[INFJ] INFJ... What the heck is going on??

[Arclight]

Hi..

I have a question for INFJs , or really anyone who cares to chime in.

It seems to me there are two kinds of INFJs and I am confused.
My confusion comes from a serious misunderstanding of Fe vs Fi.
As my knowledge about these two functions increases so does my confusion.

Fe is the auxiliary function. from what I understand about Fe and it's difference to Fi, why does it seem that many INFJs are actually Fi users?
What I mean is.. Why are so many INFJs loners, socially awkward and not able to get along with the general population??
Why does someone that is wired for social grace often seem to lack a sense of belonging to something they understand so deeply?
Doesn't being strong in Fe almost guarantee a socially adept person?

I see this in some INFJs..a strong sense of social responsibility and an ability to be accountable for themselves . Those who seem to understand their role in life and who thrive.
Then there is the lonely INFJ.. who is often bitter and unwilling to see how their own behavior causes much of their discomfort.. they seem unwilling to embrace others and don't know how to fit in or seem to understand social situations. They complain of feeling alienated and seem to often blame others for their miscommunications and conflict..
This says to me weak Fe .. but how can that be??

Is this a case of mistyping?
are they INFPs who are kidding themselves?
Or.. is there something more to it?
For example is it Ni related?

I would love some insight.

Thank You

 

[Phantonym]

I wouldn't really like to make this a type issue. There is a possibility of mistyping, of course. But there's also being unhealthy, life experience, personal issues, whatever circumstances in the past or present that have been or are influential in the person's life, any number of things that have made people who they are. It's never as simple as 4 letters and some functions thrown in the bunch. There are no guarantees with anything.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Hi..

I have a question for INFJs , or really anyone who cares to chime in.

It seems to me there are two kinds of INFJs and I am confused.
My confusion comes from a serious misunderstanding of Fe vs Fi.
As my knowledge about these two functions increases so does my confusion.

Fe is the auxiliary function. from what I understand about Fe and it's difference to Fi, why does it seem that many INFJs are actually Fi users?
What I mean is.. Why are so many INFJs loners, socially awkward and not able to get along with the general population??
Why does someone that is wired for social grace often seem to lack a sense of belonging to something they understand so deeply?
Doesn't being strong in Fe almost guarantee a socially adept person?

I see this in some INFJs..a strong sense of social responsibility and an ability to be accountable for themselves . Those who seem to understand their role in life and who thrive.
Then there is the lonely INFJ.. who is often bitter and unwilling to see how their own behavior causes much of their discomfort.. they seem unwilling to embrace others and don't know how to fit in or seem to understand social situations. They complain of feeling alienated and seem to often blame others for their miscommunications and conflict..
This says to me weak Fe .. but how can that be??

Is this a case of mistyping?
are they INFPs who are kidding themselves?
Or.. is there something more to it?
For example is it Ni related?

I would love some insight.

Thank You

Sky is Blue is right. Could be anything. If a person was raised in an unhealthy environment, they might not have learned how to consider others' feelings even though they have an underlying proclivity toward it. Or if they have a low self esteem, they might not be able to come out of their shell long enough to interact or learn how to interact well.

Beyond that, there are various stages we all go through in life; hard times that turn an introvert even more inward. Fe aux is not like Fe dom. I daresay a true INFJ who has much trust in someone, could exhibit Fe in an intimate one on one setting.

Would you care to elaborate? Having a problem with an INFJ?

 

[CuriousFeeling]

It's personal experiences, I think. INFJs just want to love and be loved in return, much like any type. But if they've been excluded socially, subject to bullying/ridicule, or had some sort of traumatic experience in their lives, it affects them deeply. But this can even apply to many other types of people as well, not just INFJs.

 

[Arclight]

Sky is Blue is right. Could be anything. If a person was raised in an unhealthy environment, they might not have learned how to consider others' feelings even though they have an underlying proclivity toward it. Or if they have a low self esteem, they might not be able to come out of their shell long enough to interact or learn how to interact well.

Beyond that, there are various stages we all go through in life; hard times that turn an introvert even more inward. Fe aux is not like Fe dom. I daresay a true INFJ who has much trust in someone, could exhibit Fe in an intimate one on one setting.

Would you care to elaborate? Having a problem with an INFJ?

