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[ENFJ] The US's (as a nation) Myers-Briggs Profile is ENFJ (Huffington Post article))

ziltoid

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So no one else thinks Obama is ENTP? I seriously challenge anyone to prove he's anything else.
 

Liesl

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So no one else thinks Obama is ENTP? I seriously challenge anyone to prove he's anything else.

I can give some strong arguments for xNTJ. But first, why do you think he's ENTP? Or have you elaborated on that somewhere else in this thread?
 

Totenkindly

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I'll bet he author is a NF, and is projecting NF values onto american society. US culture is generally considered ESTJ overall, especially work/business-wise.

He says he is an ENTJ. But Te isn't always the best way to approach typing, think you do better using a Ji function to get at a defining type of things.

US culture is still changing, after many years of stagnancy. We had a decisively SJ approach for decades (the ideal man = STJ, ideal woman = SFJ), until maybe the 60's-70's, and the SP influences started to take root, along with some NF social influence and NT technology influence. Nowadays I think the Gen Y culture is very SP in outlook -- life is an experience, full of various sensations to sample and enjoy and participate in. Remaining faithful to the established standards is almost scorned in lieu of experiencing the new... and the experience is good in itself, it doesn't have to lead to a goal.

Our culture will never really be NF or NT, it's a minority of types to begin with; where N's come into play is in terms of catalyzing. We don't really live in boxes, so we jolt things out of their old molds and challenge status quo. This sort of life mode is appreciated by SPs.

It will be interesting to see what SJs become like raised in an SP culture, since that SP standard will become status quo.
 

ziltoid

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I can give some strong arguments for xNTJ. But first, why do you think he's ENTP? Or have you elaborated on that somewhere else in this thread?

Well I went through some basics but yeah, I think he's definitely an ENTP. He seems like a J in certain ways but his conduct and general behavior seems more P to me. Again he doesn't really take on any specific proposals as far as I have seen beyond vague ideas of what he wants that are good. He doesn't really seem to have any really specific core beliefs that I think Js would have and believe. He's more a mediator than a leader (which makes him seem NF), but I suspect that he puts all of his smart advisors in a room and basically challenges them all until someone else can prove him wrong. A typical ENTP (INTP I guess also in some ways) will argue with someone until they can prove him wrong, and that's why you'll see Obama emphasizing debates. You can also tell that Obama has no respect for stupid people, as in the case where he has given lectures on basic fundamental principles of economics and the history of the economy.

I think he's one of the more rare NTs that is more balanced and has a good F side so a lot of people think he is an NF. ENTPs can be idealistic too as some other people have noted. His speeches kinda convey more so the possibilities of what can be achieved, not necessarily what he has in mind. They're also general enough that he doesn't reveal much about his agenda beyond basic fundamental political beliefs. He only came out in support of specific plans when he was forced to, and even then he was easily flexible.

Also watch the last White House correspondents dinner. You'll notice Obama can read a crowd and give better joke delivery than Jay Leno :)

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYsGwLWqWI4"][/YOUTUBE]
 

Liesl

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Well I went through some basics but yeah, I think he's definitely an ENTP. He seems like a J in certain ways but his conduct and general behavior seems more P to me. Again he doesn't really take on any specific proposals as far as I have seen beyond vague ideas of what he wants that are good. He doesn't really seem to have any really specific core beliefs that I think Js would have and believe. He's more a mediator than a leader (which makes him seem NF), but I suspect that he puts all of his smart advisors in a room and basically challenges them all until someone else can prove him wrong. A typical ENTP (INTP I guess also in some ways) will argue with someone until they can prove him wrong, and that's why you'll see Obama emphasizing debates. You can also tell that Obama has no respect for stupid people, as in the case where he has given lectures on basic fundamental principles of economics and the history of the economy.

I think he's one of the more rare NTs that is more balanced and has a good F side so a lot of people think he is an NF. ENTPs can be idealistic too as some other people have noted. His speeches kinda convey more so the possibilities of what can be achieved, not necessarily what he has in mind. They're also general enough that he doesn't reveal much about his agenda beyond basic fundamental political beliefs. He only came out in support of specific plans when he was forced to, and even then he was easily flexible.

