[NF] The F Style Management

[copperfish17]

Here, I quote a good friend of mine:

I really enjoy reflecting on human conditions, as you might have noticed. A crisis in my school's symphony orchestra made me think about management these days. I have long praised the "F" approach to management as a pragmatic method to increase loyalty among the employees. To cut it short, it makes people want to come to work because they know they have an understanding boss who will appreciate them and help them achieve their potential.

The crisis facing the orchestra, however, is not because the conductor is harsh, incompetent or overly objective. She is anything but. The ENFJ conductor is an extremely gifted musician who happens to love her students (and is good friends with many of them), but one way or the other, we skip practices. She has threatened to "fire" those who skip practices more than a certain amount of absences, but she usually does not have the heart to carry it out. Like the ESTJ drama teacher (often described as her "counterpart"), she is charismatic and competent, but she lacks the intimidation factor. She's way too personal and loving, and doesn't make good her threats. Nobody takes her ultimatum seriously, and she ends up in desperate straits wondering why despite giving this orchestra everything, nobody really cares.

We get into the orchestra based on a meritocracy, true, but an extremely informal one. She judges based on her observation of us during classes (how well we play in classes, tests, etc), and usually, if she knows you're good, you don't have to pass an audition to get in. Luckily, we have a lot of extremely competent musicians in our school, so auditions are rare. If you're not already in the orchestra or if you're not recommended by a member (then she'd audition you), she won't know you, and you basically have no chance of getting in. Before she knew I was good, she didn't let me in without an audition, but after having me in her class, I joined by invitation. What's wrong with our orchestra, therefore, is not incompetence, tyranny, but a lack of an impersonal structure.

We have a lot of "elite" clubs in our school, including National Honor Society, National Art Honor Society, International Honor Band, International Honor Orchestra, Varsity Sports, Model United Nation, et cetera. I can't help but notice that members very rarely skip these practices, but are perfectly willing to skip a Symphony Orchestra (that's what it's known as) practice. We're not any less elite. We have played at important events and venues such as the Shanghai World Expo (and the audience loved us) and the Sydney Opera House. In fact, I would argue that we play at a much higher level than International Honor Band, and such. But then we don't have an "Honor" in our name. Nope. And once you're in, it's hard to piss her off so much that she'll hate you enough to boot you. You're in, practically, for life (or until the end of your high school career, whichever comes first).

We don't have a rigorous and competitive audition, nor are we pretentious enough to attach the "Honor" in our name to appear more glamorous (although that might be a good idea). The ENFJ has made the orchestra into a feel-good club instead of an formal structure. What she needs is to be more austere, not more loving. We need to have high publicized auditions, and I'm willing to introduce the idea to her as soon as possible. National Honor Society doesn't do much in our school, yet everyone goes to the meetings because the selection process is competitive and impersonal (doesn't matter if the coordinator knows you and loves you. You're not getting in if you don't meet their standards). It makes people feel like they've accomplished something if they're eligible to join this prestigious but relatively idle lunch picnic (which is essentially what it is), and they know that if they loaf around (such as skipping these meetings), they might get booted. Usually, personal relationships with the coordination won't salvage your place in the club if you do this.

This concludes my treatise on the drawbacks of the "F" style management, which, despite its many merits, have pitfalls. It's just that much easier if you tie your organization to people's egos.

(FYI, I'm a violinist in the said orchestra.)

Thoughts? What do you make of this?

Also, Antares and I will be documenting a reform plan to present to our wonderful ENFJ conductor. Any specific advices you can think of? ENFJ's, how much constructive criticism can you tolerate without being offended or hurt in some way? Are there lines that should not be crossed?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Aleksei]

I would imagine an ENFP in power would manage as a sort of a very sugarcoated version of an ESTJ, given that we would likely use our tertiary Te. The description above seems quite accurate for NFJs in power though.

 

[Jaguar]

The ENFJ conductor is an extremely gifted musician who happens to love her students (and is good friends with many of them), but one way or the other, we skip practices.

Whose responsibility is it to show up for practice? Yours.
Don't blame the ENFJ-or anyone- for your own shortcomings.
It lacks integrity.

 

[copperfish17]

Whose responsibility is it to show up for practice? Yours.
Don't blame the ENFJ-or anyone- for your own shortcomings.
It lacks integrity.

Alright, I should have clarified this. Many apologies.