I had a very messed up relationship with an INFJ or INFP.. (that is one of the things I am trying to determine) .. although like SIB said .. type is irrelevant.
I want to heal and I want to forgive her badly.. But in order for me to heal and for me to truly forgive her.. I have to understand what the heck happened. It's clear I broke her trust in me and life and love. But it is also clear she was manipulative and damaged before we ever met. If I don't sort out, and soon, what is real and what is manipulation, what was me and what was her I fear it will consume me and I will lose whatever good can come out of this. And that will be the greatest disservice to her. I mean her pain has to be worth something as well. and if it doesn't help her grow, that is sad, but if I also don't grow then in her case it's a travesty.
But she was just plain nasty sometimes and she said some mean spirited things. But how much of that was my creation?
See I am a stage now where the immediate pain has subsided enough that I can be at least a little objective.. I am aware I treated her less than human at one time. But she offered me redemption..and another chance.. But only in theory.. she never actually gave it to me.
I am sorry if this is confusing.. But I haven't really started to work on this until now and it's been almost 6 months.
I just care about her and I am sorry we got hurt. but I can't fix anything in myself if I am chasing after her bitterness instead of what the real issues are. So a lot of what I talk about is just me trying to separate reality VS the perception of a hurt person and my own guilt and shame.
I got accused of having weak Fe .. despite my social grace and constant consideration for the feelings of others while she claimed to have High Fe while having a life a unresolved conflict and finger pointing.
She claimed to love me unconditionally while she handed me an actual written list of conditions. meanwhile I loved her enough to sacrifice my security and didn't care if I went broke while she stayed home to find herself at my expense. It didn't matter because I loved her.
That is only the surface of things.. But those two alone keep me up at night.
I know in my heart I can love with the best of them.
But I also know at one point I didn't take our love very seriously and I am only just beginning to understand the effect that had on her.
So it's simply a case of where does she end and I begin.
If you want real details I would have to go private about it.

I just want to add.. That You are one of those well adjusted INFJs I spoke about in my OP.. and that I wondered if you were going to respond to this thread. I am pleased that you did.

SIB.. despite her own self image being a bit distorted , because she is so much more solid than she gives herself credit for.. is also one of those well adjusted INFJs I spoke about ..
So thank you both for responding.

 

[Goodewitch]

No Exit..
Ughh playing the video loop over and over in your head and trying to unravel what seems like a totally impossible squiggly ball of knotted string is awful isnt it. Where did it all go wrong?
Who started it?
Who's to blame?
Impossible to really know as both of your personalities and experiences set this all in motion from the moment you met.
I thought hard about replying to your thread, as I am going to have to 'out' myself as one of those bitter, Fi using nastier INFJ's. But,.. you're hurting, and right now, maybe a perspective from another INFJ who has similar traits to your ex girlfreind could at least serve to make you realise it wasnt all just you, and that maybe neither of you are really the villains here.
I have just been parted from someone in a very similar way to you and your ex, through oth our behaviours.
People like your ex and myself are usually very insecure about certainaspects of relationships, like trust, and confidence that we are loved. We try to control it by being very J and giving a list of demands as your ex did to you, the conditions you mentioned were the only way she would have felt safe and 'respected' enough by you, to go into a relationship.. essentially this is mostly her problem, but it stems from fear of being used, or treated lightly, and without respect.
As you say, at one point, you maybe didnt treat her or the feeling you had for her, and her for you, very seriously. For me, and maybe for her, this is like the worst fear coming true. A stark realisation that the love we are putting into someone is not reciprocated... a sort of mini death to an INFJ's ego, if theyre already low on self esteem. She may have wanted to offer redemption because at that point she wanted you, but in reality, the damage was done,.. and she stood as a secret judge jury and executioner on you.
Trust me, she would have wanted to try and get on with things, forgive and be happy again with you, but that hurt will have manifested itself in outbursts of temper, resentment, and being uber critical of you. NI and Fe can find the best way to really hit you where it hurts, and deep inside, she will have felt compelled to hurt you in revenge for you hurting her.
That was the pivotal point.
It happened.
Some people could have sincerely forgiven each other and gotten past that point, but a fearful, low self esteem, lonely INFJ cannot seem to ever get past a hurt. In a strange way, insecurity can look very much like massive ego, because we're so desperately tring to compensate for our own fears about how worthless and unlovable we are.
Bear in mind I'm talking about the 'unhealthy' kind of INFJ here.
So, to sum up,.. although you both made mistakes, none of these mistakes should have been enough to leave you both feeling as hurt as you both are.
this dynamic is too dysfunctional to ever really be repaired, i beleive.
the best you can do is understand that all this was in existence before you even said hello,... all that happened is that you two getting together, made the circumstances possible for all these unhealthy/insecure behaviours to have full reign.
Neither of you should beat up on yourselves, all the two of you.. or in this case, all YOU can do, is know that you tried the best you could at the time,.. thats all anyone can do.
You've learned lessons, she will have too, wether she ever admits it to you or not.
If you take anything from my post, please take this... a relationship is supposed to make you happier than you were, its supposed to be an enhancement in your life, its supposed to make you smile, when the dynamic becomes angst ridden, and full of fighting against each other, then its apparent that you were not compatible,.. too much arguing is never a good sign.
INFJ's of all types, healthy or not, are pretty intense, and im sure loving us can be a very very hard task at times, as we can never seem to get enough of the stuff
Trying to give that much love is a tall order, and mistakes will be made in trying to fill that expectation.
You've tried, now please,.. on wards and upwards and regain your happiness
G. x

 

[the state i am in]

Hi..

