User Tag List

First 123 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 26

  1. #11
    Member ElizaJane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    79

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post

    Thoughts? What do you make of this?

    Also, Antares and I will be documenting a reform plan to present to our wonderful ENFJ conductor. Any specific advices you can think of? ENFJ's, how much constructive criticism can you tolerate without being offended or hurt in some way? Are there lines that should not be crossed?

    Thanks in advance!
    Wow, I see a lot of myself in the conductor. A few years ago, I was placed in charge of my department after my boss left. I hate it. I'm a total pushover. My boss was always respected by her employees, but she still ran a tight ship. No one was late, and no one slacked off. Now that I'm in charge, I feel like it's a freakin circus. Every day this one girl calls in sick or goes home early, assignments are late or come in unedited, etc. It results in me taking on more work to make up for the other employees slacking off. And I can't bring myself to do anything about it. Whenever I have tried to keep people in line, they give me attitude and treat me strangely for a few days and gang up on me, and it's not worth the stress that comes with it.

    One thing I know is this: If a couple of the employees came to me and said they understood what was going on and they wanted to help me, I would definitely listen. It would be a refreshing change from dealing with the employees that are taking advantage of me.

    If I were the conductor and you and your friend presented me with a specific plan, such as a list of consequences for missing practices, I would probably implement it. Honestly, though, I would feel more comfortable if I could announce it like, "I got some helpful feedback about how I'm running the orchestra, and we're going to change things." And then I'd pass out a sheet with the new rules. Because someone else came up with them, I'd be much more likely to stick with it and not let people get away with so much anymore.

    (Yeah, I know I'm a terrible manager. Don't worry, I'm looking for a new job.)

  2. #12
    Hate
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    The description above seems quite accurate for NFJs in power though.
    Correction: "weaker" NFJs in power... Have you ever met a strong ENFJ in power? this would never happen. Don't lump all of us into this category now.

  3. #13
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    4,226

    Default

    I guess my perspective-speaking from my baby ESTJ-is that having a group devoted to performance and skill become a social club annoys the shit out of me in the first place. I guess I value the beauty and artistic merit of the music enough, that I would become a driving bitch to make sure it is done well.

    The objective of the group is to train young musicians into top notch performers and to develop the group into a team that functions in a concerted manner to maximize the final output-musical performance. It has to run as a tight ship with top talent and devoted members.

    If the organization is really that good^^and people have to be skilled to enter, then there will be others waiting to replace them, should they fuck up and not show up for practice.

    But my guess is that her objective is more about group harmony, happiness and inclusion perhaps. Thus becoming stricter in the rules will be counter to harmony.

    Perhaps before presenting your plan-stress how the issues being experienced are really hurting the entire group and disrupting the harmony, teamwork and productivity of the group.

  4. #14
    Hate
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Perhaps before presenting your plan-stress how the issues being experienced are really hurting the entire group and disrupting the harmony, teamwork and productivity of the group.
    ^That’s pretty good… You know how to hit those ENFJ trigger points don’t you?

    If you do present a plan though, the key to your plan will simply be being able to speak to her in her feeler language. Using phrases as Orobas stated above. She sounds like a pretty high feeler.. So you gotta make sure you can speak her feeler language or find someone who can.

    Since you already have established rapport with her, this is definitely a plus. Because ENFJs will listen more to someone they already have a good rapport with.

    ENFJs are all about growth and self-improvement. So cleverly point out how the results of your plan will help make you better students and promote growth. ENFJs respond much better to encouragement than criticism. So you also have to intertwine encouragement along with your constructive criticism. Sound enthusiastic about how you and your friend will be willing to be part of the plan.

    Make sure you validate what she has already done too, but there is still room for you to grow. You gotta hit that validation button. Be sure you also make some bigger picture and future points too as opposed to focusing on the present and presenting a logical plan of action. Talk about the future and paint a bigger picture of where you see the orchestra going if changes are made.

    Carefully point out how she is not being taken seriously and even throw in the word “we.” Say that “we” are not being taken seriously so she doesn’t feel singled out. ENFJs don’t like to be misunderstood or not taken seriously, so hopefully that’ll spark the ENFJ authority in her to not be such a pushover.

    Stress the people issues and don’t make your plan sound impersonal or too cold and logical. She doesn’t sound like the kind of ENFJ that will operate too well in a rigid tension filled competition environment. So if you present your competition idea to her make sure you promote the idea of fair competition and make it sound more fun than tension filled. Explain how a fair competition could be fun and will benefit everyone and promote growth.

    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    ENFJ's, how much constructive criticism can you tolerate without being offended or hurt in some way?
    Entirely depends on who the person dishing out the constructive criticism is. If it is someone that we respect then we can take as much as they can dish. If it is someone that we don't respect then we will either just disregard the advice or probably go on the defensive. Constructive criticism from a stranger can go either way depending on the impression we get from them.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    12,557

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I guess my perspective-speaking from my baby ESTJ-is that having a group devoted to performance and skill become a social club annoys the shit out of me in the first place.
    This isn't about you, puppy.

