[NF] The NF Females' List of Deal Breakers

[cafe]

Your 'instant 'Aw Hell Naw! I'm out!'s' are what I would consider 'deal breakers.'

Your 'warning signs' are similar to 'rather nots' by my way of looking at things.

I also think, especially when it comes to a lifelong commitment, a person should be allowed their preferences, petty though they may seem to others.

Fifty years is a long time to sit across the table from someone who has annoying eating habits. It's a lot of basketball seasons when everything has to revolve around the game. It's a long time to have little in common to talk about. It's a lot of dirty dishes and socks to pick up and wash. Or to not have a dog because your partner doesn't like them. Or to have sex with someone you no longer find attractive because of their poor health choices or poor hygiene.

I'm probably a pessimist, but there is truth, IMO to:

Keep your eyes wide open before marriage, and half shut afterwards. -- Benjamin Franklin

 

[kiddykat]

^Cafe, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you wrote.

If I *knew* what I wanted at a young age, I never would've gotten effed up the way I did emotionally.

You are right. It's smart to have certain standards for which we will or will not tolerate. Usually for me- it relates to trait/character, as I hope to find someone who fulfills my dreams of finding someone whom I would want to have as a role-model for my (future) kids, if/when I choose to become a mother.

Excellent points!

Edit: Btw- my list is pretty much 'basic.' Meaning- it's pretty fundamental to share these qualities in any happy relationship, I hope.

 

[Phoenix_400]

I think it's a little strange to be getting up in arms about peoples' lists; I mean, we're all different, everyone has their own quirks/desires out of a partner. (and I'm not directing this comment at you, saslou - there are several in the thread)

Yes, keeping to these lists to the extreme, and to the letter, might mean the person will write off a very good person, but honestly most people make these lists from a combo of experience, as well as their own values and what they're personally desiring, and most probably do flex.

Lol. I know I'm being one of those people 'up in arms'. I understand personal preferences but I don't really get the list thing. My thing is, I know some people who have these lists and stick to them hard. They'll write somebody off based on things they've heard and comparing to 'the list' without ever taking the time to even try meeting the person. Guys really are the underdogs in the dating scene these days.

Example: A lot of women around my area always throw in stuff about 'gainfully employed' or 'has their own place', 'if you don't have these, don't bother me'. Economy being what it is right now, I decided to go back to school full-time and use that GI Bill. Get some education and it gives me a solid income and buys me some time until the economy recovers. Also moved in with some friends. My apartment complex was really going downhill and my friend's wife got laid off. Mutually beneficial arrangement.

I've been written off on these two counts enough times that I just decided to drop out of the dating scene for a while. Race was over before it started and seeing a woman throw those things on their list automatically makes me hesitant to even have anything to do with them. Of course, now I'm about to start a job making $30-40k a year and living with friends has allowed me to save enough money to get my finances in order and I'm closing on my own house at the end of this month. I'll admit, there's a vindictive part of me that just wants to walk up to some of those women and smirk.

Not that I'm bitter (or at least I try not to be, others will have to be the judge), but I do recognize the reality of the situation and when the deck's stacked against me. The lists kinda stack the deck against a lot of decent guys and as I said before, women already have fairly solid control of the dating scene...up until the mid-30's at least, then things seem to shift more into the guys' favor, judging by observations and statistics.

 

[William K]

^ Be glad you don't live near where there are real lists like this one

5 C's of Singapore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Phoenix_400]

Your 'instant 'Aw Hell Naw! I'm out!'s' are what I would consider 'deal breakers.'

Your 'warning signs' are similar to 'rather nots' by my way of looking at things.

I also think, especially when it comes to a lifelong commitment, a person should be allowed their preferences, petty though they may seem to others.

Fifty years is a long time to sit across the table from someone who has annoying eating habits. It's a lot of basketball seasons when everything has to revolve around the game. It's a long time to have little in common to talk about. It's a lot of dirty dishes and socks to pick up and wash. Or to not have a dog because your partner doesn't like them. Or to have sex with someone you no longer find attractive because of their poor health choices or poor hygiene.

I'm probably a pessimist, but there is truth, IMO to:

Keep your eyes wide open before marriage, and half shut afterwards. -- Benjamin Franklin

Maybe it really does just come down to a difference in viewpoints. Personal preference is what its always going to come down to and some people have far more rigid standards than others. I guess its hard for me to fathom since, except for a few exceptions, I'm a very 'go with the flow' type of person.

I just think its sad because there's some people that hold strongly to these lists, nix somebody for one item, and later come back around going, "Crap, I let a good one go over something so stupid." I've heard it directly, seen it, and heard of it happening enough times that its depressing. Great people missing good connections with other great people and it never even got a chance. Heck, ya might not find a lover, but you could end up making a good friend. That's gotta count for something.