I have a question for INFJs , or really anyone who cares to chime in.

It seems to me there are two kinds of INFJs and I am confused.
My confusion comes from a serious misunderstanding of Fe vs Fi.
As my knowledge about these two functions increases so does my confusion.

Fe is the auxiliary function. from what I understand about Fe and it's difference to Fi, why does it seem that many INFJs are actually Fi users?
What I mean is.. Why are so many INFJs loners, socially awkward and not able to get along with the general population??
Why does someone that is wired for social grace often seem to lack a sense of belonging to something they understand so deeply?
Doesn't being strong in Fe almost guarantee a socially adept person?

I see this in some INFJs..a strong sense of social responsibility and an ability to be accountable for themselves . Those who seem to understand their role in life and who thrive.
Then there is the lonely INFJ.. who is often bitter and unwilling to see how their own behavior causes much of their discomfort.. they seem unwilling to embrace others and don't know how to fit in or seem to understand social situations. They complain of feeling alienated and seem to often blame others for their miscommunications and conflict..
This says to me weak Fe .. but how can that be??

Is this a case of mistyping?
are they INFPs who are kidding themselves?
Or.. is there something more to it?
For example is it Ni related?

I would love some insight.

Thank You

it's not Fi but there are many infj e4s. e4s are hyper-aware of difference and have a tendency to consider difference as deformity in themselves, tho they see usually see it positively in others. but it takes a lot of support, positive experience/feedback, etc for e4s of all types to emerge from this oppressive pressure of the imploding self, and begin to use what they've learned to see the best in others rather than dragging down the world with them into their awful black hole. when they do get it figured out, they defend/are sensitive to the needs of the self/individual like no one else. and they are capable of taking the worst and most refused and finding something redeeming in it, finding a way to express it meaningfully, inhabit it, explore it, etc.

infjs often grow up feeling completely outcast. difficulty communicating, too vague, abstract, ungrounded, lacking in concrete meaning and sometimes purposeful speech. it takes a long time for Ni to model the world well enough to feel grounded in it. much like Fi can take a long time to even out, get under wraps, self-regulate, etc. for us it's our ability to see what has come before us and, in the midst of those waves crashing down, stay centered.

aux Fe is scary for us because we don't want to let too much negativity in. we are not great at processing our emotions internally (vs Fi types, who are). we recognize our happiness and our sadness in others, in their expressions, as we imagine their situations. because of this otherness focus, we are often much better at managing others emotions than our own, which often don't register as well as we'd like.

this is compounded by different ennegram types. i'm a 5w4, so i'm really head-focused. i think my way through everything, rationalize my feelings, and generally avoid them (because they would be overwhelming). i feel so emotionally immature sometimes as a result, and the behavior that shows can be terribly embarrassing-- how i feel so obvious, i cannot hide from my emotions internally or in the world around me, etc. 4s embrace them more directly, so they get more skilled at riding the wave, but those feelings can still cause tremendous damage to the way they have understood the world up to this point. shake their foundation, their view of the world and their place within it. finding grounding takes time, and it's Ti that does it.

