[MBTI General] NF and NT Romantic Pairing

[Thessaly]

I've dated a number of NTs, and they dont see relationships the same way NF's do. nuff said. If you can hang with that youre golden.

Conceptualists

 

[21%]

I think that NTs just express love differently. They don't need to be with you all the time and have that kind of emotional intimacy, but it doesn't mean they don't love you.

My dad's an INTP and although he sometimes gets lost in his own ideas/work/projects he is very affectionate and loving

Hmm.. but NTJs... The two ENTJ women I know have highly successful careers and terrible marriages

 

[Red Herring]

I recently stopped dating an INTJ for that very same reason: he had a lot going for himself and seemed to like me as well, but the fact that I constantly felt like I was very low on his list of priorities (that and the INTJ tendency to not show much emotion anyway) which seemed to go: life´s project - nothing - work - hobbies- buddies -nothing -romantic life let me to the conclusion that he either just wasn´t that into me in the first place or he was too cold for me to ever be able to be happy with things. Either one would have been a reason to end things (we had only been seeing each other for a relatively short period of time, so not much drama there).

My INTP ex (long term relationship) made it clear that his life´s project (politics) came before pretty much anything else in his plans for life. But in everyday interaction he always made me feel appreciated and was usually very warm and caring.

If this is more than anecdotal, the difference might be in that while the INTP has his head in the clouds, trying to figure out a new theory to explain the world, the INTJ is out there trying to conquer it project by project which leaves him with less time (and mental capacity) for human interaction.

 

[Phantonym]

...what could be more important than one's life partner?

Sorry, this isn't really directed personally at you, cafe, and I hope I don't come off as too judgmental here or anything but this line made me think about something. I've heard others express this thought before and my immediate response has been to argue with it because I've always thought that YOU are the most important. Whether you are single or in a relationship, with or without children. This is not about being selfish and having absolutely no regard to others around you, but I've always thought that by placing yourself at the top and taking good care of yourself as a person is the only way to take good care of others around you as well. Valuing yourself makes you open to valuing others. Maybe I am being too naive, idealistic and inexperienced but hearing something like this just makes me wonder every time.

 

[cafe]

Sorry, this isn't really directed personally at you, cafe, and I hope I don't come off as too judgmental here or anything but this line made me think about something. I've heard others express this thought before and my immediate response has been to argue with it because I've always thought that YOU are the most important. Whether you are single or in a relationship, with or without children. This is not about being selfish and having absolutely no regard to others around you, but I've always thought that by placing yourself at the top and taking good care of yourself as a person is the only way to take good care of others around you as well. Valuing yourself makes you open to valuing others. Maybe I am being too naive, idealistic and inexperienced but hearing something like this just makes me wonder every time.

I am not a particularly self-sacrificing person by nature, so that just didn't occur to me. I don't really consider myself at the top, but I do consider the well-being of each member of our family as being intertwined and equal.

Needs come before wants and when needs are in conflict, the person with the greatest, most urgent need comes first. If one person was consistently very needy, then I'd have to figure something out. That really hasn't happened much except when we've had an infant and an infant's needs (though maybe not wants) are always top priority because that is the nature of those little beasties. The needs of the children generally have to come before the needs of the parents, because children aren't able to care for themselves. The wants of the children, however, do not come before the needs of the parents.

Generally, if a couple is compatible, their needs aren't going to be in absolute conflict. If a partner expects their wants to be put above your needs, they probably are going to have to be cut loose.

For me, my relationship with my partner is one of the most important factors in my own happiness, so I don't really see it as separate from taking care of myself most of the time.

 

[Phantonym]

Generally, if a couple is compatible, their needs aren't going to be in absolute conflict. If a partner expects their wants to be put above your needs, they probably are going to have to be cut loose.

For me, my relationship with my partner is one of the most important factors in my own happiness, so I don't really see it as separate from taking care of myself most of the time.

Yes, I can agree with that.

 

[hybrid_rainbow]

I've known a lot of INTJs. They are all extremely bright and ambitious. They're dreamers filled with big ideas. And because they so often excel at whatever they put their minds to, they truly believe that they have the ability to make a big change in the world. This dream is what sustains them (just like how an INFJ might be sustained by her romantic relationship) and I've long learned that if you try to extinguish this drive, it's like trying to extinguishing the soul of an INTJ.