  6. #16
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,224

    Default

    Although I commend your desire to be helpful, I find it extremely presumptuous to present your teacher with a "plan" to improve her "management style". Sharing your thoughts is one thing; drawing up some sort of "how to" manual for her telling her how to do her job is insulting at best and humiliating at worst. Have you actually been a manager, a teacher, a leader - coordinated a group of disparate individuals?

    It's easy when one is not in a position of authority to sit back and take a critical stance; why don't you use that energy to encourage your peers to take the orchestra as seriously as you do?

    She no doubt is fully aware she is being taken advantage of, and my advice to her is to set rules and follow through. Period. She can still be a loving, compassionate, inspirational leader even with defined guidelines. Until she understands and embraces that herself, she will be continually walked over, regardless of the "plans".

    You can only own what you own.
    Last edited by PeaceBaby; 05-30-2010 at 01:02 PM. Reason: sp
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #17
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,704

    Default

    As kids, however, they can assist by using peer-pressure in a good way for once. Kids, especially in high school are incredibly susceptible to that. If the rest of the group comes down on the late-comers, and makes it clear that that just 'aint cool, man' (), you might be able to support the wonderful teacher in getting the order she needs to make it a fantastic project, without undermining her authority.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  8. #18
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sp/so
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    712

    Default Jaguar:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Are both of you utterly incapable of going to other members who are slacking off and putting a flame under their asses?
    I’ve tried three different methods with a couple of members (at least 8, I believe) in our orchestra. 1) Reasoning 2) criticizing/lecturing and 3) guilt-tripping (talk about having to stoop low…). None of those methods worked.

    Those who do have the temerity to skip don’t listen to me because 1) they know that I don’t have the authority to penalize them and 2) my conductor does have the authority but doesn’t penalize them.

    They just don’t care. What am I supposed to do, hunt all of them down before each practice and physically drag them to class? Yes, like you said, people can be in high school and still have integrity. But most don’t.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    If you think it's because an ENFJ "lacks impersonal structure" or whatever nonsense was flying out of your friend's mouth, you are mistaken.
    Are you saying that implementing solid consequences won’t help keep absence rates down? A more impersonal structure CAN help here, in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    If the people who are not showing up lack the passion to be in that orchestra, then you know what?
    They shouldn't be there.
    Firing people isn’t really an option here because we have very few members to begin with. We need to look for other ways to penalize people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Let's see how far you are willing to go for something you believe in. Maybe the problem is, you don't believe in it at all.
    If all you want to do is "assist" someone in making something "functional," then perhaps you are no different from the others who lack the passion to even show up.
    That’s terrible logic. Also, it makes me think that you do not understand my intentions behind this thread at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Don't pass the buck to the conductor.
    Is there NOTHING she can do to make things better? I think not. I've tried talking to other members. It failed. Now I am trying to help my conductor implement a less skipping-prone system in our orchestra. I AM trying to help. I guess you just don't agree with my methods, which is perfectly fine.
    Last edited by copperfish17; 05-30-2010 at 08:49 AM. Reason: Clarity issues.
    Enneagram: 5w4 5-9-2 (5w4 9w1 2w1) sp/so

    "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." - Greg King
    The worst mistake people make in political arguments is assuming that the other side is not trying to do the right thing. This simple oversight makes productive conversation nearly impossible.

  9. #19
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sp/so
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    712

    Default Rebe:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    She's talking about high school and you are talking about integrity.

    Kids, when you give them an inch, they take a whole mile.
    I, also, have no idea how this thread almost turned into a discussion about my integrity. Or lack thereof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    I had an ESTJ high school teacher and she intimidated everyone. She was downright scary. There was this one student who was always late because of his bus schedule and it was the first class in the morning and at one point, she publicly humiliated him for being late. Poor boy. She asked him to come up and everyone to clap because he was actually on time that day, heavy heavy sarcasm.
    Did people make an effort not to be late to her class after that day?

    (Jaguar, this is the point I am trying to make.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    She will probably be offended and might not be able to carry out the plan since it's not her plan, you know. It'd be like 'pressure to perform', it wouldn't be something she could do naturally.

    I think what she could do simply is inform the kids that after a certain amount of absences, they wouldn't receive credit for being part of the orchestra. In high school, a lot of kids join groups just to get it on their transcript/resume to get into good colleges, so that's a point.

    I'd say mention it casually to her - but don't make it a formal plan because then, she'd be forced to take action even though she'd feel uncomfortable just to save face in front of the two of you - ...
    Thank you Rebe. You bring up excellent points. I will note everything you just wrote here.
    Enneagram: 5w4 5-9-2 (5w4 9w1 2w1) sp/so

    "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." - Greg King
    The worst mistake people make in political arguments is assuming that the other side is not trying to do the right thing. This simple oversight makes productive conversation nearly impossible.