the instinctual subtypes are also relevant for each different person. i'm an sx/sp which has the most internal conflict. the most awful push-pull quality internally. sx/so is more 100% intensity all the time, which can leave it just totally washed out internally. the sp types are a bit more dissolute, which makes them more self-sufficiency and less needy, and the so/sx are the lightest of the bunch on the surface, but generally have an undercurrent of deep anxieties and insecurities.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I had a very messed up relationship with an INFJ or INFP.. (that is one of the things I am trying to determine) .. although like SIB said .. type is irrelevant.
I want to heal and I want to forgive her badly.. But in order for me to heal and for me to truly forgive her.. I have to understand what the heck happened. It's clear I broke her trust in me and life and love. But it is also clear she was manipulative and damaged before we ever met. If I don't sort out, and soon, what is real and what is manipulation, what was me and what was her I fear it will consume me and I will lose whatever good can come out of this. And that will be the greatest disservice to her. I mean her pain has to be worth something as well. and if it doesn't help her grow, that is sad, but if I also don't grow then in her case it's a travesty.
But she was just plain nasty sometimes and she said some mean spirited things. But how much of that was my creation?
See I am a stage now where the immediate pain has subsided enough that I can be at least a little objective.. I am aware I treated her less than human at one time. But she offered me redemption..and another chance.. But only in theory.. she never actually gave it to me.
I am sorry if this is confusing.. But I haven't really started to work on this until now and it's been almost 6 months.
I just care about her and I am sorry we got hurt. but I can't fix anything in myself if I am chasing after her bitterness instead of what the real issues are. So a lot of what I talk about is just me trying to separate reality VS the perception of a hurt person and my own guilt and shame.
I got accused of having weak Fe .. despite my social grace and constant consideration for the feelings of others while she claimed to have High Fe while having a life a unresolved conflict and finger pointing.
She claimed to love me unconditionally while she handed me an actual written list of conditions. meanwhile I loved her enough to sacrifice my security and didn't care if I went broke while she stayed home to find herself at my expense. It didn't matter because I loved her.
That is only the surface of things.. But those two alone keep me up at night.
I know in my heart I can love with the best of them.
But I also know at one point I didn't take our love very seriously and I am only just beginning to understand the effect that had on her.
So it's simply a case of where does she end and I begin.
If you want real details I would have to go private about it.

I just want to add.. That You are one of those well adjusted INFJs I spoke about in my OP.. and that I wondered if you were going to respond to this thread. I am pleased that you did.

SIB.. despite her own self image being a bit distorted , because she is so much more solid than she gives herself credit for.. is also one of those well adjusted INFJs I spoke about ..
So thank you both for responding.

I was going to encourage you to share what happened, because it's really only in finally throwing it out there that we exorcise it from us. But it sounds like you hurt her inadvertently, and she is distancing herself, has distanced herself, or is punishing you in some way.

What I will first say transcends type; we are all responsible for our feelings and actions. If someone hurts you, it is ultimately you who allows it to permeate you and perceive it as hurt, as difficult as that is to accept. Conversely, if someone is nice to you, it feels good but it's not really about you either. It's about them, just as how you are in the world is about you; good or bad. You bring people into your life and assign to them value, just as others do to you. You need only be concerned with how you treat others, that's it. If you always give love, love will come your way. This doesn't necessarily happen on a case-by-case basis, indeed, doesn't usually happen that way at all, but a loving intent will produce a loving environment. That includes loving yourself of course.

When someone is "damaged" or has sustained a lifetime of hurt or abuse, they could bring to any relationship they have that inherent ego, and its bruises or scars. It very likely might be difficult for them to separate out where they end and others begin, because their sense of self can be harder to locate, which will make for haphazard boundaries that are always in flux. Unless they have done a lot of soul-searching and healing, and have learned by objective intentions to understand well where their boundaries lie, they are likely to not understand how to be fully with another. Healthy people have learned by the time they get intimately involved (which is one reason I am against childhood dating) where those emo boundaries are, for the most part. When emotional boundaries get muddied, it can be the hardest situation for an F type to navigate, especially two F types together.

What can we do when we hurt someone? We apologize sincerely, and if possible, figure out where it came from, but not so much to hash through with the person who was hurt, more so that the same won't happen again. Beyond that, we can only offer what we have to give and no more. If we offer something beyond ourselves, turn ourselves inside-out so to speak, it is doomed to failure because we cannot sustain a relationship if we cannot sustain ourselves. Again, this is where those who struggle to maintain their basic sense of self on a daily basis could have trouble maintaining a healthy relationship. Not that it can't be done, but it just takes more work for them, and work that, I believe, is best done alone, outside of a relationship. Then they can bring back that healthier sense of self to offer later.

Then we get into more type related stuff. If Love were enough we'd be living in Utopia right now. Love is one small piece of what makes two people work together. Being able to communicate, and communicate effectively, is paramount for getting along and not losing one's sanity in the process. The Fi and the Fe thing are very different ways of being, and I think breeds some of the hardest communication gaps to bridge. Navigating communication between Fe and Fi can be tricky stuff in even a normal situation. Compound this by an ego dysfunction or a stressful time, and it's like when a fishhook becomes imbedded in your skin. Your instinct is to simply pull it out, because that usually always works with anything else; but in this case doing what is natural hurts worse, you have to think counter intuitively to solve each problem, which is tiring. Consequently, no one usually lets a fishhook become imbedded because we are extra careful in future. If you keep handling fishhooks, however, and they keep becoming lodged under your skin, you will have a gaping, nasty wound that will take a very long time to heal. You can try things to avoid getting hurt, like altering how you handle it, or protecting yourself a bit more, but it's just the nature of the situation to a large degree. Until the Fe person and the Fi person each become more comfortable with Fi and Fe in themselves, communication can be difficult.

to you both.