I myself have never skipped practices. (Remember I am quoting a friend here who's writing from HER perspective, not mine. Also, she was generalizing when she said "we".) I share a close relationship with the ENFJ conductor and she knows I'm one of the most reliable members in the orchestra. In fact she has once told me (quite recently too) that: "You're one my favorites because you never skip [practices]."

The problem I'm trying to address here is that many members DO skip practices, coming up with all these excuses. I'm just pondering on how I can assist her in making this orchestra more, well, functional.

A tweak or two in the system might solve the problem with skipping. This is what I ponder.

 

[Jaguar]

I myself have never skipped practices. (Remember I am quoting a friend here who's writing from HER perspective, not mine. Also, she was generalizing when she said "we".) I share a close relationship with the ENFJ conductor and she knows I'm one of the most reliable members in the orchestra. In fact she has once told me (quite recently too) that: "You're one my favorites because you never skip [practices]."

The problem I'm trying to address here is that many members DO skip practices, coming up with all these excuses. I'm just pondering on how I can assist her in making this orchestra more, well, functional.

Functional? Gee, your overwhelming passion and intensity is knocking me off my feet. Lol.

Yes, I know you quoted your friend.

Look, did it ever occur to you to come at this from another angle?
If you are a committed member of the orchestra and you value that orchestra then why don't you two do something about it?

Are you legs broken?
Is your mouth broken?

Are both of you utterly incapable of going to other members who are slacking off and putting a flame under their asses?
I assure you, if that orchestra means enough to you then you will do it. Come hell or high water.

If you think it's because an ENFJ "lacks impersonal structure" or whatever nonsense was flying out of your friend's mouth, you are mistaken.
If the people who are not showing up lack the passion to be in that orchestra, then you know what?
They shouldn't be there.

Let's see how far you are willing to go for something you believe in.
Maybe the problem is, you don't believe in it at all.
If all you want to do is "assist" someone in making something "functional," then perhaps you are no different from the others who lack the passion to even show up.

Don't pass the buck to the conductor.
If you want change, then you better be prepared to be the vehicle.

The choice is yours.

 

[Rebe]

She's talking about high school and you are talking about integrity.

Kids, when you give them an inch, they take a whole mile.

I had an ESTJ high school teacher and she intimidated everyone. She was downright scary. There was this one student who was always late because of his bus schedule and it was the first class in the morning and at one point, she publicly humiliated him for being late. Poor boy. She asked him to come up and everyone to clap because he was actually on time that day, heavy heavy sarcasm.

For an ENFJ - hmm - once a teacher establishes herself as being too nice, it's hard to go back. Kicking the ones who skip the most is an option - and the others will shape up if they need it in their high school transcript or ... they enjoy it ...

She will probably be offended and might not be able to carry out the plan since it's not her plan, you know. It'd be like 'pressure to perform', it wouldn't be something she could do naturally.

I think what she could do simply is inform the kids that after a certain amount of absences, they wouldn't receive credit for being part of the orchestra. In high school, a lot of kids join groups just to get it on their transcript/resume to get into good colleges, so that's a point.

I'd say mention it casually to her - but don't make it a formal plan because then, she'd be forced to take action even though she'd feel uncomfortable just to save face in front of the two of you - ...

 

[Jaguar]

She's talking about high school and you are talking about integrity.

You can be in high school and have integrity.

 

[Aleksei]

Nonsense.

 

[Orangey]

Well I kind of agree with Jaguar that it's more preposterous to approach the teacher with a preconceived "plan" for HER to get kids to come to practice more often when, if it mattered to them that much in the first place, they could have done something themselves to fix the problem. It seems like a shrugging off of responsibility (not to say that it's their responsibility in the first place...it certainly is not...but if they see things as being such a problem that they are personally concerning themselves with it, then they need to try and solve the problem themselves. Otherwise leave it alone, or let the teacher figure something out on her own.)

 

[Hate]

This concludes my treatise on the drawbacks of the "F" style management

Your high school friend concluded an entire treatise on “F” style management by the analysis of a high school orchestra? Wow.. this statement is laughable.

Coming from an ENFJ standpoint I would approach the situation as Jaguar described. Your conductor teacher sounds cool as hell and I would have a huge problem with my classmates if they were disrespecting her like this.

I know you’re not the one that disrespects her and misses class, but why don’t you stand up for her if your classmates are doing this? (Especially since you say you like her and you have an established rapport with her.)

People in high school do lack integrity, so that’s why this is the best approach to take.