EDIT:
As to the 'Aw Hell Naw's and 'Warning Signs', I don't even have a solid list of those. Its incredibly hard for me to put into words, don't even know if I can, but I'll try. Its like the lists just add a rigidity that doesn't work that well with all the variations life throws out there. I HAVE to at least give the chance and take some time to get to know a person first. Yeah, I look at behavioral patterns, characteristics, values, hobbies, signs of mental instability, etc. but none of it is set in stone. The biggest thing I draw from is, I dunno what you want to call it, intuition? vibe? gut feeling? that I get from a person. That 'vibe' (we'll call it) really helps me set if I want to pursue this person as a friend or romantic interest, what pace I want to go at with developing the relationship, or if I should just avoid the person entirely. Grrrr, its so hard to properly explain, maybe I'm just Ne-ing all over the place again.

^ Be glad you don't live near where there are real lists like this one

5 C's of Singapore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LMAO! Gotta love materialistic people. They're always good for a laugh.

Only reason I have a credit cards is to boost my credit score/keep it in the positive. Don't like spending money I don't actually have. Gotta have a car, not just a necessity in my neck of the woods, I like to go fast sometimes too . A condo? Gawd, couldn't do it. I grew up on 40 acres. I like my space. Heck, place I'm buyin' is going to feel cramped to me and its got 3/4's of an acre. I have to keep reminding myself that I'm in my 20's and its just a starter home. Pay it off in 10-15 years and use it as collateral to buy 10 acres or so out in the country once I'm a little older.

 

[Tallulah]

Lol. I know I'm being one of those people 'up in arms'. I understand personal preferences but I don't really get the list thing. My thing is, I know some people who have these lists and stick to them hard. They'll write somebody off based on things they've heard and comparing to 'the list' without ever taking the time to even try meeting the person. Guys really are the underdogs in the dating scene these days.

Example: A lot of women around my area always throw in stuff about 'gainfully employed' or 'has their own place', 'if you don't have these, don't bother me'. Economy being what it is right now, I decided to go back to school full-time and use that GI Bill. Get some education and it gives me a solid income and buys me some time until the economy recovers. Also moved in with some friends. My apartment complex was really going downhill and my friend's wife got laid off. Mutually beneficial arrangement.

I've been written off on these two counts enough times that I just decided to drop out of the dating scene for a while. Race was over before it started and seeing a woman throw those things on their list automatically makes me hesitant to even have anything to do with them. Of course, now I'm about to start a job making $30-40k a year and living with friends has allowed me to save enough money to get my finances in order and I'm closing on my own house at the end of this month. I'll admit, there's a vindictive part of me that just wants to walk up to some of those women and smirk.

Not that I'm bitter (or at least I try not to be, others will have to be the judge), but I do recognize the reality of the situation and when the deck's stacked against me. The lists kinda stack the deck against a lot of decent guys and as I said before, women already have fairly solid control of the dating scene...up until the mid-30's at least, then things seem to shift more into the guys' favor, judging by observations and statistics.

There are definitely some women who will rigidly stick to a checklist. It's pretty easy to spot those women when you talk to them, I'd think. There's no law saying you have to date them. Here in this thread, and the one in the NT section, it's more of a "something to do on a forum when you're bored" thing. I think most NF and NT women would be more inclined to see the whole picture.

I find that when I don't click with a guy, I'm more inclined to think in terms of not liking this or that about him, but if I click with him, the things that I'd ideally like to have become much less important. I call myself picky, but I'm really only picky about the important things, such as things that have to do with character, and of course, I have to have chemistry with the person...all the compatibility on paper in the world doesn't make up for that. Lots of "nice guys" fail to factor in the chemistry thing, it seems, and become disheartened, feeling they were rejected because they wore the wrong shoes or something. It's easier to write off a failed connection as "she's just too picky." (Not that there aren't picky women out there.)

A word of advice, though--sometimes both INTP and INFP men can kind of come across as bitter, feeling like the dating scene is more of a competition, or that women are users. Your posts have definitely been reasonable here, but the bolded parts made me sit up and take notice. Don't punish future potential partners for past partners' shortcomings/failures. Give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Phoenix_400]

^ Good post.