 

[Katsuni]

As several have stated, yeu were looking at NT-J's not NT's in general =3

As an NT-P, I view things as yeu work to live, yeu don't live to work. However, I do feel the need to be 'useful', or important somehow. To provide something in a relationship. That doesn't necessarily mean working, but it can.

If I sat around the house all day and did nothing, I'd feel horrible, I have to accomplish SOMETHING. It doesn't really matter whot, so long as I feel I did something of value, and especially if it was something my mate could be proud of me for, or would benefit them.

Admittedly, female NTP may be different than the standard male NTJ that yeu're looking at, but regardless of that, I'd like yeu to think of NT's as not totally married to their jobs and unable to be broken away from such =3

Some *ARE*. Most are NTJ's.

In any case, the relationship is the one most important thing; work is just there as a means to an ends; yeu work so yeu can support that relationship. I'd just as soon not have to work at all, but if I have to, I will. If it needs to be done so the relationship can endure, then so be it. We all make our sacrifices for a relationship... they don't come easy, and they don't stay easy. It takes effort, dedication, time, and sacrifice to hold long term.

Some are married to their jobs... I couldn't go out with someone like that. But alot of NT's are just seeking a way to help their lovers out as best they know how. And alot of the time, they'll reason out that 'best way' mentally, rather than emotionally.

Hope that helps somewhot, though I'm not sure it will :O

 

[Esoteric Wench]

That is very reassuring to hear; maybe it's not NTs in general but these two NTs in particular. They were INTJs. It may not have been the personality type so much as these two individuals and their maturity/level of understanding of life and other people within that type. Or maybe they didn't love me quite so much as I thought they did.

I think the disconnect you're noticing comes from the INTJ / ENFP pairing.... or at least xNTJ/ENFP pairing. I lived with an INTJ for four years and feel like I have some experience in this matter. Admittedly, I didn't understand MBTI back then like I do now. So I'd say some of this is 20/20 hindsight.

#1 - It wasn't career versus me that was the problem. I never felt like I had to argue that I was MORE IMPORTANT than his career. The problem was bigger than that.

Human relationships are at the center of my life. I am a successful career woman, but I value my relationships most of all. Not so with INTJs. So I came to understand that my INTJ and I had a disconnect in what we valued most highly.

I think this disconnect was accentuated by the fact that we both had dominant intuition supported by our rational function (i.e., T/F) with the whole J thing thrown in to boot. In other words, I don't feel this same level of disconnect with all Ts... just INTJs and somewhat with ENTJs.

It's not that I don't think that my INTJ loved me. He loved me as much as he could. But how he expressed that love and how he prioritized that love was affected by his type.

Over time I came to realize that while I adore my INTJ friends, I would think twice before dating another INTJ. I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that since relationships and connecting with people are most important to me (a very NF/ENFP position, btw), that I would need to consider carefully before knitting my soul with someone who does not put these things first.

It can be done (my current boyfriend is my ISTP Socionics Dual - well he's very even between N and S. So he's sort of like an IxTP), but I need to go in with eyes wide open about the disconnect I'll feel.

That's why I love coming to this forum. All NFs have a unique kinship of commonly shared values. And, NFs are statistically pretty rare. So on this forum, I can find others who share with me a desire to have deep, meaningful emotional connections with people.

 

[INTP]

putting work before other things is stupid imo, you work so that you can get money and live better, live more freely and have more options on what to do with your life.
Whats the point of working if you dont do the work to make your life better?

I think everything in life is finding the right balance between things. If you lean too much on the other side, youll lose the balance and fall there in that direction, going further away from other stuff..

 

[Esoteric Wench]

putting work before other things is stupid imo, you work so that you can get money and live better, live more freely and have more options on what to do with your life.
Whats the point of working if you dont do the work to make your life better?

I think everything in life is finding the right balance between things. If you lean too much on the other side, youll lose the balance and fall there in that direction, going further away from other stuff..

^^^^^^^^^^

I agree with INTP. B-A-L-A-N-C-E. Wisdom in terms of MBTI is about balancing the cards you were dealt and the cards you choose to play. Understanding the box you were born into and not let it limiting you too much.

So let me back pedal a little bit.

While all things being equal, I do think an INFJ is a better fit for me.... I'd take, in a New York minute, an INTJ who had balance in their life over a run-of-the-mill INFJ if he

- knew how to compensate for his weaknesses, and
- understood how to leverage his strengths.

INTJs and INFJs are both rare. But finding a self-actualized person (regardless of type) is rarest of all.