You and your friend need to put your classmates in ‘check’ and be the ones to demonstrate integrity. (assuming you are strong enough to do so)

A formal plan definitely won’t work, not only because you’re talking about high school. But also because that’s probably the worst way to approach an ENFJ.

 

[ElizaJane]

Thoughts? What do you make of this?

Also, Antares and I will be documenting a reform plan to present to our wonderful ENFJ conductor. Any specific advices you can think of? ENFJ's, how much constructive criticism can you tolerate without being offended or hurt in some way? Are there lines that should not be crossed?

Thanks in advance!

Wow, I see a lot of myself in the conductor. A few years ago, I was placed in charge of my department after my boss left. I hate it. I'm a total pushover. My boss was always respected by her employees, but she still ran a tight ship. No one was late, and no one slacked off. Now that I'm in charge, I feel like it's a freakin circus. Every day this one girl calls in sick or goes home early, assignments are late or come in unedited, etc. It results in me taking on more work to make up for the other employees slacking off. And I can't bring myself to do anything about it. Whenever I have tried to keep people in line, they give me attitude and treat me strangely for a few days and gang up on me, and it's not worth the stress that comes with it.

One thing I know is this: If a couple of the employees came to me and said they understood what was going on and they wanted to help me, I would definitely listen. It would be a refreshing change from dealing with the employees that are taking advantage of me.

If I were the conductor and you and your friend presented me with a specific plan, such as a list of consequences for missing practices, I would probably implement it. Honestly, though, I would feel more comfortable if I could announce it like, "I got some helpful feedback about how I'm running the orchestra, and we're going to change things." And then I'd pass out a sheet with the new rules. Because someone else came up with them, I'd be much more likely to stick with it and not let people get away with so much anymore.

(Yeah, I know I'm a terrible manager. Don't worry, I'm looking for a new job.)

 

[Hate]

The description above seems quite accurate for NFJs in power though.

Correction: "weaker" NFJs in power... Have you ever met a strong ENFJ in power? this would never happen. Don't lump all of us into this category now.

 

[sculpting]

I guess my perspective-speaking from my baby ESTJ-is that having a group devoted to performance and skill become a social club annoys the shit out of me in the first place. I guess I value the beauty and artistic merit of the music enough, that I would become a driving bitch to make sure it is done well.

The objective of the group is to train young musicians into top notch performers and to develop the group into a team that functions in a concerted manner to maximize the final output-musical performance. It has to run as a tight ship with top talent and devoted members.

If the organization is really that good^^and people have to be skilled to enter, then there will be others waiting to replace them, should they fuck up and not show up for practice.

But my guess is that her objective is more about group harmony, happiness and inclusion perhaps. Thus becoming stricter in the rules will be counter to harmony.

Perhaps before presenting your plan-stress how the issues being experienced are really hurting the entire group and disrupting the harmony, teamwork and productivity of the group.

 

[Hate]

Perhaps before presenting your plan-stress how the issues being experienced are really hurting the entire group and disrupting the harmony, teamwork and productivity of the group.

^That’s pretty good… You know how to hit those ENFJ trigger points don’t you?

If you do present a plan though, the key to your plan will simply be being able to speak to her in her feeler language. Using phrases as Orobas stated above. She sounds like a pretty high feeler.. So you gotta make sure you can speak her feeler language or find someone who can.

Since you already have established rapport with her, this is definitely a plus. Because ENFJs will listen more to someone they already have a good rapport with.

ENFJs are all about growth and self-improvement. So cleverly point out how the results of your plan will help make you better students and promote growth. ENFJs respond much better to encouragement than criticism. So you also have to intertwine encouragement along with your constructive criticism. Sound enthusiastic about how you and your friend will be willing to be part of the plan.

Make sure you validate what she has already done too, but there is still room for you to grow. You gotta hit that validation button. Be sure you also make some bigger picture and future points too as opposed to focusing on the present and presenting a logical plan of action. Talk about the future and paint a bigger picture of where you see the orchestra going if changes are made.

Carefully point out how she is not being taken seriously and even throw in the word “we.” Say that “we” are not being taken seriously so she doesn’t feel singled out. ENFJs don’t like to be misunderstood or not taken seriously, so hopefully that’ll spark the ENFJ authority in her to not be such a pushover.

Stress the people issues and don’t make your plan sound impersonal or too cold and logical. She doesn’t sound like the kind of ENFJ that will operate too well in a rigid tension filled competition environment. So if you present your competition idea to her make sure you promote the idea of fair competition and make it sound more fun than tension filled. Explain how a fair competition could be fun and will benefit everyone and promote growth.