A lot of what you said corresponds to what I was saying about the 'vibe' I get off of people. I just kind of like to know what is I got rejected for if it doesn't work out. If its a chemistry thing, hey it happens. If its something else, I like to know specifics so I can look at myself and the situation and decide if its something that needs to be worked on. Lol! For some reason, that throws some of my female friends when I try to get their perspective. Its like pulling teeth to get info 'cause they 'don't want to hurt my feelings'. I'm curious as a cat and it gets me in hot water sometimes. Makes me jealous that God gave the cats 9 lives, while I've gotta get creative and risk the only one I've got sometimes

A word of advice, though--sometimes both INTP and INFP men can kind of come across as bitter, feeling like the dating scene is more of a competition, or that women are users. Your posts have definitely been reasonable here, but the bolded parts made me sit up and take notice. Don't punish future potential partners for past partners' shortcomings/failures. Give them the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks. I was definitely guilty of the bitterness thing in my late teenage years. After that, life got busy and dating just went low on the list of priorities. I've got a thread somewhere on this forum about getting myself back into the dating scene and got pretty deep into analyzing myself (Fidelia was actually a lot of help with that one). I make a strong effort to try and treat each new relationship (whether it be friendly or romantic) as a fresh start. Its not fair to punish someone for something that had nothing to do with them. Its a simple enough thing to do, but not always easy.

As to the parts of my post you bolded: Everybody's got a dark side. Having a feeling is one thing, whether or not and how you choose to act on that feeling is more telling about a person than the feeling itself in my book. It all comes back to Balance.

 

[Southern Kross]

I'm gonna steal a bit from others' lists

Must Haves
- a sense of humour
- a strong moral compass
- Well-developed empathy (eg. understanding, considerate, sympathetic, respectful toward others etc)
- emotionally stable
- enjoys good conversation and philosophical discussion
- intelligent
- intense and passionate (not necessarily overtly)
- broad tastes and compatible interests
- loyal
- affectionate
- takes the initiative
- open-minded

Would Likes
- a strong and positive relationship with his family
- creative in some form
- intellectual, strong interest in culture and the arts
- sense of adventure
- warm, outgoing, sociable, open
- politically aware
- likes sport

Rather Nots
- overly metrosexual, girly
- married before, kids from previous relationship(s)
- commitment issues
- deeply religious
- being vegetarian or a health freak
- somewhat overweight
- more than a couple of inches shorter than me (I'm tall - it can be a problem)

Deal Breakers
- non-sober druggie or alcoholic
- engages frequently in antisocial/self-indulgent behaviours (eg. constantly going drinking with mates, gambling, watching sport/tv/porn etc)
- history of infidelity
- hard-core conservative political beliefs
- superficial, self-absorbed
- judgemental, narrow-minded, bigotry
- arrogant, selfish, aggressive, obnoxious, domineering, argumentative, anger issues
- emotional problems, being overly clingy, whiny
- lazy, unmotivated
- emotionally unavailable or too reserved
- unyeilding and unwilling to compromise
- not family oriented

 

[cafe]

Maybe it really does just come down to a difference in viewpoints. Personal preference is what its always going to come down to and some people have far more rigid standards than others. I guess its hard for me to fathom since, except for a few exceptions, I'm a very 'go with the flow' type of person.

I just think its sad because there's some people that hold strongly to these lists, nix somebody for one item, and later come back around going, "Crap, I let a good one go over something so stupid." I've heard it directly, seen it, and heard of it happening enough times that its depressing. Great people missing good connections with other great people and it never even got a chance. Heck, ya might not find a lover, but you could end up making a good friend. That's gotta count for something.

EDIT:
As to the 'Aw Hell Naw's and 'Warning Signs', I don't even have a solid list of those. Its incredibly hard for me to put into words, don't even know if I can, but I'll try. Its like the lists just add a rigidity that doesn't work that well with all the variations life throws out there. I HAVE to at least give the chance and take some time to get to know a person first. Yeah, I look at behavioral patterns, characteristics, values, hobbies, signs of mental instability, etc. but none of it is set in stone. The biggest thing I draw from is, I dunno what you want to call it, intuition? vibe? gut feeling? that I get from a person. That 'vibe' (we'll call it) really helps me set if I want to pursue this person as a friend or romantic interest, what pace I want to go at with developing the relationship, or if I should just avoid the person entirely. Grrrr, its so hard to properly explain, maybe I'm just Ne-ing all over the place again.

Rigidity, IMO, is almost always stupid. There's no accounting for stupidity in either direction. Stupid is just stupid.

Maybe it's Fe, but I just have a tendency to, at least mentally, translate unwritten rules and vibes into written rules, principles. Or maybe it's Ni -- inductive reasoning. Like, this guy was giving my mom a ride to religious meetings out of town on a regular basis, but he didn't ever want to stop to let her use the restroom because he was impatient to get back. It wasn't a romantic situation or anything between them, but I would have a lot of trouble respecting the religion of someone who would knowingly allow another person to suffer when it was so easily in his power to alleviate it. I wouldn't hire someone like that to, say, look after small children, animals, or sick people. I don't think I'd hire him to be a prison guard.