 

[Coriolis]

To those who have commented that they work to live (rather than live to work), or wish they didn't have to work: If you didn't have to work, or when away from work, what would you be doing??? Now, what if you could get paid to do that? For those fortunate enough to be paid to do what they would like to be doing anyway, "work" is more than just a means to a paycheck, it is a primary source of fulfillment and outlet for creativity.

Some of the NT/NTJ commitment to work may be of this nature. It is for me, at any rate. I am not committed so much to a job as to a profession, a field of study. Pursuing this is not just earning pay, or satisfying a boss or workgroup, it is developing my talents, increasing my knowledge, and allowing me to contribute all of this to some worthwhile goal. As such, it ties in with the idea of personal development that others have mentioned.

In this way, I do put my work on a par with relationships, and higher than most relationships, because it is tantamount to my own self-fulfillment. I am honest about this, though, and tend to have friends who hold a similar perspective. In practical terms we usually strike a decent balance, though, and often make more dependable friends and SO's than apparently more kind, gentle, and attentive sorts who fail to follow through when it counts. I agree that NTs, especially NTJs, tend to be like this, and as hybrid_rainbow wrote, trying to change it is "like trying to extinguish the soul of an INTJ." Better to leave us be, and just move on, for both our sakes.

 

[INTPness]

Here's my 2 cents:

I've had this issue with past girlfriends or even those I've dated. 2 NF's and 2 SF's come to mind. Here's what I couldn't get them to understand: I care about you deeply. I love you. You are very important to me. If you weren't, we wouldn't even be having a conversation like this. I wouldn't be spending this time with you right now. My career and what I'm pursuing in life are not *more important* than you, but it is still very important to me. Don't strip me of that.

Here is the hard part for me: I recall specific discussions with an ENFP and an ISFP where I told them that if I was to spend the amount of time with them that they wanted me to, then I wouldn't even have enough time to hold down a job. I'd just be at home with them all the time or going to lunches and dinners and movies and this's and that's. I might as well just quit my job right now and just walk right by your side, all day, every day. If we get married, we won't have any income, because I'll just be at home with you all day working on relationship stuff and nurturing you. That just doesn't sound appealing to me. They would both want to *skip work* to spend time together - like all the time. I mean, I get the idea of it - we enjoy each other's company and we want to be together. But, to consistently be able to do this = does not compute to the NT. I can't "bring home the bacon" and pursue my passion yet still spend 24 hours a day with you.

The woman I care about is a HUGE part of my life. I'd do just about anything for her! But, my passions in life are important to me as well. Why, oh why, cannot these 2 things co-exist?

The object of NF's affection is usually people/relationships. NT's, on the other hand, get much satisfaction from "designing" *things* (not people). Creating a business, pursuing a cause, etc, etc. When we engage in these things and dedicate ourselves to a given pursuit, it does NOT (necessarily) mean that we don't love the person we are with. We're just doing what comes naturally to us. And hopefully we are grateful and don't take it for granted that we are fortunate enough to have a woman/parnter who accepts and understands this. That is, if she's able to accept and understand it.

 

[cafe]

Personally, I've been happier with my husband working more hours than when he was working fewer. It's not because I don't enjoy his company, because I do. The thing is, when he is home a lot, I expect him to do domestic stuff around the house and that turns out not to be his thing so I get frustrated. I don't mind being responsible for everything except taking out the trash and mowing the grass if he's working five fourteen hour days and I'm not working. I do mind it when I'm working or he's working 40 hours or less.

Also I like money and I don't really want to get a job, so he has to work a lot and I appreciate him doing it because I know it's not fun.

 

[Kra]

To those who have commented that they work to live (rather than live to work), or wish they didn't have to work: If you didn't have to work, or when away from work, what would you be doing??? Now, what if you could get paid to do that? For those fortunate enough to be paid to do what they would like to be doing anyway, "work" is more than just a means to a paycheck, it is a primary source of fulfillment and outlet for creativity.

Some of the NT/NTJ commitment to work may be of this nature. It is for me, at any rate. I am not committed so much to a job as to a profession, a field of study. Pursuing this is not just earning pay, or satisfying a boss or workgroup, it is developing my talents, increasing my knowledge, and allowing me to contribute all of this to some worthwhile goal. As such, it ties in with the idea of personal development that others have mentioned.

In this way, I do put my work on a par with relationships, and higher than most relationships, because it is tantamount to my own self-fulfillment. I am honest about this, though, and tend to have friends who hold a similar perspective. In practical terms we usually strike a decent balance, though, and often make more dependable friends and SO's than apparently more kind, gentle, and attentive sorts who fail to follow through when it counts. I agree that NTs, especially NTJs, tend to be like this, and as hybrid_rainbow wrote, trying to change it is "like trying to extinguish the soul of an INTJ." Better to leave us be, and just move on, for both our sakes.

Well said.

An E/INTJ works to accomplish his/her vision upon the world. It's not our jobs, or even our career that we want to succeed. It's our vision.

If we put you above that, you may safely assume that you are one of the privileged few.

 

[Totenkindly]

I think my NF and I are over.

It was an interesting experiment, and I'm not adverse to repeating it.

The biggest difference at the end was that I tend to operate more from what makes sense and whether or not in the big picture everything fits together and we can make things work now (and it just seems that right now is not a good time for either of us, regardless of how we feel, and any relationship now is sort of hobbled anyway, with no promise of a workable future)... whereas he was more about deciding what he wanted and dragging himself over broken glass to try to make something with lots of contradictions work if possible. Lack of love had little to do with it ending, we just approach relationships differently.

I noticed that with an FJ in my past too. I wonder how much desire/duty drives F's relationally. I always end up not feeling worthy of their passion or loyalty.

 

[INTPness]

...he was more about deciding what he wanted and dragging himself over broken glass to try to make something...

Great analogy. I commend people for this unwavering approach. It's just that - well, these relationships sometimes end up feeling like both people are literally being dragged over broken glass. And that's just not fun. For anyone.

 

[JustHer]

An E/INTJ works to accomplish his/her vision upon the world. It's not our jobs, or even our career that we want to succeed. It's our vision.

If we put you above that, you may safely assume that you are one of the privileged few.

Yeah... asking to be placed ahead of an NTJs vision is like asking an NFP to put you before their values. Except choosing your values over a person doesn't seem to get any criticism.

I've been in a couple of relationships with NT men, and they ended when I realized that I would never be as important to them in the long term as their careers.

How did you decide that you weren't as important to them?

 

[cascadeco]

I think my NF and I are over.

It was an interesting experiment, and I'm not adverse to repeating it.

The biggest difference at the end was that I tend to operate more from what makes sense and whether or not in the big picture everything fits together and we can make things work now (and it just seems that right now is not a good time for either of us, regardless of how we feel, and any relationship now is sort of hobbled anyway, with no promise of a workable future)... whereas he was more about deciding what he wanted and dragging himself over broken glass to try to make something with lots of contradictions work if possible. Lack of love had little to do with it ending, we just approach relationships differently.

I noticed that with an FJ in my past too. I wonder how much desire/duty drives F's relationally. I always end up not feeling worthy of their passion or loyalty.

It's stuff like this that make me question being F. Relationally, I think I approach things much moreso as you describe yourself than how you describe the NF's. Perhaps it's the enneagram 5.

 

[the state i am in]

It's stuff like this that make me question being F. Relationally, I think I approach things much moreso as you describe yourself than how you describe the NF's. Perhaps it's the enneagram 5.

yes. and sp first accepts more distance--is more insulated and self-sufficient.

i identify with the complaint made against intjs to some degree (for myself). in fact, on the contrary to the claim about it being nt specific--my intj s.o. seems to prioritize the life partner relationship higher than i do (tho she's a 6w7 vs my 5w4). my highest focus is self-actualization and my own personal enlightenment. and finding a way to express this in its most complete and intense articulation. relationships are very important to me, and i definitely feel more in need of deeply searching, stirring, and profound connection with others more so than most nt types. but i don't take for granted that life partner is goal number one---although i'm learning what its real value is in a better way than i've ever known it before.

also--it's good to keep in mind that e5 types have boundary issues. istp and intp, i generally find, have the most difficulty feeling emotions. intjs have the most difficulty expressing their emotions. and infjs have the most difficult recognizing their emotions/owning them in a way that helps determine what is personally true for them. these avenues for e5 expression create a big avoidance of feeling in the moment when it feels like it requires action, decision, openness, etc. bc we can so easily feel overwhelmed, our wills, by the desires of others (ie responding to an i love you, talk about the future, prove it to me demands, etc).

the at times emotional unavailability of an e5 has to do with refocusing and re-centering one's own will and then also protecting one's mental independence.