ENFJ's, how much constructive criticism can you tolerate without being offended or hurt in some way?

Entirely depends on who the person dishing out the constructive criticism is. If it is someone that we respect then we can take as much as they can dish. If it is someone that we don't respect then we will either just disregard the advice or probably go on the defensive. Constructive criticism from a stranger can go either way depending on the impression we get from them.

 

[Jaguar]

I guess my perspective-speaking from my baby ESTJ-is that having a group devoted to performance and skill become a social club annoys the shit out of me in the first place.

This isn't about you, puppy.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Although I commend your desire to be helpful, I find it extremely presumptuous to present your teacher with a "plan" to improve her "management style". Sharing your thoughts is one thing; drawing up some sort of "how to" manual for her telling her how to do her job is insulting at best and humiliating at worst. Have you actually been a manager, a teacher, a leader - coordinated a group of disparate individuals?

It's easy when one is not in a position of authority to sit back and take a critical stance; why don't you use that energy to encourage your peers to take the orchestra as seriously as you do?

She no doubt is fully aware she is being taken advantage of, and my advice to her is to set rules and follow through. Period. She can still be a loving, compassionate, inspirational leader even with defined guidelines. Until she understands and embraces that herself, she will be continually walked over, regardless of the "plans".

You can only own what you own.

 

[Amargith]

As kids, however, they can assist by using peer-pressure in a good way for once. Kids, especially in high school are incredibly susceptible to that. If the rest of the group comes down on the late-comers, and makes it clear that that just 'aint cool, man' alttongue, you might be able to support the wonderful teacher in getting the order she needs to make it a fantastic project, without undermining her authority.

 

[copperfish17]

Jaguar:

Are both of you utterly incapable of going to other members who are slacking off and putting a flame under their asses?

I’ve tried three different methods with a couple of members (at least 8, I believe) in our orchestra. 1) Reasoning 2) criticizing/lecturing and 3) guilt-tripping (talk about having to stoop low…). None of those methods worked.

Those who do have the temerity to skip don’t listen to me because 1) they know that I don’t have the authority to penalize them and 2) my conductor does have the authority but doesn’t penalize them.

They just don’t care. What am I supposed to do, hunt all of them down before each practice and physically drag them to class? Yes, like you said, people can be in high school and still have integrity. But most don’t.

If you think it's because an ENFJ "lacks impersonal structure" or whatever nonsense was flying out of your friend's mouth, you are mistaken.

Are you saying that implementing solid consequences won’t help keep absence rates down? A more impersonal structure CAN help here, in my opinion.

If the people who are not showing up lack the passion to be in that orchestra, then you know what?
They shouldn't be there.

Firing people isn’t really an option here because we have very few members to begin with. We need to look for other ways to penalize people.

Let's see how far you are willing to go for something you believe in. Maybe the problem is, you don't believe in it at all.
If all you want to do is "assist" someone in making something "functional," then perhaps you are no different from the others who lack the passion to even show up.

That’s terrible logic. Also, it makes me think that you do not understand my intentions behind this thread at all.

Don't pass the buck to the conductor.

Is there NOTHING she can do to make things better? I think not. I've tried talking to other members. It failed. Now I am trying to help my conductor implement a less skipping-prone system in our orchestra. I AM trying to help. I guess you just don't agree with my methods, which is perfectly fine.

 

[copperfish17]

Rebe:

She's talking about high school and you are talking about integrity.

Kids, when you give them an inch, they take a whole mile.

I, also, have no idea how this thread almost turned into a discussion about my integrity. Or lack thereof.

I had an ESTJ high school teacher and she intimidated everyone. She was downright scary. There was this one student who was always late because of his bus schedule and it was the first class in the morning and at one point, she publicly humiliated him for being late. Poor boy. She asked him to come up and everyone to clap because he was actually on time that day, heavy heavy sarcasm.

Did people make an effort not to be late to her class after that day?

(Jaguar, this is the point I am trying to make.)

She will probably be offended and might not be able to carry out the plan since it's not her plan, you know. It'd be like 'pressure to perform', it wouldn't be something she could do naturally.

I think what she could do simply is inform the kids that after a certain amount of absences, they wouldn't receive credit for being part of the orchestra. In high school, a lot of kids join groups just to get it on their transcript/resume to get into good colleges, so that's a point.

I'd say mention it casually to her - but don't make it a formal plan because then, she'd be forced to take action even though she'd feel uncomfortable just to save face in front of the two of you - ...