 

[vince]

L'enfer, c'est les autres (Hell is other people)

I'm personally convinced that a lot of other people don't bother to hear me out because I don't speak in catch phrases. I think most people are shallow.
This hasn't kept me from being succesful in the important aspects of my life. I think most INFJs are too good for this world and that I say this because it's a fact rather than a defense mechanism.

I also think we've failed as a race in the past and we fail as a race now and that what we consider as "normal" is inevitably the cause of that. So that's also why I shun too much conformity.

 

[Andy]

Hi..

I have a question for INFJs , or really anyone who cares to chime in.

It seems to me there are two kinds of INFJs and I am confused.
My confusion comes from a serious misunderstanding of Fe vs Fi.
As my knowledge about these two functions increases so does my confusion.

Fe is the auxiliary function. from what I understand about Fe and it's difference to Fi, why does it seem that many INFJs are actually Fi users?
What I mean is.. Why are so many INFJs loners, socially awkward and not able to get along with the general population??
Why does someone that is wired for social grace often seem to lack a sense of belonging to something they understand so deeply?
Doesn't being strong in Fe almost guarantee a socially adept person?

I see this in some INFJs..a strong sense of social responsibility and an ability to be accountable for themselves . Those who seem to understand their role in life and who thrive.
Then there is the lonely INFJ.. who is often bitter and unwilling to see how their own behavior causes much of their discomfort.. they seem unwilling to embrace others and don't know how to fit in or seem to understand social situations. They complain of feeling alienated and seem to often blame others for their miscommunications and conflict..
This says to me weak Fe .. but how can that be??

Is this a case of mistyping?
are they INFPs who are kidding themselves?
Or.. is there something more to it?
For example is it Ni related?

I would love some insight.

Thank You

I think both Ni and the inferior Se are involved here. With such weak Se, INFJs often get so caught up in their own thoughts that they miss what is going on around them - such as the fact that the person standing right next to them isn't happy.

Se is more than just alertness, of course, it's also an attitude, a desire to directly experience life first hand. With Se in the inferior position, INJs sometimes shy away from doing exactly that, prefering to opperate at a remote, often by directing other people in what they need to done. It's an attitude that can also lead the INJ to become isolated, though the INFJs aren't quite as bad as the INTJs.

Ni can be isolating as well, for two reasons I can think of. First, it's a rare function INJs are the least common of the types, so it's not unusual for them to feel like no-one understands them. The second reason is more insiduous. Ni deconstructs meaning and perception. Being Fe users, society is often a point of focus for INFJs. But what is society except a shared perception that we belong to a group? Once you begin to take that idea apart, society can start to look rather ethereal and laking in substance. After awhile, it can all start to look hollow and meaningless.

 

[vince]

I think both Ni and the inferior Se are involved here. With such weak Se, INFJs often get so caught up in their own thoughts that they miss what is going on around them - such as the fact that the person standing right next to them isn't happy.

INFJs are the most empathic type of all. So an INFJ would be the absolute last person or type NOT to notice the unhappiness of someone around him/her.
Other than that I do relate to what you said.

I think a better example might be :
INFJs are going to miss the literal text of what someone is saying to them, rather than the general vibe they get from that person.

 

[Skyward]

L'enfer, c'est les autres (Hell is other people)

I'm personally convinced that a lot of other people don't bother to hear me out because I don't speak in catch phrases. I think most people are shallow.
This hasn't kept me from being succesful in the important aspects of my life. I think most INFJs are too good for this world and that I say this because it's a fact rather than a defense mechanism.

I also think we've failed as a race in the past and we fail as a race now and that what we consider as "normal" is inevitably the cause of that. So that's also why I shun too much conformity.

My opinion is similar.

INFJs are quite different from the normal denominator and as introverts would have to work harder than an extrovert (I mean as in how much work it FEELS like) who gets along more naturally and is better at seeing things as they are. whereas INFJs see things as they 'could be.'

Genius and insanity are the same. Having either means you can see things other people can't. The trick is learning how to communicate it. In my case, I have poor spoken language skills but good written language skills. For normal folks, it seems 2 b the oposit. As such, I get shunned for being 'stupid.'

I also naturally avoid problems I don't know how to fix, or are afraid of fixing (because they involve causing negative emotion from someone else that doesn't understand why I'm doing/saying whatever it is I need to do or say.)

INTJs have it easier, they can just not give a shit a lot more naturally than INFJs can

INFJs are the most empathic type of all. So an INFJ would be the absolute last person or type NOT to notice the unhappiness of someone around him/her.
Other than that I do relate to what you said.

I think a better example might be :
INFJs are going to miss the literal text of what someone is saying to them, rather than the general vibe they get from that person.

