• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[INFJ] INFJs

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
I find this type and people representing it to be somewhat interesting.

Highly intuitive and therefore often brilliantly perceptive.

The Ni-Fe combination often creates the Fi affect germane to what we see in INFPs, hence the INFJs will be able to offer profound insights into human nature and relationships. Very much worth listening to.

Yet, when they turn to their Fe, I notice myself rapidly losing regard for them. Not because I have an aversion to feelings in general, this does not happen to me with INFPs who are much more feeling-oriented than the INFJs. I lose regard for them because at this point its not even about interpersonal matters anymore or exploration of the human element, its just cant. Its about showing emotion just to show it irrespectively of how trite and hollow.

So, my question to other INTPs is, can you relate?

And to all, how can one overcome this problem having engaged the INFJ. I am not talking about any particular relationship per se. What I am looking for is a way to avoid losing the tie due to their Fe, as that aspect of their character not only vitiates their much esteemed intuitive insights, but also my interpersonal connection with them.


*FJs---keep in mind, I am not looking for a solution to settle into, I'd be much more interested in your brainstorming than your conclusions. I already have a plausible solution in mind to this problem, more perspectives would never hurt.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Yet, when they turn to their Fe, I notice myself rapidly losing regard for them. Not because I have an aversion to feelings in general, this does not happen to me with INFPs who are much more feeling-oriented than the INFJs. I lose regard for them because at this point its not even about interpersonal matters anymore or exploration of the human element, its just cant. Its about showing emotion just to show it irrespectively of how trite and hollow.

I don't have issues with mature INFJs.

And my opinion is that unqualified bolded comment reflects more upon you than upon the INFJs I know, to be honest.

It will be interesting to see if you can garner some serious replies to an OP that essentially insults another type (along with insinuating negative things against any Fe-dominant type) so blatantly.

And to all, how can one overcome this problem having engaged the INFJ. I am not talking about any particular relationship per se. What I am looking for is a way to avoid losing the tie due to their Fe, as that aspect of their character not only vitiates their much esteemed intuitive insights, but also my interpersonal connection with them.

It's a two-way street. You have to realize that they can easily read your Ne or Ti as something that is prohibiting "true relationship" with them, to the extent that you take it to make comments like this... so perhaps the question is what can you change in yourself that might make the relationship better, rather than asking what's wrong with them.

Worry about yourself and how you're coming across, first and foremost, and know your own weaknesses.

That all being said, sometimes Fe does feel "more formal" whereas I am looking for a more intimate and informal connection. For example, my second therapist is INFJ, and while I understood her (and so I didn't take the "distance" personally, our communications were awkward and I didn't feel an easy connection with her. She relaxed over time, as we felt each other out, and things have improved, but I don't know if there is an easy way past that. It's something that has to be worked out with the individual. I simply stuck with her and responded appropriately through Fe, without trying to "push" things too much -- I stuck my neck out first, so to speak, without trying to force a connection -- and things improved as we got to know each other better.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
I don't have issues with mature INFJs.

And my opinion is that unqualified bolded comment reflects more upon you than upon the INFJs I know, to be honest.

It will be interesting to see if you can garner some serious replies to an OP that essentially insults another type (along with insinuating negative things against any Fe-dominant type) so blatantly.



It's a two-way street. You have to realize that they can easily read your Ne or Ti as something that is prohibiting "true relationship" with them, to the extent that you take it to make comments like this... so perhaps the question is what can you change in yourself that might make the relationship better, rather than asking what's wrong with them.

Worry about yourself and how you're coming across, first and foremost, and know your own weaknesses.

That all being said, sometimes Fe does feel "more formal" whereas I am looking for a more intimate and informal connection. For example, my second therapist is INFJ, and while I understood her (and so I didn't take the "distance" personally, our communications were awkward and I didn't feel an easy connection with her. She relaxed over time, as we felt each other out, and things have improved, but I don't know if there is an easy way past that. It's something that has to be worked out with the individual. I simply stuck with her and responded appropriately through Fe, without trying to "push" things too much -- I stuck my neck out first, so to speak, without trying to force a connection -- and things improved as we got to know each other better.