Thank you Rebe. You bring up excellent points. I will note everything you just wrote here.

 

[copperfish17]

You and your friend need to put your classmates in ‘check’ and be the ones to demonstrate integrity. (assuming you are strong enough to do so).

See what I wrote to Jaguar about how I tried to talk to other members before.

A formal plan definitely won’t work, not only because you’re talking about high school. But also because that’s probably the worst way to approach an ENFJ.

This is a great point. Thank you.

Wow, I see a lot of myself in the conductor. A few years ago, I was placed in charge of my department after my boss left. I hate it. I'm a total pushover. My boss was always respected by her employees, but she still ran a tight ship. No one was late, and no one slacked off. Now that I'm in charge, I feel like it's a freakin circus. Every day this one girl calls in sick or goes home early, assignments are late or come in unedited, etc. It results in me taking on more work to make up for the other employees slacking off. And I can't bring myself to do anything about it. Whenever I have tried to keep people in line, they give me attitude and treat me strangely for a few days and gang up on me, and it's not worth the stress that comes with it.

Nice example demonstrating the necessity of a more impersonal system. Thank you, ElizaJane.

If I were the conductor and you and your friend presented me with a specific plan, such as a list of consequences for missing practices, I would probably implement it. Honestly, though, I would feel more comfortable if I could announce it like, "I got some helpful feedback about how I'm running the orchestra, and we're going to change things." And then I'd pass out a sheet with the new rules. Because someone else came up with them, I'd be much more likely to stick with it and not let people get away with so much anymore.

(Yeah, I know I'm a terrible manager. Don't worry, I'm looking for a new job.)

Wow, this REALLY helped. EXACTLY the kind of advices I was looking for. Thank you so, so much!

If you do present a plan though, the key to your plan will simply be being able to speak to her in her feeler language. Using phrases as Orobas stated above. She sounds like a pretty high feeler.. So you gotta make sure you can speak her feeler language or find someone who can.

Since you already have established rapport with her, this is definitely a plus. Because ENFJs will listen more to someone they already have a good rapport with.

ENFJs are all about growth and self-improvement. So cleverly point out how the results of your plan will help make you better students and promote growth. ENFJs respond much better to encouragement than criticism. So you also have to intertwine encouragement along with your constructive criticism. Sound enthusiastic about how you and your friend will be willing to be part of the plan.

Make sure you validate what she has already done too, but there is still room for you to grow. You gotta hit that validation button. Be sure you also make some bigger picture and future points too as opposed to focusing on the present and presenting a logical plan of action. Talk about the future and paint a bigger picture of where you see the orchestra going if changes are made.

Carefully point out how she is not being taken seriously and even throw in the word “we.” Say that “we” are not being taken seriously so she doesn’t feel singled out. ENFJs don’t like to be misunderstood or not taken seriously, so hopefully that’ll spark the ENFJ authority in her to not be such a pushover.

Stress the people issues and don’t make your plan sound impersonal or too cold and logical. She doesn’t sound like the kind of ENFJ that will operate too well in a rigid tension filled competition environment. So if you present your competition idea to her make sure you promote the idea of fair competition and make it sound more fun than tension filled. Explain how a fair competition could be fun and will benefit everyone and promote growth.

...

Entirely depends on who the person dishing out the constructive criticism is. If it is someone that we respect then we can take as much as they can dish. If it is someone that we don't respect then we will either just disregard the advice or probably go on the defensive. Constructive criticism from a stranger can go either way depending on the impression we get from them.

Again, EXACTLY the kind of advices I was looking for. Thank you very, VERY much. I really appreciate it. Truly.

Although I commend your desire to be helpful, I find it extremely presumptuous you would present your teacher with a "plan" to improve her "management style". Sharing your thoughts is one thing; drawing up some sort of "how to" manual for her telling her how to do her job is insulting at best and humiliating at worst.

I see your point, thank you for warning me about this. All I wanted to achieve by presenting my conductor with a plan was to suggest (what I think are) good reforms to make. I understand I need to tread carefully. Thanks again for bringing this to my attention.

As kids, however, they can assist by using peer-pressure in a good way for once. Kids, especially in high school are incredibly susceptible to that. If the rest of the group comes down on the late-comers, and makes it clear that that just 'aint cool, man' alttongue, you might be able to support the wonderful teacher in getting the order she needs to make it a fantastic project, without undermining her authority.

See what I wrote to Jaguar about how I tried to talk to other members before.