Se is a function that is completely empirical. It doesn't mean they are good at noticing people's reactions. Heck, they probably notice it better, but don't realize someone is reacting a certain way. The INFJ sees how the person is reacting before they think of what the person is doing in the reaction.

To bold: And that's what makes us dumb to normal people. For them, if we can't see the basic things then we HAVE to be idiots. INFJs can at least give sensors the benefit of the doubt by saying: 'They see the world in a less complicated way than I do. Lucky bastards.'

 

[vince]

To bold: And that's what makes us dumb to normal people. For them, if we can't see the basic things then we HAVE to be idiots. INFJs can at least give sensors the benefit of the doubt by saying: 'They see the world in a less complicated way than I do. Lucky bastards.'

Ha yeah !

Exactly. It's a cruel world I live in. The fact that most people are superficial morons isn't enough. They have to think I'm the moron on top of it !

Seriously, this world = the movie "idiocracy"

 

[Arclight]

No Exit..
Ughh playing the video loop over and over in your head and trying to unravel what seems like a totally impossible squiggly ball of knotted string is awful isnt it. Where did it all go wrong?
Who started it?
Who's to blame?
Impossible to really know as both of your personalities and experiences set this all in motion from the moment you met.
I thought hard about replying to your thread, as I am going to have to 'out' myself as one of those bitter, Fi using nastier INFJ's. But,.. you're hurting, and right now, maybe a perspective from another INFJ who has similar traits to your ex girlfreind could at least serve to make you realise it wasnt all just you, and that maybe neither of you are really the villains here.
I have just been parted from someone in a very similar way to you and your ex, through oth our behaviours.
People like your ex and myself are usually very insecure about certainaspects of relationships, like trust, and confidence that we are loved. We try to control it by being very J and giving a list of demands as your ex did to you, the conditions you mentioned were the only way she would have felt safe and 'respected' enough by you, to go into a relationship.. essentially this is mostly her problem, but it stems from fear of being used, or treated lightly, and without respect.
As you say, at one point, you maybe didnt treat her or the feeling you had for her, and her for you, very seriously. For me, and maybe for her, this is like the worst fear coming true. A stark realisation that the love we are putting into someone is not reciprocated... a sort of mini death to an INFJ's ego, if theyre already low on self esteem. She may have wanted to offer redemption because at that point she wanted you, but in reality, the damage was done,.. and she stood as a secret judge jury and executioner on you.
Trust me, she would have wanted to try and get on with things, forgive and be happy again with you, but that hurt will have manifested itself in outbursts of temper, resentment, and being uber critical of you. NI and Fe can find the best way to really hit you where it hurts, and deep inside, she will have felt compelled to hurt you in revenge for you hurting her.
That was the pivotal point.
It happened.
Some people could have sincerely forgiven each other and gotten past that point, but a fearful, low self esteem, lonely INFJ cannot seem to ever get past a hurt. In a strange way, insecurity can look very much like massive ego, because we're so desperately tring to compensate for our own fears about how worthless and unlovable we are.
Bear in mind I'm talking about the 'unhealthy' kind of INFJ here.
So, to sum up,.. although you both made mistakes, none of these mistakes should have been enough to leave you both feeling as hurt as you both are.
this dynamic is too dysfunctional to ever really be repaired, i beleive.
the best you can do is understand that all this was in existence before you even said hello,... all that happened is that you two getting together, made the circumstances possible for all these unhealthy/insecure behaviours to have full reign.
Neither of you should beat up on yourselves, all the two of you.. or in this case, all YOU can do, is know that you tried the best you could at the time,.. thats all anyone can do.
You've learned lessons, she will have too, wether she ever admits it to you or not.
If you take anything from my post, please take this... a relationship is supposed to make you happier than you were, its supposed to be an enhancement in your life, its supposed to make you smile, when the dynamic becomes angst ridden, and full of fighting against each other, then its apparent that you were not compatible,.. too much arguing is never a good sign.
INFJ's of all types, healthy or not, are pretty intense, and im sure loving us can be a very very hard task at times, as we can never seem to get enough of the stuff
Trying to give that much love is a tall order, and mistakes will be made in trying to fill that expectation.
You've tried, now please,.. on wards and upwards and regain your happiness
G. x

Wow!!!