Also watch the last White House correspondents dinner. You'll notice Obama can read a crowd and give better joke delivery than Jay Leno :)

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYsGwLWqWI4"][/YOUTUBE]

I've said it over and over again on this forum, but I don't think [what people refer to as] his 'idealism' is anything more than a tactic to get people to buy into his strategies and visions. So, I agree with you there. Though his speeches are often eloquent and laced with idealistic language, it's not indicative of his core needs in life, which is what temperament is supposed to measure. It's a strategy for making him a more effective politician.

One argument, out of the many that I'm thinking of right now, is: the way he has gone about his life seems very NTJ, rather than NTP. Rather than seeing how things were developing and changing his life plans accordingly, he has always set a task and worked toward achieving it without as much regard to the environment. His preferred state seems to be working toward the accomplishment of a task rather than absorbing more information to decide what the 'correct' task is.

Enrolls at Occidental. Leaves when he realizes his interest in political science. Enrolls at Columbia. Completes degree there. Gains work experience at a couple of corporations. Starts community organizing. Goes to law school (even there, becomes President of the Harvard Law Review). State Senate. Senate. Presidency.

In my assessment, there isn't enough change in vision for it to speak of Ne. This exemplifies Ni. Even though the environment changes, the vision remains the same and the tasks (undergrad, job, law school) change quickly, they are building up to the same previously realized but slightly inarticulable vision. Gah, it is very hard to explain something so theoretical on this forum. I wish there were a diagramming function.

The first ENTP that's coming to mind is the late night comedian Jimmy Kimmel. If you look at his life path, it demonstrates Ne better. He knew he wanted to get into late night from high school onward but look at how he got there. (He was once quoted as saying that he wanted to wait for the opportune moment to get into television because he just knew that if it wasn't right, then he would strike out.)

Works in radio during high school (already dreaming of career in late night). Goes to University of Nevada for one year. Transfers to Arizona State. Drops out after two years without a degree. Works numerous gigs in radio and does several odd jobs (i.e. wedding DJ). Finally takes an offer to work on TV when he is offered 'Win Ben Stein's Money' and thinks the gig is right for him. Meets good friend Adam Carolla on that show and they decide to start 'The Man Show.' ABC offers him late night spot.

Do you see how that just gives off the 'Ne' vibe more? It's like there's a loose idea of where he wants to end up, but the steps along the way don't have to directly and obviously lead to that goal. The steps can deviate a little bit more and it's okay if the ending isn't exactly what it was imagined to be in the beginning.

Obama is pretty chill for an xNTJ though. I'll definitely give you that. But again, that outward behavior doesn't speak much to his real life preferences, in my opinion.
 

Liesl

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Again he doesn't really take on any specific proposals as far as I have seen beyond vague ideas of what he wants that are good.
I've seen NTJs do this. Could be Ni.

He doesn't really seem to have any really specific core beliefs that I think Js would have and believe.
Like what core beliefs? I don't think the judging/perceiving function has much to do with beliefs. It's mostly just about how you prefer to manage your life.

but I suspect that he puts all of his smart advisors in a room and basically challenges them all until someone else can prove him wrong.
Nah, many types do this. I do this all the time, and I'm not an NT. I have an ISTP friend that does this a lot too.

He only came out in support of specific plans when he was forced to, and even then he was easily flexible.
Ni. NTJs are often flexible with 'secondary' plans. What they're inflexible about is their 'master plan' for their lives. They need a goal to work toward, a vision to realize.
 

Neutralpov

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US population ESXX

In one of my MBTI books I checked and the US when it was written (I think it is please understand me II) says that most the U.S. population is E and S but split on the other two. That would explain why the US looks somewhat SP and SJ because it is 50/50.

There is an article on nations and their dominant personality types but I cannot find it at the moment.
 

ziltoid

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I've said it over and over again on this forum, but I don't think [what people refer to as] his 'idealism' is anything more than a tactic to get people to buy into his strategies and visions. So, I agree with you there. Though his speeches are often eloquent and laced with idealistic language, it's not indicative of his core needs in life, which is what temperament is supposed to measure. It's a strategy for making him a more effective politician.

