend to be very choosy with their words, often taking a lot of time to think through what they're thinking in order to articulate their own thought process in the most efficient way possible (Ti).

Well, this can be very true for ENFPs too. we can spend a lot of time carefully choosing words, not so much to articulate what we are thinking, but what we are FEELING, and sometimes we invest a lot of energy trying to articulate these things in a way that is sensitive to the person we are talking to. I know that i've made a couple posts where i've had to re-write things because i thought "wow, maybe this was a little harsh, this guy is just trying to understand, i should try to soften this up a little bit".

the reason i (and maybe others) see a lot of pride in your posts is because you are dealing with this issue on a very intellectual level from your intellectual perspective. which is cool, you have a lot to offer through that. it's very much needed in these kinds of situations. JUST NOT RIGHT NOW. if i were this ENFP, the way i would start to let my guard down again is if i saw that you were trying your best to deal with this issue on an emotional level and maybe then follow up by dealing with it intellectually. Try to put yourself in her shoes. Try and actually feel what you think she might be feeling based on the situation and her reactions. You are on step 2 and trying to move on, while she is still on step 1 and feeling pretty bad. That's why it might come off to a lot of us as "why won't she just move on and forgive me? can't she see MY good intentions?" because you're kinda coming from your perspective of being on step 2. if that makes any sense, lol.

You have very good points, and there's always two sides to a story, but when someone is hurt it's harder to see their side. We already know why you did what you did (and she probably does too), so when you keep explaining yourself and your thought process like you are in your posts, it can come across as making excuses. The words you choose still indicate to me that you are approaching this from your intellectual perspective and, therefore, your perspective. I think if you try your best to get yourself into her emotional perspective as best you can, this will come out in your posts.

i hope this makes sense




THIS THIS THIS THIS

While I am appreciative of EVERYONE'S posts (except the idiot that said I was psycho and wrong earlier with no explanation), your past 2 posts have been phenomenal. I do feel like my posts and points are being hugely misinterpreted but couldn't figure out why, but you nailed it. Here is what I've done: I've approached her with the best emotional perspective that I could, and did my hardest to leave out my intellectual perspective because I AGREE THAT IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE. But I have no reason to take an emotional approach in this thread. It will gain me nothing. I have to use what I use best to try to pinpoint where I've gone wrong and what I can do to fix it, and try to LOGICALLY understand my relationship. It's hard to explain. All I can do here to improve my understanding of myself, my gf, and our relationship, is to use logic. I am trying to take a multifaceted approach, but you are only seeing half of it so it makes me seem arrogant, set on my ways, and irresponsible. Does that make sense?

edit: I thought about showing her this thread, but it seems like it will just bombard her senses. I have written a very emotional and apologetic letter to her already leaving out logic, so I don't think it would add anything if she were to try to understand my intellectual struggle with it all

 

[stringstheory]

While I am appreciative of EVERYONE'S posts (except the idiot that said I was psycho and wrong earlier with no explanation), your past 2 posts have been phenomenal. I do feel like my posts and points are being hugely misinterpreted but couldn't figure out why, but you nailed it. Here is what I've done: I've approached her with the best emotional perspective that I could, and did my hardest to leave out my intellectual perspective because I AGREE THAT IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE. But I have no reason to take an emotional approach in this thread. It will gain me nothing. I have to use what I use best to try to pinpoint where I've gone wrong and what I can do to fix it, and try to LOGICALLY understand my relationship. It's hard to explain. All I can do here to improve my understanding of myself, my gf, and our relationship, is to use logic. I am trying to take a multifaceted approach, but you are only seeing half of it so it makes me seem arrogant, set on my ways, and irresponsible. Does that make sense?

It does.