Generally healthy and balanced INFJs tend to exude the aforementioned Fi effect. Cant is often evidence of their malfunctioning.

Worry about yourself and how you're coming across, first and foremost, and know your own weaknesses..

Thats a matter for another discussion because this thread is about the already malfunctioning INFJs. However, based on your suggestion, one can claim that if I try to be the soundest I can be, they will be led out of their malfunctioning. Thats a solution, however, not a good one--as INFJs need to undergo an internal change (as introverts primarily are influenced internally) in order to become sound.
 

INTJMom

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
5,413
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
...
And to all, how can one overcome this problem having engaged the INFJ. I am not talking about any particular relationship per se. What I am looking for is a way to avoid losing the tie due to their Fe, as that aspect of their character not only vitiates their much esteemed intuitive insights, but also my interpersonal connection with them.
...
From my experience, the bottom line is this: if you don't want to lose the tie, then you need to learn to appreciate Fe. There must be something good about it. Every quality has good points and bad points, doesn't it?

On the other hand, would this person stop doing so much Fe around you if you asked them to?

What about Fe is so distasteful to you? Is it possible that this person may have other "issues" such as a boundary problem, and their Fe is going overboard accordingly?
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
2,790
MBTI Type
OMNi
Yet, when they turn to their Fe, I notice myself rapidly losing regard for them. Not because I have an aversion to feelings in general, this does not happen to me with INFPs who are much more feeling-oriented than the INFJs. I lose regard for them because at this point its not even about interpersonal matters anymore or exploration of the human element, its just cant. Its about showing emotion just to show it irrespectively of how trite and hollow.

Help me out here BW; how about some examples of these "trite" and "hollow" displays of emotion? In what ways do they inhibit intuition?
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
I think the piece you are missing is empathy.
 

Eileen

New member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
2,179
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
6?
I actually avoid trite and hollow expressions of emotion, myself - and I would suspect that most INFJs do. Sincerity and genuineness are pretty key to the INFJ.
 

quietgirl

New member
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
401
MBTI Type
INFJ
Could this simply be your perception of a function you experience negatively?

I find the functions I do not experience favorably tend to give me a negative impression when I view them in others.
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
2,790
MBTI Type
OMNi
I think the piece you are missing is empathy.

I think you probably hit the nail on the head. What is it with NTs and their hatred for compassion? On INTJ central I ran into members who went on and on about how useless it is to be aware of another's feelings. Nothing seems to offend them more than drawing their attention to the condition of other's emotion and pain.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Yet, when they turn to their Fe, I notice myself rapidly losing regard for them. Not because I have an aversion to feelings in general, this does not happen to me with INFPs who are much more feeling-oriented than the INFJs. I lose regard for them because at this point its not even about interpersonal matters anymore or exploration of the human element, its just cant. Its about showing emotion just to show it irrespectively of how trite and hollow.

Interesting. But I disagree. When I turn to Fe, sometimes it's about using Fe to promulgate Ni goals... that could be what seems hollow to you. But that's how auxiliary functions tend to serve dominant ones. Fi confuses me just as much as Fe confuses you... some people just don't have that Fi "link." And why did you change your type to INTJ?
And to all, how can one overcome this problem having engaged the INFJ. I am not talking about any particular relationship per se. What I am looking for is a way to avoid losing the tie due to their Fe, as that aspect of their character not only vitiates their much esteemed intuitive insights, but also my interpersonal connection with them.

Actually, it might be best to avoid engaging us emotionally if dealing with more stereotypical emotional expressions isn't your forte. If you engage us emotionally, we may react that way. You might be able to gather more insight into "deeper" emotions if you ask us about topics that don't engage them directly, or put us in a position we don't have a personal stake in. The Fi is unconscious/obscured to some degree, so it can "seep" through the cracks where Fe doesn't really have a stake in things.

Basically, if you don't want to hear any Fe, don't give us a reason to express it. Okay?

What do you think?
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
I think you probably hit the nail on the head. What is it with NTs and their hatred for compassion? On INTJ central I ran into members who went on and on about how useless it is to be aware of another's feelings. Nothing seems to offend them more than drawing their attention to the condition of other's emotion and pain.
They aren't all like that. Promise.