One argument, out of the many that I'm thinking of right now, is: the way he has gone about his life seems very NTJ, rather than NTP. Rather than seeing how things were developing and changing his life plans accordingly, he has always set a task and worked toward achieving it without as much regard to the environment. His preferred state seems to be working toward the accomplishment of a task rather than absorbing more information to decide what the 'correct' task is.

Enrolls at Occidental. Leaves when he realizes his interest in political science. Enrolls at Columbia. Completes degree there. Gains work experience at a couple of corporations. Starts community organizing. Goes to law school (even there, becomes President of the Harvard Law Review). State Senate. Senate. Presidency.

This speaks more of ambition than a specific plan, I think. According to Keirsey all NTs are strategic thinkers so it's more consistent with an overarching strategy but I seriously doubt it had in mind all of these specific titles and roles. I don't really think it's a P/J issue although I will admit it seems more J like.

In my assessment, there isn't enough change in vision for it to speak of Ne. This exemplifies Ni. Even though the environment changes, the vision remains the same and the tasks (undergrad, job, law school) change quickly, they are building up to the same previously realized but slightly inarticulable vision. Gah, it is very hard to explain something so theoretical on this forum. I wish there were a diagramming function.

I don't see a reason why Ne or Ni would mean the vision should change radically. I think his overarching principles will never change despite his P nature. If anything, that has more to do with his age and the fact that people become more set in themselves as they age. We all have to work off certain principles and beliefs and as we age we are less likely to change fundamental beliefs at a later stage.

The first ENTP that's coming to mind is the late night comedian Jimmy Kimmel. If you look at his life path, it demonstrates Ne better. He knew he wanted to get into late night from high school onward but look at how he got there. (He was once quoted as saying that he wanted to wait for the opportune moment to get into television because he just knew that if it wasn't right, then he would strike out.)

Works in radio during high school (already dreaming of career in late night). Goes to University of Nevada for one year. Transfers to Arizona State. Drops out after two years without a degree. Works numerous gigs in radio and does several odd jobs (i.e. wedding DJ). Finally takes an offer to work on TV when he is offered 'Win Ben Stein's Money' and thinks the gig is right for him. Meets good friend Adam Carolla on that show and they decide to start 'The Man Show.' ABC offers him late night spot.

I think this is a bad example because the industries are completely different. An actor or comedian starting out is basically expected to live a chaotic lifestyle juggling different jobs while pursuing the dream. Obama's is more deliberate I will admit, but they are more conventional paths to success. I see what you mean though but I don't think it's a good comparison.

Do you see how that just gives off the 'Ne' vibe more? It's like there's a loose idea of where he wants to end up, but the steps along the way don't have to directly and obviously lead to that goal. The steps can deviate a little bit more and it's okay if the ending isn't exactly what it was imagined to be in the beginning.

Again this is exactly how I was defining Obama. He had a loose idea but he still bounced around. I would say working corporate jobs, deciding to go to law school only after community organizing, those steps aren't necessarily planned. Just because they worked out to his ultimate goal doesn't mean he had them in mind from the beginning.


I've seen NTJs do this. Could be Ni.
It's possible but I would think an NTJ would be more precise with specifics and how they wanted them to be implemented. Of course in the political sphere it's always best to be vague so it's good to keep that in mind considering all NTs would probably be purposively vague.

Like what core beliefs? I don't think the judging/perceiving function has much to do with beliefs. It's mostly just about how you prefer to manage your life.

I think the judging/perceiving function affects how quickly beliefs are spoken, at least. Judgers are more likely to make them realized where Ps are more likely to facilitate what is out there and find it difficult choosing a particular, specific path. As an ENTP, especially on that is a politician, core beliefs would pretty much be stricken to whatever is politically correct and yet vaguely similar to personal beliefs so they can be easily defended and used to rally up support.

Nah, many types do this. I do this all the time, and I'm not an NT. I have an ISTP friend that does this a lot too.
I dunno, I think many times relegate or defer, there is a difference between deference and actually probing people after putting in your own homework and thought into various topics. ENTPs love to look at a wide variety of things so it would make sense to read a bit on pretty much all policy so that you're informed and can make well-thought out big-picture mediations while actually substantively communicating potential problems with experts in the respective policy areas.