So I could translate that into a 'rule' or principle if I wanted - like, "Don't put a person who shows a lack of compassion in small areas in a position that requires compassion, without direct supervision."

Of course, you'd want to make sure that your observations were accurate in the first place -- say he had stopped at a gas station to let my mom use the restroom a couple of times and each time she had chit-chatted with the cashier for half an hour or had come back to his car smelling so strongly of cigarette smoke that he nearly gagged.

You'd also want to make sure that there wasn't some kind of specific situation, like, he had to get to work or he was trying to make hospital visiting hours to see his sick mother, etc.

If there weren't special circumstances, then probably the guy is kind of a dick.

But of course use your brain. Always use your brain. It's not in there to just keep your skull from caving in, after all.

OTOH, you're a dude, right? Say you get hooked up with the wrong woman. Your odds of being really, physically injured by her are relatively small. Your odds of being killed by her are relatively small. Your odds of winding up with the custodial care of an unplanned child are relatively small.

She might hurt you emotionally and financially, but that's more reversible than, say, getting your face smashed in or getting dead. Paying child support is less demanding than 24/7 childcare.

IOW, it's possible you can better afford to let things ride and see how they go than a woman can.

 

[stringstheory]

Actually, i just woke up from a dream and sorta realized this, but i hereby amend my list to include soccer fans ONLY. i forgot that soccer is ok and that i'll maybe kinda sit down to watch it for a minute. also, the olympics...as long as you watch gymnastics/ice skating with me, i will watch whatever you want that is all.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

...the idea of a list seems so exacting and idealistic to me...it's just that I prefer gray areas, where a list seems so black and white, like trying to make a recipe for Prince Charming...I want to keep my options open.

Oh you're not an ENFP. No ENFP would EVER think like this.

(My workaround of this core ENFP value is that I understand that it's just a list. In other words, I'm not ever going to myself really cut off interesting options because of something as silly as a list.)

 

[stringstheory]

(My workaround of this core ENFP value is that I understand that it's just a list. In other words, I'm not ever going to myself really cut off interesting options because of something as silly as a list.)

Exactly this. I've already had to make amendments because no, of course i'm not going to strictly adhere to it 100% all the time forever always. But the thread IS titled "the NF females' list of deal breakers" so i mean...what else would the thread be besides a Te exercise? I should note that, like probably most of the ladies in this thread, it's REALLY hard for me to articulate why a connection exists between myself and someone else. it simply does. Making lists (AKA using an inferior function) is a great way to try and make some 'real' sense out of these ethereal connections.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

^ Be glad you don't live near where there are real lists like this one
5 C's of Singapore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Holy mackerel! Thanks for posting, William K. I've never heard of this before and found it VERY, VERY interesting... and surprisingly on point regarding our topic of discussion in this thread.

Even if some of the lists on this thread have been criticized for the occasional 'superficial' quality, I see NF values in almost all of them. I think NF women, like their male counterparts, seek authentic, deep, meaningful, emotional connections with their lovers and life partners. These non-superficial qualities are the true Holy Grail of NF relationships. In other words, all joking aside, the 5 Cs of Singapore is the very antithesis of the NF worldview.

BTW, I found another interesting article on the 5 Cs of Singapore in the NYTs. You can check it out by clicking here.

So gentleman, you think you've got it bad. Move to Singapore and see if you've got it any better there.

 

[William K]

also, the olympics...as long as you watch gymnastics/ice skating with me, i will watch whatever you want that is all.

Ok, those two I can bear... but please, not synchronized swimming

 

[stalemate]

Actually, i just woke up from a dream and sorta realized this, but i hereby amend my list to include soccer fans ONLY. i forgot that soccer is ok and that i'll maybe kinda sit down to watch it for a minute. also, the olympics...as long as you watch gymnastics/ice skating with me, i will watch whatever you want that is all.

Gymnastics and ice skating are the 2 best parts...

 

[Saslou]

I think it's a little strange to be getting up in arms about peoples' lists; I mean, we're all different, everyone has their own quirks/desires out of a partner. (and I'm not directing this comment at you, saslou - there are several in the thread)

Yes, keeping to these lists to the extreme, and to the letter, might mean the person will write off a very good person, but honestly most people make these lists from a combo of experience, as well as their own values and what they're personally desiring, and most probably do flex.

Although not directed at me .. I am going to answer

It may be perceived i was up in arms .. However, what people think and what actually is, is 2 very different things.