Ok now this post has the meat I am looking for.
I am astounded at how much you nailed things..
Yes My ex is also a 5w4 .. And you seem to understand what happened by knowing so little about us.
First off I am sorry for your recent break up.. It is one of lifes least pleasant experiences despite the opportunities it presents for growth.
What a way to learn eh?
If you are correct about her.. Then I am vindicated in ways that you can't or can imagine.
But.. ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT ON SOME LEVEL SHE ACTUALLY KNEW WHAT SHE WAS DOING???
See that would change everything.
It was bad enough that she constantly denied my perceptions (and believe me the things you said were my perceptions).. But to think she actually was punishing me is a very bitter pill to swallow.
I can handle negligence, stupidity, ignorance and carelessness and find a way to forgive.. But malice is a bit tougher.. especially from someone who seems so affected by the malice of others. How much more hypocrisy can I actually take?? My love for her starts dying at the thought and that is quite sad.
I will own what I did to hurt her.. I own it.. I was careless and doubtful and pushed her.. no lets be honest.. tossed her aside a few times. But it was my own confusion and insecurities. There was no ill will , no cruel intention. No want to hurt her.
To think that all that struggle was just her way of getting even, is heart breaking..

Thank you for sharing.. You might be an INFJ who uses Fi.. I am an INFP who uses Ni.. and I am sure I dreamed about two nights ago. All the old symbolism was there. But the cast was very different. and there was the long dark haired Brit chick who I couldn't quite place..
You don't wear rocker T shirts by any chance do you?

Again, thanks

 

[Arclight]

I was going to encourage you to share what happened, because it's really only in finally throwing it out there that we exorcise it from us. But it sounds like you hurt her inadvertently, and she is distancing herself, has distanced herself, or is punishing you in some way.

What I will first say transcends type; we are all responsible for our feelings and actions. If someone hurts you, it is ultimately you who allows it to permeate you and perceive it as hurt, as difficult as that is to accept. Conversely, if someone is nice to you, it feels good but it's not really about you either. It's about them, just as how you are in the world is about you; good or bad. You bring people into your life and assign to them value, just as others do to you. You need only be concerned with how you treat others, that's it. If you always give love, love will come your way. This doesn't necessarily happen on a case-by-case basis, indeed, doesn't usually happen that way at all, but a loving intent will produce a loving environment. That includes loving yourself of course.

When someone is "damaged" or has sustained a lifetime of hurt or abuse, they could bring to any relationship they have that inherent ego, and its bruises or scars. It very likely might be difficult for them to separate out where they end and others begin, because their sense of self can be harder to locate, which will make for haphazard boundaries that are always in flux. Unless they have done a lot of soul-searching and healing, and have learned by objective intentions to understand well where their boundaries lie, they are likely to not understand how to be fully with another. Healthy people have learned by the time they get intimately involved (which is one reason I am against childhood dating) where those emo boundaries are, for the most part. When emotional boundaries get muddied, it can be the hardest situation for an F type to navigate, especially two F types together.

What can we do when we hurt someone? We apologize sincerely, and if possible, figure out where it came from, but not so much to hash through with the person who was hurt, more so that the same won't happen again. Beyond that, we can only offer what we have to give and no more. If we offer something beyond ourselves, turn ourselves inside-out so to speak, it is doomed to failure because we cannot sustain a relationship if we cannot sustain ourselves. Again, this is where those who struggle to maintain their basic sense of self on a daily basis could have trouble maintaining a healthy relationship. Not that it can't be done, but it just takes more work for them, and work that, I believe, is best done alone, outside of a relationship. Then they can bring back that healthier sense of self to offer later.

Then we get into more type related stuff. If Love were enough we'd be living in Utopia right now. Love is one small piece of what makes two people work together. Being able to communicate, and communicate effectively, is paramount for getting along and not losing one's sanity in the process. The Fi and the Fe thing are very different ways of being, and I think breeds some of the hardest communication gaps to bridge. Navigating communication between Fe and Fi can be tricky stuff in even a normal situation. Compound this by an ego dysfunction or a stressful time, and it's like when a fishhook becomes imbedded in your skin. Your instinct is to simply pull it out, because that usually always works with anything else; but in this case doing what is natural hurts worse, you have to think counter intuitively to solve each problem, which is tiring. Consequently, no one usually lets a fishhook become imbedded because we are extra careful in future. If you keep handling fishhooks, however, and they keep becoming lodged under your skin, you will have a gaping, nasty wound that will take a very long time to heal. You can try things to avoid getting hurt, like altering how you handle it, or protecting yourself a bit more, but it's just the nature of the situation to a large degree. Until the Fe person and the Fi person each become more comfortable with Fi and Fe in themselves, communication can be difficult.

to you both.

Thank you.. this is sheer brilliance.. perhaps a bit late after reading Goodewitch's post.. But still very valuable.
perhaps I will share the whole story at some point.. But I am overwhelmed at the moment.