Ni. NTJs are often flexible with 'secondary' plans. What they're inflexible about is their 'master plan' for their lives. They need a goal to work toward, a vision to realize.

I would say the secondary plans could be considering one of many projects a P would work on. But what was his master plan? I seriously doubt he had a master plan to become president from the beginning, I think it just worked out that it became increasingly clearer as he progressed and took information through his experience (Ne) to realize the potential to do good in other ways, such as a politician.


I've noticed that your analysis relies primarily on typological functions so I will say consider the entire temperament itself, even if certain behaviors aren't considered. Obviously we also have to consider the incredible constraint that a politician is under and the reality that in fact, yes, what a politician does that we can see and here is in fact VERY deliberately manufactured no matter what type since this is PR 101. I think you make some good points and I have to admit he seems very close to a J but I'm still convinced he is a P.

Politicians can be tough to type though because I think, especially the smarter ones, know they will be judged by everything they say so they master their rhetoric and never jump off of it until all cameras and recorders are off (and let's be honest, for Obama that means not very often).
 

Scott N Denver

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He says he is an ENTJ. But Te isn't always the best way to approach typing, think you do better using a Ji function to get at a defining type of things.

US culture is still changing, after many years of stagnancy. We had a decisively SJ approach for decades (the ideal man = STJ, ideal woman = SFJ), until maybe the 60's-70's, and the SP influences started to take root, along with some NF social influence and NT technology influence. Nowadays I think the Gen Y culture is very SP in outlook -- life is an experience, full of various sensations to sample and enjoy and participate in. Remaining faithful to the established standards is almost scorned in lieu of experiencing the new... and the experience is good in itself, it doesn't have to lead to a goal.

Our culture will never really be NF or NT, it's a minority of types to begin with; where N's come into play is in terms of catalyzing. We don't really live in boxes, so we jolt things out of their old molds and challenge status quo. This sort of life mode is appreciated by SPs.

It will be interesting to see what SJs become like raised in an SP culture, since that SP standard will become status quo.

very interesting points! I had never thought about this, but yes very interesting.

In terms of our social/work/business structures, I still think ESTJ all the way. But perhaps our "collective psyche" MBTI is moving more towards SP...
 

TrueHeart

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In one of my MBTI books I checked and the US when it was written (I think it is please understand me II) says that most the U.S. population is E and S but split on the other two. That would explain why the US looks somewhat SP and SJ because it is 50/50.

But see Estimated Frequencies of Types - CAPT.org. E/I is about 50/50. Lots more J's than P's, and more F's than T's. The biggest difference is there are way, way, way more S's than N's.
 

AOA

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proteanmix

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Anybody posting in this thread in the DC area and hear people talking about him? I'm sorry, you all can conjecture all you want but that man is FE FE FE.

Yesterday, he went to Ray's Hellburger which is a local burger joint and took some important person from Russia with him. One of my coworker's friend's boyfriend was there. Firstly, that was pretty damn informal to take a diplomat to a burger joint. I've been to Ray's Hellburger and it's popular, but it's kinda greasy spoon. Not the first place I'd take a diplomat, unless there was a specific purpose to establish a certain type of vibe.

He's has randomly shown up at Five Guys all in DC and is very personable to staff. The thing is, he goes in himself. He doesn't send an aid or a Secret Service agent in. Presidential sightings are fairly common around here since you see the SUV motorcade and all the police cars and streets suddenly being blocked off. But where's the president? Just last week I was having dinner with a friend and walked past Ford's Theater and noticed a lingering crowd. I asked the camera guy what was going on and he said Obama had just finished taping a July 4 special for the troops and had caused a stir because he stopped to chat.

He's often seen around the Senate buildings walking around. This has been another Secret Service nightmare. Another recent Obama sighting had him accidentally getting off on the wrong floor at some building around here and instead of jumping back on the elevator, he held an small meet and greet with those around him.

I hear stuff like this frequently enough to believe he actively engages people around him and puts himself in situations where he can engage with people. I do not think an introverted president would willingly choose to be so visible when he doesn't have to be. I've also read multiple local bloggers speaking about how much he interaction he has with the White House intern staff (lowest of the WH pecking order), with contests being held between them and winners getting to have lunch with him.