  10. #20
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sp/so
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    712

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RedruM View Post
    You and your friend need to put your classmates in ‘check’ and be the ones to demonstrate integrity. (assuming you are strong enough to do so).
    See what I wrote to Jaguar about how I tried to talk to other members before.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedruM View Post
    A formal plan definitely won’t work, not only because you’re talking about high school. But also because that’s probably the worst way to approach an ENFJ.
    This is a great point. Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElizaJane View Post
    Wow, I see a lot of myself in the conductor. A few years ago, I was placed in charge of my department after my boss left. I hate it. I'm a total pushover. My boss was always respected by her employees, but she still ran a tight ship. No one was late, and no one slacked off. Now that I'm in charge, I feel like it's a freakin circus. Every day this one girl calls in sick or goes home early, assignments are late or come in unedited, etc. It results in me taking on more work to make up for the other employees slacking off. And I can't bring myself to do anything about it. Whenever I have tried to keep people in line, they give me attitude and treat me strangely for a few days and gang up on me, and it's not worth the stress that comes with it.
    Nice example demonstrating the necessity of a more impersonal system. Thank you, ElizaJane.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElizaJane View Post
    If I were the conductor and you and your friend presented me with a specific plan, such as a list of consequences for missing practices, I would probably implement it. Honestly, though, I would feel more comfortable if I could announce it like, "I got some helpful feedback about how I'm running the orchestra, and we're going to change things." And then I'd pass out a sheet with the new rules. Because someone else came up with them, I'd be much more likely to stick with it and not let people get away with so much anymore.

    (Yeah, I know I'm a terrible manager. Don't worry, I'm looking for a new job.)
    Wow, this REALLY helped. EXACTLY the kind of advices I was looking for. Thank you so, so much!

    Quote Originally Posted by RedruM View Post
    If you do present a plan though, the key to your plan will simply be being able to speak to her in her feeler language. Using phrases as Orobas stated above. She sounds like a pretty high feeler.. So you gotta make sure you can speak her feeler language or find someone who can.

    Since you already have established rapport with her, this is definitely a plus. Because ENFJs will listen more to someone they already have a good rapport with.

    ENFJs are all about growth and self-improvement. So cleverly point out how the results of your plan will help make you better students and promote growth. ENFJs respond much better to encouragement than criticism. So you also have to intertwine encouragement along with your constructive criticism. Sound enthusiastic about how you and your friend will be willing to be part of the plan.

    Make sure you validate what she has already done too, but there is still room for you to grow. You gotta hit that validation button. Be sure you also make some bigger picture and future points too as opposed to focusing on the present and presenting a logical plan of action. Talk about the future and paint a bigger picture of where you see the orchestra going if changes are made.

    Carefully point out how she is not being taken seriously and even throw in the word “we.” Say that “we” are not being taken seriously so she doesn’t feel singled out. ENFJs don’t like to be misunderstood or not taken seriously, so hopefully that’ll spark the ENFJ authority in her to not be such a pushover.

    Stress the people issues and don’t make your plan sound impersonal or too cold and logical. She doesn’t sound like the kind of ENFJ that will operate too well in a rigid tension filled competition environment. So if you present your competition idea to her make sure you promote the idea of fair competition and make it sound more fun than tension filled. Explain how a fair competition could be fun and will benefit everyone and promote growth.

    ...

    Entirely depends on who the person dishing out the constructive criticism is. If it is someone that we respect then we can take as much as they can dish. If it is someone that we don't respect then we will either just disregard the advice or probably go on the defensive. Constructive criticism from a stranger can go either way depending on the impression we get from them.
    Again, EXACTLY the kind of advices I was looking for. Thank you very, VERY much. I really appreciate it. Truly.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Although I commend your desire to be helpful, I find it extremely presumptuous you would present your teacher with a "plan" to improve her "management style". Sharing your thoughts is one thing; drawing up some sort of "how to" manual for her telling her how to do her job is insulting at best and humiliating at worst.
    I see your point, thank you for warning me about this. All I wanted to achieve by presenting my conductor with a plan was to suggest (what I think are) good reforms to make. I understand I need to tread carefully. Thanks again for bringing this to my attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    As kids, however, they can assist by using peer-pressure in a good way for once. Kids, especially in high school are incredibly susceptible to that. If the rest of the group comes down on the late-comers, and makes it clear that that just 'aint cool, man' (), you might be able to support the wonderful teacher in getting the order she needs to make it a fantastic project, without undermining her authority.
    See what I wrote to Jaguar about how I tried to talk to other members before.
    Last edited by Lady_X; 12-23-2013 at 09:09 PM.
    Enneagram: 5w4 5-9-2 (5w4 9w1 2w1) sp/so

    "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." - Greg King
    The worst mistake people make in political arguments is assuming that the other side is not trying to do the right thing. This simple oversight makes productive conversation nearly impossible.

Similar Threads

  1. [Inst] The seduction styles of various enneagram variant combos
    By The Great One in forum Instinctual Subtypes
    Replies: 118
    Last Post: 02-23-2017, 02:50 PM
  2. Where is the communication style test thread about MBTI types?
    By Jayce in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-07-2016, 10:15 AM
  3. The Lover Style Profile test (helloquizzy)
    By Wonkavision in forum Online Personality Tests
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 03-22-2015, 09:07 PM
  4. ENFP and the Mercurial Style
    By Mal12345 in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-12-2014, 12:15 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO