[Ti] ENFP & Ti

[Seymour]

The difference between Fi and Ti is that Ti takes objective point of view and Fi takes subjective point of view. Meaning when you take objective point of view, you look it from outsiders point of view and disregard personal feelings to the matter. When you take subjective point of view you look at personal values, how you feel about the matter etc. Fi doesent take outsiders point of view(objective) like Ti does.

I agree with Poki. Even though it's true Fi doesn't tend towards taking an objective outsider's view, it isn't so bad at trying on a subjective outsider's view.

As I talk to someone, I'm very aware of the mental model I'm building up of their feelings, what's important to them and the meaning behind their words As long as there isn't a core value conflict, I'm pretty unthreatened by trying on perspectives different from my own. Face to face, in particular, I find it relatively easy to understand why someone might feel a certain way or believe a certain thing, even if it's not my personal belief.

I found this confusing as a child, when I was puzzled that I could take on my Dad's perspective (he's an exceptionally inflexible ESTJ), but he couldn't entertain other perspectives in the same way. Maybe part of that is the Ne tendency to explore possibility without necessarily committing to it.

I spend a fair amount of time translating between people at work, and the ability to listen at more than a surface level comes in handy for that. I also think the ability to understand the perspective of others contributes to the INFP's reputation for being flexible and easy-going until a hidden value mine is hit.

Imo with Te and Fi its kinda like, since your preferred judging function is introverted, from that introverted point of view the extraverted judging function seems to take an objective point of view since from that internal point of view external things seem objective. But since Te is not your preferred judging function, you dont use it the same way for making decisions as intj or entj would for example. Its more as an categorizing/organizing function for you and you use it with Fi to make the final decision.

I think Te tends to be used more of an implementation (and sometimes validation) tool for most INFPs. It is sometimes turned to as a last resort, such as when Fi is inapplicable to a situation, or as a means to power through a huge backlog of mundane-but-necessary tasks. I'm hardly the most Te-enabled INFP, though, so I'm sure someone else could answer better.

 

[INTP]

I agree with Poki. Even though it's true Fi doesn't tend towards taking an objective outsider's view, it isn't so bad at trying on a subjective outsider's view.

but its not truly an outsiders point of view if you imply personal values in it. it might seem like you process the thing from outsiders point of view, but you are applying personal values into it, so its more like you are looking at yourself from outsiders point of view, not the matter itself

 

[Moiety]

OR to put it more succintly- if an Fi dominant learns to use the Ti skill set effectively, and becomes aware of the Ti perspective, is it so wrong to say that she's using Ti? Where's the turning point? Eventually the training wheels do come off, I'm sure.

This.

The difference between Fi and Ti is that Ti takes objective point of view and Fi takes subjective point of view. Meaning when you take objective point of view, you look it from outsiders point of view and disregard personal feelings to the matter. When you take subjective point of view you look at personal values, how you feel about the matter etc. Fi doesent take outsiders point of view(objective) like Ti does.

So you are saying that I, as a ENFP cannot be objective in that way? What exactly prevents me from doing it?



This debate is getting too subjective. Let's come up with some concrete examples people of what kind of perspective an ENFP would be unable to use proficiently solving a concrete problem.



To me, saying a FP can't use Ti is the same as saying Ss (a more objective and concrete and objective way of looking at the world, left brained) can't be an F (a more subjective and abstract way of judging the world, right brained) and that an N (abstract) can't be a T (concrete).

Besides, we know of mental disorders like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder etc etc...I don't see what's so far fetched here.

 

[Seymour]

but its not truly an outsiders point of view if you imply personal values in it. it might seem like you process the thing from outsiders point of view, but you are applying personal values into it, so its more like you are looking at yourself from outsiders point of view, not the matter itself

Well, isn't that true of introversion (in this case introverted judgement) in general? Objects are defined in relation to the subject, rather than vice versa (as is true for extraversion). One could claim that INTPs are always just looking at their own theoretical models.

Admittedly, Ti has a leg up on Fi, because it's both more easily communicated and has an detachable, externalizable evaluation system (logical reasoning).

 

[Moiety]

Admittedly, Ti has a leg up on Fi, because it's both more easily communicated and has an detachable, externalizable evaluation system (logical reasoning).

Fi has one too, it's called congruence. And if any FP tells you otherwise, tell him or her to go fuck themselves.

 

[Little Linguist]

So could the use of Te be an alternate judgement from Fi for the purpose of understanding without actually digging in with Fi and reaching a deeper understanding of the feeling itself. It does this through categorization of external logic or something.

I use this quite frequently in academia, and it serves me well. When I am working in the academic world, Fi is pushed back to 3rd or 4th position, which is probably why so many people believed I was an iXTJ type in high school, at university, and most especially now that I teach students in higher levels of academia.

One great thing about my development is that I feel nearly as comfortable using Te as Fi because due to external conditions, I had several more chances to develop my Te much, much earlier. Fi came later, thankfully, or perhaps I was only cognizant of my use of it later - it's hard to know.

 

[INTP]

So you are saying that I, as a ENFP cannot be objective in that way? What exactly prevents me from doing it?

Im saying that its hard for Fi users to take an totally objective point of view. hmm how could i explain it.. what ever introverted judging function you have, the opposite judging function will be extraverted. This is because you cant have both thinking and feeling as introverted functions at same time, its more natural to extravert the opposite judging function. If you take point of view that includes personal values/how you feel about it(Fi), it just is no longer an objective point of view(Ti). But if there is something that you actually cant form an Fi judgement about, then it would be more easier to use Ti on it.

 

[Little Linguist]

Because I developed a very strong preference for Te much earlier than Fi, I can use it quite confidently if I choose. It's really hard to know which is stronger because it begs the question: Do I recognize Te more because it is an extraverted function, or do I indeed use it more frequently?

The fact that I am unequivocally ENFP remains unchanged. However, for a long time, this concept eluded me, which caused a great deal of ambiguity regarding type.

Fact of the matter is: ENFPs can indeed be objective, but we use a different MEANS of achieving the same target. That is what I meant by Ti-users laughing at us ENFPs floating around in a gravity-free room while they have gravity boots, when we could have taken a different path and avoided the gravity-free zone altogether by putting on combat boots and a uniform and going through the rough area instead. However, Ti-users cannot access or gain combat boots or uniforms - they have gravity-free boots, so if they circumvented the area, they would sink in the mud. Ti and Te gets the same thing through different means.

 

[INTP]

Well, isn't that true of introversion (in this case introverted judgement) in general? Objects are defined in relation to the subject, rather than vice versa (as is true for extraversion). One could claim that INTPs are always just looking at their own theoretical models.

Admittedly, Ti has a leg up on Fi, because it's both more easily communicated and has an detachable, externalizable evaluation system (logical reasoning).

i know what your saying and think its true, its just that you are not using the exact right words in my opinion

what does leg up on mean?

 

[Poki]

Because I developed a very strong preference for Te much earlier than Fi, I can use it quite confidently if I choose. It's really hard to know which is stronger because it begs the question: Do I recognize Te more because it is an extraverted function, or do I indeed use it more frequently?

The fact that I am unequivocally ENFP remains unchanged. However, for a long time, this concept eluded me, which caused a great deal of ambiguity regarding type.

Fact of the matter is: ENFPs can indeed be objective, but we use a different MEANS of achieving the same target. That is what I meant by Ti-users laughing at us ENFPs floating around in a gravity-free room while they have gravity boots, when we could have taken a different path and avoided the gravity-free zone altogether by putting on combat boots and a uniform and going through the rough area instead. However, Ti-users cannot access or gain combat boots or uniforms - they have gravity-free boots, so if they circumvented the area, they would sink in the mud. Ti and Te gets the same thing through different means.

I will try and explain my experiences that I use to understand the move an ENFP makes from Te to Fi in regards to people. If an ENFP is interested in you they can go one of 2 routes. They can check for how they feel in regards to interactions and they can check to see if the 2 of you have enough similarities in certain categories or areas. The ENFP in the normal process of life has already categorized these things and allows them to use equality process. During the course of life they categorize these interactions for future use constantly growing in their understanding each and every step of the way.

Neither are Ti and dont have anything to do with what I would consider as logic but more along the lines of equalities in regard to the Te manner. Possibly like bitwise comparisons.

 

[Moiety]

Im saying that its hard for Fi users to take an totally objective point of view. hmm how could i explain it.. what ever introverted judging function you have, the opposite judging function will be extraverted. This is because you cant have both thinking and feeling as introverted functions at same time, its more natural to extravert the opposite judging function.

Are you saying this because your Ti arrived to that conclusion by itself, or was it your Si that was directly influenced by MBTI theories?

My issue here, is with it "being natural". It's not being objectively analyzed in any real way. It seems like a paradigm that was created around an idea of elegance. Yes, the Ti in me is also a fan of symmetry and the conservation of linear momentum...but I see many here adopting a very un-Ti way of looking at things...I don't think we are being very objective here and taking FACTS into consideration without personal involvement. I think there is a somewhat inherent logic to how cognition works, but some are basing their views on axioms that are being taken for granted.

If you take point of view that includes personal values/how you feel about it(Fi), it just is no longer an objective point of view(Ti).

There IS subjectiveness in Ti. Just look at Einstein's refusal in accepting quantum mechanics. That's a good example. You say Fi is personal values and how your feel about it. I say Ti is personal axioms (things you know to be true just as an FP has things which he knows to be right) and how you think about it.

But if there is something that you actually cant form an Fi judgement about, then it would be more easier to use Ti on it.

Well, exactly. What use is my Fi if I'm programming, or solving a riddle, or seeing how a mechanical contraption works?

Still, I notice it very clearly in myself...that even when dealing with people, I can detach myself from my own opinion on things. And coherence in dealing with analogous situations is paramount.

 

[Seymour]

Fi has one too, it's called congruence. And if any FP tells you otherwise, tell him or her to go fuck themselves.

I'm a little puzzled by your response. As an Fi-dom, I agree that Fi has its own internal logic (it's a rational process), and I think its judgments are just as valid as Ti's are. I just think it's harder to communicate and evaluate from a distance than Ti is. I definitely agree with your later posting that Ti has a subjective (if still logically-based) quality to it.

i know what your saying and think its true, its just that you are not using the exact right words in my opinion

what does leg up on mean?

It means "has an advantage over." Fi has its own strengths, of course.

 

[Chloe]

it takes a looot energy for me to use Ti ... and to read something written in Ti way. Te is much more natural.
When I've done maths I used Ne-Te

 

[Poki]

There IS subjectiveness in Ti. Just look at Einstein's refusal in accepting quantum mechanics. That's a good example. You say Fi is personal values and how your feel about it. I say Ti is personal axioms (things you know to be true just as an FP has things which he knows to be right) and how you think about it.

On a tangent, this reminds me of my son.

Son: "If this then this right?"
Me: "No"
Son: "But if this then this right"
Me: "No, didnt you just ask me that exact same question"
Son: "But if this then this?"
Me: "Do you not listen? What did I say?"
Son: "But if this then this?"
Me: "If thats what you want to believe, try it"

To me Ti is not so straight forward. My answer at times when I really want to explain is if you do this then this or if this then this other thing or if it happens this way then this other thing. Hardset logic really cannot be applied, you must achieve an understanding, but understanding takes time and experience.

So ENFPs CAN use Ti but it takes time and experience to logically understand how and why in regards to all the different paths.

 

[Moiety]

I'm a little puzzled by your response. As an Fi-dom, I agree that Fi has its own internal logic (it's a rational process), and I think its judgments are just as valid as Ti's are. I just think it's harder to communicate and evaluate from a distance than Ti is.

I think both Fi and Ti are all about congruence and coherence. So evaluating those judgements from a distance...is not that hard. If a person is bending itself to accommodate the context in his/her judgement, then he/she is using Fe and not Fi. Sure, feelings are slightly trickier to explain on paper, but after that is done, it's easy to see if a person's values make sense as all parts of the same puzzle.

That is why every FP should strive for excellence in communication (i.e. English or whatever language).

 

[Poki]

I think both Fi and Ti are all about congruence and coherence. So evaluating those judgements from a distance...is not that hard. If a person is bending itself to accommodate the context in his/her judgement, then he/she is using Fe and not Fi. Sure, feelings are slightly trickier to explain on paper, but after that is done, it's easy to see if a person's values make sense as all parts of the same puzzle.

That is why every FP should strive for excellence in communication (i.e. English or whatever language).

I feel like I actually bend with Fi, but it is generally because of my Fe. I try not to get myself in a position where I have to bend because of Te. It would royally screw up my internal logic and probably cause a tumbling effect, its easier to get past the emotional of taking a hit for Te then it is to screw with my internal logic and use it to bend. I do bend with Fi though as my values are in regard to being true in what I logically think.

 

[Moiety]

I feel like I actually bend with Fi, but it is generally because of my Fe. I try not to get myself in a position where I have to bend because of Te. It would royally screw up my internal logic and probably cause a tumbling effect, its easier to get past the emotional of taking a hit for Te then it is to screw with my internal logic and use it to bend. I do bend with Fi though as my values are in regard to being true in what I logically think.

Sure, one can arrive to Fi values in numerous different ways....but a healthy user of Fi will be annoyed at himself/herself if the different values aren't congruent with one another. Obviously in your case, Ti is superseding Fi, so it's a more plausible scenario.


I notice I have an aversion to how seemingly fluid other ENFPs can be when dealing with the world, but I've come to the conclusion this is due to me almost invariably using less Fe than they do.

 

[INTP]

Are you saying this because your Ti arrived to that conclusion by itself, or was it your Si that was directly influenced by MBTI theories?

i learned about this from mbti and verified it with Ti. I have noticed this kind of patterns in peoples thinking styles way before i learned about mbti.

My issue here, is with it "being natural". It's not being objectively analyzed in any real way. It seems like a paradigm that was created around an idea of elegance. Yes, the Ti in me is also a fan of symmetry and the conservation of linear momentum...but I see many here adopting a very un-Ti way of looking at things...I don't think we are being very objective here and taking FACTS into consideration without personal involvement. I think there is a somewhat inherent logic to how cognition works, but some are basing their views on axioms that are being taken for granted.

What if the "being natural" is analyzed by objective way of thinking?

There IS subjectiveness in Ti. Just look at Einstein's refusal in accepting quantum mechanics. That's a good example. You say Fi is personal values and how your feel about it. I say Ti is personal axioms (things you know to be true just as an FP has things which he knows to be right) and how you think about it.

have you considered that maybe einstein didnt accept the theory of quantum physics because he couldnt find an objective solution to it? It doesent mean that something would be looked from subjective point of view if you reject it because you can find an objective solution to it. The decision would still be made from objective point of view.

Well, exactly. What use is my Fi if I'm programming, or solving a riddle, or seeing how a mechanical contraption works?

Still, I notice it very clearly in myself...that even when dealing with people, I can detach myself from my own opinion on things. And coherence in dealing with analogous situations is paramount.

i didnt say that enfps are unable to use Ti. i told that its easier to use it when you use it on something that doesent allow you to use Fi on it.

 

[Little Linguist]

How can I explain it? When I am 'impersonal' in my decision-making or analysis, it often takes the form of cost-benefit analysis or step-by-step linear thought - not something that is associated with Ti, I believe, or have I understood Ti incorrectly?

Te is something I use all the time in my analysis (linguistic or sociological) and also in my academic writing. And since Te is the workhorse of Ne/Fi, it is 'comfortable' for me - SolitaryWalker addressed this one time when he said something to the effect of - and I am paraphrasing - you can use Te and it is only comfortable for you because it works in the context of something you enjoy.

 

[Poki]

Sure, one can arrive to Fi values in numerous different ways....but a healthy user of Fi will be annoyed at himself/herself if the different values aren't congruent with one another. Obviously in your case, Ti is superseding Fi, so it's a more plausible scenario.


I notice I have an aversion to how seemingly fluid other ENFPs can be when dealing with the world, but I've come to the conclusion this is due to me almost invariably using less Fe than they do.

I understand what your saying because I do hit Fi values and they constantly change and are 100% dependent on the situation. When I hit a Fi value I have to change the situation in some way or another. I notice that ENFPs are very flexible in changing things as long as it doesnt hit one of their values. They respect others Fi values and would like their Fi values respected in return.

So you would say that you err on the side of caution where as an ENFP errs on the side of adapting.

edit: to explain the Fi changing of values, its like 2 things cannot exist at once. I can have one or the other, but not both at once or if these 2 exist then this other thing needs to be present. Things like that.