And though I don't personally believe that it is useless to be aware of other's feelings, it doesn't really matter, I am. I can't help it. It's not even a virtue, it's just a trait. For good or for ill, my feelings are tied to the feelings of those around me and that means if I want to feel good, I can't go around making people feel bad. Sometimes that means observing social conventions even when I do not believe they have value beyond maintaining harmony. I do not observe the conventions because I care about the conventions, they are just tools in my toolbox. I observe them because I care about people and about how they feel whether I want to or not. It is not a selfless thing that I do, but it is certainly not insincere.
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
2,790
MBTI Type
OMNi
They aren't all like that. Promise.

And though I don't personally believe that it is useless to be aware of other's feelings, it doesn't really matter, I am. I can't help it. It's not even a virtue, it's just a trait. For good or for ill, my feelings are tied to the feelings of those around me and that means if I want to feel good, I can't go around making people feel bad. Sometimes that means observing social conventions even when I do not believe they have value beyond maintaining harmony. I do not observe the conventions because I care about the conventions, they are just tools in my toolbox. I observe them because I care about people and about how they feel whether I want to or not. It is not a selfless thing that I do, but it is certainly not insincere.

True dat. I once worried for weeks about a joke I made at another's expense, long after he had already forgotten about it. Some people have learned they can even manipulate me this way. But I'm not ashamed for feeling for others. I actually tend to pity those who don't care. I just find it so hard to relate to those who care only about themselves. It seems to me it would be such a lonely world if you couldn't share in the suffering and happiness of your fellow human beings.

However, I lack in some of those Fi emotions, such as passion. I'm jealous of those who can feel so strongly about their values and identities that they would fight relentlessly to preserve them.
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
True dat. I once worried for weeks about a joke I made at another's expense, long after he had already forgotten about it. Some people have learned they can even manipulate me this way. But I'm not ashamed for feeling for others. I actually tend to pity those who don't care. I just find it so hard to relate to those who care only about themselves. It seems to me it would be such a lonely world if you couldn't share in the suffering and happiness of your fellow human beings.
It really can make life richer. One of those blessing/curse things in my experience.

Picking my husband's brain on the subject at hand, he thinks it's possible that the empathy does exist in those who devalue emotion, but it makes them uncomfortable, so they deflect it into anger. IOW, it feels unpleasant so they label it as bad instead of recognizing it as a normal, human empathy reaction and dealing with it accordingly. That actually makes a lot of sense.
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
2,790
MBTI Type
OMNi
It really can make life richer. One of those blessing/curse things in my experience.

Picking my husband's brain on the subject at hand, he thinks it's possible that the empathy does exist in those who devalue emotion, but it makes them uncomfortable, so they deflect it into anger. IOW, it feels unpleasant so they label it as bad instead of recognizing it as a normal, human empathy reaction and dealing with it accordingly. That actually makes a lot of sense.

I see. I guess if something makes somebody feel bad and they can't deal with it directly then they are very likely to avoid it or hate it. So perhaps what a lot of NTs need are tips on how to understand and deal with empathy and compassion. Otherwise they are just going to become completely impersonal.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Sincerity and genuineness are pretty key to the INFJ.

Not after they've gone neurotic...

Keep in mind, I am not talking about how Fe typically functions with the INFJ, that was the Ni-Fe(Fi effect) that I found pleasant..

The cant part does not come in until they start doing something like...

"Interesting. But I disagree. When I turn to Fe, sometimes it's about using Fe to promulgate Ni goals... that could be what seems hollow to you. But that's how auxiliary functions tend to serve dominant ones. "

In such case compassion and sincerity are only as good as they conduce to their Ni vision.


P.S

Whose joke was it to change my type to INTJ ?
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
2,790
MBTI Type
OMNi
Not after they've gone neurotic...

Keep in mind, I am not talking about how Fe typically functions with the INFJ, that was the Ni-Fe(Fi effect) that I found pleasant..

The cant part does not come in until they start doing something like...