I aware people are different .. Which is why i enjoy getting different opinions. I don't want everyone thinking like me .. Where is the fun in that

If people choose to get defensive over a question .. It isn't my problem and i won't feel bad for trying to get another perspective on this whole list thing.

 

[Phoenix_400]

Rigidity, IMO, is almost always stupid. There's no accounting for stupidity in either direction. Stupid is just stupid.

Lol! It kind of goes with the old saying, "Ignorance can be fixed, but stupid is to the bone".

Maybe it's Fe, but I just have a tendency to, at least mentally, translate unwritten rules and vibes into written rules, principles. Or maybe it's Ni -- inductive reasoning. Like, this guy was giving my mom a ride to religious meetings out of town on a regular basis, but he didn't ever want to stop to let her use the restroom because he was impatient to get back. It wasn't a romantic situation or anything between them, but I would have a lot of trouble respecting the religion of someone who would knowingly allow another person to suffer when it was so easily in his power to alleviate it. I wouldn't hire someone like that to, say, look after small children, animals, or sick people. I don't think I'd hire him to be a prison guard.

So I could translate that into a 'rule' or principle if I wanted - like, "Don't put a person who shows a lack of compassion in small areas in a position that requires compassion, without direct supervision."

Of course, you'd want to make sure that your observations were accurate in the first place -- say he had stopped at a gas station to let my mom use the restroom a couple of times and each time she had chit-chatted with the cashier for half an hour or had come back to his car smelling so strongly of cigarette smoke that he nearly gagged.

You'd also want to make sure that there wasn't some kind of specific situation, like, he had to get to work or he was trying to make hospital visiting hours to see his sick mother, etc.

If there weren't special circumstances, then probably the guy is kind of a dick.

But of course use your brain. Always use your brain. It's not in there to just keep your skull from caving in, after all.

Good post. I think, at the core, our ideas on the subject are fairly similar. It seems to be down to our way of explaining things rather than a large difference in views(though there are some differences).

OTOH, you're a dude, right? Say you get hooked up with the wrong woman. Your odds of being really, physically injured by her are relatively small. Your odds of being killed by her are relatively small. Your odds of winding up with the custodial care of an unplanned child are relatively small.

She might hurt you emotionally and financially, but that's more reversible than, say, getting your face smashed in or getting dead. Paying child support is less demanding than 24/7 childcare.

IOW, it's possible you can better afford to let things ride and see how they go than a woman can.

A valid point, but I could give examples of women who actually caused great physical,emotional, and financial harm to people I've known(to the point of near ruin and/or required medical attention). Odds aren't as small as some people are lead to believe.
Anyway, I've gotten into the discussion of double standards on this topic in a couple of threads here in the past. I'd rather not go into it on this thread as I don't want to spin it too far off topic.

TO ALL: This has been an interesting debate. I've gained a bit of perspective and have some new viewpoints to process. I'm going to bow out of this thread before I sidetrack it too much. Thanks to all for indulging my curiosity. You ladies enjoy the list making fun. I'm gonna sit back, , and try not to interrupt.

 

[Moiety]

Just wanted to chime in to say that lists are unfairly demonized when you really think about it. There is nothing wrong about knowing EXACTLY what you want, nor is there anything wrong with being idealistic about things.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

This thread reminds me of one of my favorite scenes in Much Ado About Nothing:

One woman is fair, yet I am well.
Another is wise, yet I am well. Another, virtuous, yet I am well.
But till all graces be in one woman...
...one woman shall not come in my grace.
Rich she shall be, that's certain.
Wise, or I'll none.
Virtuous, or I'll never cheapen her.
Fair, or I'll never look on her.
Mild...
...or come not near me.
Of good discourse. An excellent musician.
And her hair...
...shall be...
...of what color it please God.

- Benedick from Act II, Scene II in 'Much Ado About Nothing'​

Seems like people have been making such lists for a very long time. I guess it's true. The world must be peopled.

 

[Queen Kat]

Must Haves

• Kindness
• Calmness
• Optimism
• Warmness
• Respect
• Tolerance
• Sense of humor
• Sense of adventure
• Handiness
• Male
• Ability to laugh
• Quirks

Rather Nots

• Unhealthy lifestyle
• Healthfreakishness (just leave it in the middle)
• Criminal record
• Always obeying the rules
• Much higher intelligence than mine

Deal Breakers

• Bad personal hygiene
• Addictions
• Cruelty towards animals
• Racism
• Homophobia
• Political views that are very different from mine
• Dominance
• Preachiness
• Boring personality
• More feminine than me
• Taking everything too seriously