What kind of progress has been made with your girlfriend since you started this thread? We like updates

 

[Tallulah]

While I am appreciative of EVERYONE'S posts (except the idiot that said I was psycho and wrong earlier with no explanation), your past 2 posts have been phenomenal. I do feel like my posts and points are being hugely misinterpreted but couldn't figure out why, but you nailed it. Here is what I've done: I've approached her with the best emotional perspective that I could, and did my hardest to leave out my intellectual perspective because I AGREE THAT IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE. But I have no reason to take an emotional approach in this thread. It will gain me nothing. I have to use what I use best to try to pinpoint where I've gone wrong and what I can do to fix it, and try to LOGICALLY understand my relationship. It's hard to explain. All I can do here to improve my understanding of myself, my gf, and our relationship, is to use logic. I am trying to take a multifaceted approach, but you are only seeing half of it so it makes me seem arrogant, set on my ways, and irresponsible. Does that make sense?

edit: I thought about showing her this thread, but it seems like it will just bombard her senses. I have written a very emotional and apologetic letter to her already leaving out logic, so I don't think it would add anything if she were to try to understand my intellectual struggle with it all

Ah! Okay, that definitely makes sense.

 

[durentu]

Hey everyone. So I've been dating an ENFP girl for 3 years, and our relationship has been as close to perfect as can be. ...

[long post about deteriorating relationship]

to the Op:

The best technique is to use the talking stick

1. One with the stick talks about one* issue/thought
2. Listener listens, and rephrases the thought back to talker
3. Talker clarifies until feels understood
4. repeat 2-3 until it's completely understood
5. Pass talking stick


I suppose it's stupid, but no one would argue that it's ineffective.


Also, check out Gottman's work on relationships and marriages. He can predict within 10 mins, with 90% accuracy if the relationship/marriage will fail. There are resources to his sound relationship house diagram and youtube lectures/talks.

I won't post the links, because serendipity will be a good thing.

 

[stalemate]

Well, this can be very true for ENFPs too. we can spend a lot of time carefully choosing words, not so much to articulate what we are thinking, but what we are FEELING, and sometimes we invest a lot of energy trying to articulate these things in a way that is sensitive to the person we are talking to.

This is 100% true for me. We've discussed it in another thread here, but it is sometimes overdone to the point that I project this onto my T wife. I expect her to be doing the same thing with her words but she doesn't. One word slightly off sends me on a goose-chase trying to get to the root of a problem with her feelings, a problem that sometimes just does not exist.

 

[Thalassa]

Isn't that vindictiveness? She would be purposely trying to hurt me as an act of justice, which is very similar to what I did to cause this mess. I have finally set aside my pride and written her a thoughtful letter, so hopefully she sets aside hers, if what you say is true

Yeah she might be vengeful. ENFPs can be vengeful. I can be vengeful. Don't let them lie to you and say that they're not. ...okay, seriously, some of them aren't but yeah....

Someone has to be the bigger person here, seriously. That's the only way this will end.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

edit: I thought about showing her this thread, but it seems like it will just bombard her senses. I have written a very emotional and apologetic letter to her already leaving out logic, so I don't think it would add anything if she were to try to understand my intellectual struggle with it all

Well, I completely respect your call on this, fecaleagle. You know the nuance of your relationship.

But for whatever it's worth, I suggest that your girlfriend would be most impressed if she could see the intellectual ordeal you've been willing to undergo for her and for your relationship.

Seriously.

I would be absolutely flaberghasted if my SO was willing to get hammered by a bunch of ENFPs (sorry if we were a little hard on you) to better understand where I was coming from. Even better, the idiot that said you were psycho and wrong earlier with no explanation, would actually work for you... ya know... 'cause you had to put up with nuts like that.

LOL!

I'm telling you... and you can blame it on me if she gets mad at you... if you show her this thread... Wow! Double Wow!

Well, let's put it this way. If she dumps you, I want to take you out for a test drive.

 

[stalemate]

Well, let's put it this way. If she dumps you, I want to take you out for a test drive.

I am seeing a new long con PUA technique evolving that targets ENFP women.