 

[Goodewitch]

No Exit
You ask if she in some way knew what she was doing?
Well yes, in the same way that an addict knows that they are destroying theselves with every hit they take. You know its bad, but you just cant seem to help it, or step away from the compulsive/impulse.
Lets keep it to the one specific pivotal point at which things seem to have taken turns for the worse.
You say you were careless and tossed her aside a few times due to your own insecurities, but that you never intended to hurt her. The intent (if shes smart) would have been obvious to her, she may have known you intended no malice, but the actions still whammed into her like a speeding train. The actions hit her full on in that vunerable spot that is her deepest fears. Its an unstoppable reaction, a lashing back out at you.. blow for blow was how she saw it. She may have wanted to stop the fight,.. but once you're running on fear fuelled adrenaline, your INFJ mouth engages and the verbal damage inflicted on the poor P person is heavy.
In all her venom against you, in her push/pull/hot/cold,..she was probably as sincere as you in wanting to work it out and be happy, but J cannot rely or feel safe with P when the J is already fearful and insecure. What a fearful J craves is security, definateness, consistency,..in order to feel like they're not balanced on a very wobby foundation.
Your P could not give that security, no matter what the inent was, it did hurt.
Is that her fault? Your fault? nope,.. just two different people getting together, each seeking something in the other that they could not give, cos they didnt have it.
She wanted security and certainty, you wanted to be able to figure stuff out and come to your own realisations without being 'directed' by the J.
Here are some of the venomous barbs i layed out to my P person whilst feeling hurt
'Youre weak willed!'
Pathetic!
You're insensitive and selfish.
'You couldnt make a decison and stick to it if you tried!'
You're messing me about, playing with me, changing your mind.
You have no real opinions on anything!
You're like a bit of driftwood.

Some of his to me..
You're standards and opinions on things are so rigid, and you're sooo judgemental on me and everyone/everything else!
You try to control me!'
You rant and rave and say the most horrible things to me
You're like a split personality!'
You're manipulative, you pretend to care about me, but you just want to rule my life.
'Dont tell me what to do and what to think!
You're venomous and hypocritical!'
Any/all of these sound familiar?
Meh, No exit, its just two incompatible people trying to turn each other into different things, a J trying to make a P into a J, and vice versa.
Its just one insecure fearful reactionary J, fighting for what she saw as her right to assert herself, and her boundaries, but in an altogether far too fear based reactionary way,... and a P who never really knew that his prevarication was causing so much hurt and fear.
two very hurt and bewildered people who like/love each other, but cant seem to be what the other one wants them to be.
So, if any of that rings true for you, think of it like this, neither you nor her are to 'blame' per se,... you both just chose the wrong person to get your needs from. In an ideal world, we would all take a step back from our emotions and motivations and discuss things calmly and rationally, but emotions and indeed human beings dont work like that.
Again, I'll say this, if its TOO difficult, and angsty, then its best to part with affection intact, and no hard feelings, if possible. yes, theres sadness it didnt work, but no ill will

Oh, and yes,.. as INFJ's are future orientated, theres every possibility I stole into the background of your dream, as a representative of your girlfreinds inner conflicts, complete with Rocker T shirt
Good luck, my freind, and dont be hard on yerself, its taken me to 40 years old to realise what I was doing and what part I play in my own downfall, cut yourself, and your ex some slack
Love G. x

 

[Andy]

INFJs are the most empathic type of all. So an INFJ would be the absolute last person or type NOT to notice the unhappiness of someone around him/her.
Other than that I do relate to what you said.

I think a better example might be :
INFJs are going to miss the literal text of what someone is saying to them, rather than the general vibe they get from that person.

Actually, the experimental evidence suggest otherwise. This site here lists male INFJs as being one of the types most likely to be "oblivious" to their partners unhappyness. They have the original source listed, if you feel like tracking it down and checking out more of the details. Sadly, it doesn't list how common such a thing might be amongst the females, nor suggest a reason why the differance might exist.

INFJ - Introverted iNtuitive Feeling Judging

 

[Skyward]

Actually, the experimental evidence suggest otherwise. This site here lists male INFJs as being one of the types most likely to be "oblivious" to their partners unhappyness. They have the original source listed, if you feel like tracking it down and checking out more of the details. Sadly, it doesn't list how common such a thing might be amongst the females, nor suggest a reason why the differance might exist.

INFJ - Introverted iNtuitive Feeling Judging

Makes sense to me. There's a difference between being worried about the others' happiness, and knowing their state of happiness.

To be honest, INFJs are pretty self centered... like pretty close to all humans.

 

[21%]

Spot on, Goodewitch!

I think it takes a healthy INFP and a healthy INFJ to successfully bridge the Fi-Fe gap.

 

[Thalassa]

Spot on, Goodewitch!

I think it takes a healthy xxFP and a healthy xxFJ to successfully bridge the Fi-Fe gap.

Fixed.