"Interesting. But I disagree. When I turn to Fe, sometimes it's about using Fe to promulgate Ni goals... that could be what seems hollow to you. But that's how auxiliary functions tend to serve dominant ones. "

I notice something similar with INTJs where they will start spouting off information regardless of relevance, as if trying to bury the point at hand under a mountain of data. I think it is a defense that results when an Ni dominant is threatened. They pull in the Fe or Te in an attempt to cope. The obvious solution is to stop whatever you are doing to put them on the defensive.

However, this isn't a typical response for healthy INTJs or INFJs. It's indicative that they have given themselves to their intuition and since they probably can't justify their hunches with concrete evidence, they are just pouring on the Te or Fe in anticipation that whoever they are talking to will inevitably come to the same conclusion.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
However, this isn't a typical response for healthy INTJs or INFJs. It's indicative that they have given themselves to their intuition and since they probably can't justify their hunches with concrete evidence, they are just pouring on the Te or Fe in anticipation that whoever they are talking to will inevitably come to the same conclusion.


Correct. In this thread I am predominantly concerned with very unhealthy INFJs.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
I think the piece you are missing is empathy.

I guess I just cant empathize with hollow and trite emotion..i dont think this shows that I lack empathy in general.
 
R

RDF

Guest
I lose regard for them because at this point its not even about interpersonal matters anymore or exploration of the human element, its just cant. Its about showing emotion just to show it irrespectively of how trite and hollow.

Hypothetically, the accusation in the OP can be turned back on you. That is, the OP sounds like Ne cant.

Sure, it's good to talk about how personality types might be misusing their non-dominant functions. But why single out one particular personality type and dog them about how you and other INTPs can't put up with them due to potential neurotic application of their Auxiliary function. As if that's a big part of who they are.

Answer: Everyone knows that INTPs typically don't understand and don't like Fe. But it's difficult to trash Fe in Fe-dominant types (ENFJs and ESFJs), because the function is actually a fairly powerful and effective tool when used by them and it has its defenders. So you trash Fe when used as an Auxiliary, particularly by immature INFJs. By showing that Fe can indeed be abused by its owners, you raise questions about its sincerity in general.

Again, it sounds like Ne cant coming from an immature INTP: Your Ti is very self-involved; your Ne makes the world seem very intrusive and puts you on the defensive; so you use Ne neurotically to dream up ways to attack and minimize the biggest bugaboo of the INTPs: Fe. You do a big song and dance about how INFJs are untrustworthy due to their Auxiliary Fe: "Yet, when they turn to their Fe, I notice myself rapidly losing regard for them. [...] its just cant. Its about showing emotion just to show it irrespectively of how trite and hollow."

You would do better to take your own advice. Use your own Auxiliary Ne to inform your Dominant Ti, rather than to attack and fend off aspects of the world you don't like. Extraverted Feeling is a powerful tool. Rather than attacking it in places where it's vulnerable (immature INFJs), study it in Fe-dominant types (ENFJs and ESFJs) and learn to appreciate it as a powerful and positive tool for understanding and managing the world around oneself.

Note that I'm just showing you how the accusation in the OP can be turned back on you, as a hypothetical exercise. I do personally tend to think that you yourself misuse your Ne by getting overly defensive and launching attacks on parts of the world you don't like (as opposed to using it in a healthy manner to inform your Ti about the world around you). But I won't insist on that interpretation.

Mainly I just bring all this up to answer the question that you raised in the OP. By showing you how you come off as potentially exhibiting the same problem that you describe, you can perhaps find an answer.

IOW: How does one deal with BlueWing, who uses his Ne Auxiliary in neurotic fashion to attack bits of the world that he fears or dislikes? By realizing that immature use of his Auxiliary is only a small part of his overall personality (albeit a vastly irritating one) and that he'll eventually mature and grow out of it as he learns to use his Auxiliary in a more healthy fashion (i.e., to inform his Ti about the world).

Thus: How should BlueWing deal with immature INFJs, who use their Fe Auxiliary in neurotic fashion to manipulate bits of the world that they fear or dislike? By realizing that it's only a small part of their personality and that they'll eventually mature and grow out of it as they learn to use their Auxiliary in a more healthy fashion (i.e., to inform their Ni about the world).

How should we deal with immature people of all personality types who use their various Auxiliaries in neurotic fashion to manipulate bits of the world that they fear or dislike? By realizing (...blah blah blah).
 
Top