Once again, what kind of president puts himself in more with the hoi polloi when he doesn't have to? I'm wondering if he needs to have contact with regular folks and seeks it out to keep his head level and his ear to the ground. It seems like he likes having regular conversations with regular people in regular places and his not walling himself away from contact. What does this indicate?
 

ziltoid

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stuff about obama liking to be around people

I get it now! Obama likes people therefore he cannot be a T! I don't think it's conclusive to say that this is evidence of Fe. A lot of people say that ENTPs are the most introverted type but they still thrive off social interactions and ultimately prefer to work in the world as opposed to their heads. The difference here is that he's the president, he knows when he has to be out and about and he can schedule things so he has control of when and where he is to a certain extent. This doesn't seem to be largely rooted in Fe. I think he could still be a T. If anything you could argue that he thrives off praise and generally positive feelings lobbied towards him. Let's be honest, most people in D.C. like Obama regardless of their politics. The demographics don't work against him either :p
 

proteanmix

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I get it now! Obama likes people therefore he cannot be a T! I don't think it's conclusive to say that this is evidence of Fe. A lot of people say that ENTPs are the most introverted type but they still thrive off social interactions and ultimately prefer to work in the world as opposed to their heads. The difference here is that he's the president, he knows when he has to be out and about and he can schedule things so he has control of when and where he is to a certain extent. This doesn't seem to be largely rooted in Fe. I think he could still be a T. If anything you could argue that he thrives off praise and generally positive feelings lobbied towards him. Let's be honest, most people in D.C. like Obama regardless of their politics. The demographics don't work against him either :p

I always like to ask people this because they never can produce anything. Do you have any proof for your assertions? Speeches are canned and written by speechwriters. I tried to provide first-hand accounts and more solid resources about topics than just my opinion. Like this one I posted in Obama's type thread Personality Profile of Barack Obama.

I know I'm about to anger some people, but a significant of ENxPs on this forum tend to overinflate their skills and abilities or see handful of common traits between them and a famous person and assume they share the same type. A cursory glance at the Pop Culture and Type forum with any inventive, well-liked, intelligent, and outgoing person typically typed as ENxP.

If people want to say Bill Maher or Jon Stewart are ENTPs, I don't fight at that. While there is a broad range of versions of any type, they manifest as classic ENTP style. I would believe Obama was ENTJ over ENTP, but he still more seems way more strategically diplomatic and conciliatory than I would ordinarily think an ENTJ would be.

From Obama White House Interns: Bags, Meetings, Unforgettable Experiences

...In this moment of desperation, looking up from her carefully balanced totes, she saw President Obama look over and flash her a big smile.

"The smile was so endearing because it was a sympathy smile and a 'I've been where you are' smile," she said. "It was the type of smile that said, 'I have been someone's assistant, I have been in the background, but if you keep working hard, everything will fall into place.' "
Or here
"Early Show" co-anchor Harry Smith pointed out that the president talked a lot about "being in the bubble" of the powerful office...

"He just talked about the loneliness of the job. And some of the loneliness, he embraces. He realizes that he has big decisions that he alone needs to make," she said. "But he misses being out among regular people."

These are not thoughts that I expect to be utmost in the minds of ENTPs. If I am to believe a good portion of what ENTPs say on this forum is that they don't need people, people are convenient things to bounce ideas off of. He's talking about people in the sense of needing them to connect with emotionally, not so he can debate about an idea.

And here
First, this is a normal guy.

I've spent time with a lot of politicians in the last 15 years. Most of them talk at you. Listening is not their strong suit -- in fact, many of them aren't even very good at faking it. [ExTP anyone???]

Senator Obama, in contrast, comes across as a normal human being, with a normal interaction style, and a normal level of interest in the people he's with and the world around him.

We were able to have an actual, honest-to-God conversation, back and forth, on a number of topics. In particular, the Senator was personally interested in the rise of social networking, Facebook, Youtube, and user-generated content, and casually but persistently grilled us on what we thought the next generation of social media would be and how social networking might affect politics -- with no staff present, no prepared materials, no notes. He already knew a fair amount about the topic but was very curious to actually learn more. We also talked about a pretty wide range of other issues, including Silicon Valley and various political topics.

With most politicians, their curiosity ends once they find out how much money you can raise for them. Not so with Senator Obama -- this is a normal guy.

This article is interesting because it seems like Obama's general MO of using casual social interactions and building rapport around is floundering and he's not able to get the "in" he's usually able to get to start making changes.
...Mr. McConnell, a five-term senator from Kentucky, has made an art form of backhandedly commending the president for his interpersonal skills — not unlike describing an unattractive date as having a “good personality.” Or, in the case of Mr. Obama, “an A-plus personality,” according to a recent gush from Mr. McConnell, who has also described the president as “fun to be around.” When asked for examples of “fun,” Mr. McConnell’s spokesman, Don Stewart, offered a cellphone call between Mr. Obama and Mr. McConnell, who was shopping at a Kroger’s in Louisville (“They chatted about entitlements and the debt commission,” Mr. Stewart said.).
...“The president himself has good chemistry with almost everyone,” said Mr. Axelrod, who pointed out that while Mr. Obama served in the Illinois State Senate, he played in a weekly poker game with mostly Republicans, “and not just because he wanted to take their money.”

Whenever I read about casual interactions people have with Pres. Obama, the first things people say is how accessible he is, how he doesn't make people feel like he's the president, he's personable....his normality.

If you want to insist he's ENTP fine, because we're both noticing Fe I think. The questions is, is it dom-Fe or tert-Fe? Hell, is it aux-Fe? I notice that the typical Ne-dom buzzwords aren't the first things people mention who have contact with him. But I have noticed very Fe buzzwords being descriptive of his personal interaction and communication style.
 

Aleksei

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It's ironic how NJs are the rarest even though there are more Js than Ps.
NJs are rare, but they're not as rare as they seem, because they have a tendency to test as SJ, or as NP.
 
G

Glycerine

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NJs are rare, but they're not as rare as they seem, because they have a tendency to test as SJ, or as NP.
Well yeah that is a given because CAPT had only a limited number of people in the sample, people mistype themselves on a regular basis, statistics aren't always the most reliable because of the "margin of error". There you go. :)
 

ziltoid

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Whenever I read about casual interactions people have with Pres. Obama, the first things people say is how accessible he is, how he doesn't make people feel like he's the president, he's personable....his normality.

If you want to insist he's ENTP fine, because we're both noticing Fe I think. The questions is, is it dom-Fe or tert-Fe? Hell, is it aux-Fe? I notice that the typical Ne-dom buzzwords aren't the first things people mention who have contact with him. But I have noticed very Fe buzzwords being descriptive of his personal interaction and communication style.

You make some excellent points. I think we've shown the limitations of functional analysis as you pointed out. He does seem to be excessively personable to the point that it goes beyond his own immediate needs, underlying agenda, or perhaps fun. I can see what you mean about his seemingly genuine interest, I believe Bill Clinton shared many of the same traits. But at the same time Obama doesn't seem to take too many things personal. He seems very easily able to brush things off his shoulders and move on, which we both know isn't necessarily indicative of a strong Fe (or at least primary function as is the ENFJ).

I will say that based the article selections you quoted Obama definitely seems more like an ENFP than anything else, but I am still convinced he's just an incredibly balanced T. I think his ambition shows this, his calm, collected nature, lack of emotional outbursts (Joe Biden's this is a big fucking deal). Of course it's certainly possible an F could have learned or practiced all of these traits so I am not going to definitively say I'm correct, obviously I just think I'm correct.

Regarding what you said about ENXPs over-inflating, yeah you're right as far as I've noticed. I'm not even 100% sure of my own type but I see what you mean. Trying to see yourself as the same if not similar to those that you look up to or admire. I have considered this possibility believe it or not. I am aware of my own biases.

Also the assertion that ENTPs don't need people is non-sense, even coming from their own mouths. Everyone needs people. ENTPs just use people more so as tools to an end I guess.
 

Amethyst

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I'm pretty sure that as a society it is an ESFJ
 
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