[Ti] ENFP & Ti

[Poki]

Sometimes it looks pouty, sometimes its frustration, sometimes its anger. If you challenge it it may snap at you. When you understand it they can appear relieved. Overall it "looks" like emotions. Different then the Te portion and it generally goes 90+MPH.

 

[visaisahero]

Your Ne is grossly unchecked. That's a substantial analysis to make from almost nothing.

(Please don't assume that I'm angry with you or offended. I don't really have confidence issues in this area.)

1) I pointed out a false assessment which you posited- that an ENFP using Ti would necessarily look like an ENTP- which still holds true as an example of logical inconsistency.

2) I made it clear that in the hypothetical scenario that you were offended, it would be further substantiation of logical inconsistency.

How is that "substantial analysis"? By that logic, it would be substantial analysis to say "If A, then likely X. If B, then likely Y. If C, then likely Z." That's hypothetical postulation- not analysis. Your confusion of the two, again, suggests that your Ti is perhaps not as adequate as you might want to believe.

My Ne is self-evidently very active indeed, and I would be the first to admit that it often operates faster than I can comfortably handle- but it is far from "grossly unchecked", thank you very much.

That said, I tire of this. Let us suppose indeed, that an ENFP utilizing weak Ti does resemble an ENTP, that a hypothetical scenario can be considered substantial analysis, and that my Ne is grossly unchecked. Have a nice day! :hi:

 

[Lady_X]

i believe she was saying that an enfp with strong ti might look similar to an entp. that's the way i initially understood the point of the op. i get now she didn't mean that but it did seem like phoenix was posting under the same assumption.

 

[phoenix13]

1) I pointed out a false assessment which you posited- that an ENFP using Ti would necessarily look like an ENTP- which still holds true as an example of logical inconsistency.

2) I made it clear that in the hypothetical scenario that you were offended, it would be further substantiation of logical inconsistency.

How is that "substantial analysis"? By that logic, it would be substantial analysis to say "If A, then likely X. If B, then likely Y. If C, then likely Z." That's hypothetical postulation- not analysis. Your confusion of the two, again, suggests that your Ti is perhaps not as adequate as you might want to believe.

My Ne is self-evidently very active indeed, and I would be the first to admit that it often operates faster than I can comfortably handle- but it is far from "grossly unchecked", thank you very much.

That said, I tire of this. Let us suppose indeed, that an ENFP utilizing weak Ti does resemble an ENTP, that a hypothetical scenario can be considered substantial analysis, and that my Ne is grossly unchecked. Have a nice day! :hi:

OK, for the record, it was a joke. Mazel tov!

 

[visaisahero]

OK, for the record, it was a joke. Mazel tov!

 

[Kalach]

One is going to go ahead and assume you all know you are talking about behaviours and practices rather than cognitive functions.

 

[teslashock]

One is going to go ahead and assume you all know you are talking about behaviours and practices rather than cognitive functions.

+1

This thread is silly.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go show my INFP how to use Ti by teaching her a little C++. Then I'm going to hone in a bit on my own Fi by creating a really unique painting representative of my current emotional state.

doh

 

[SillySapienne]

Then I'm going to hone in a bit on my own Fi by creating a really unique painting representative of my current emotional state.

All jokes aside.

Whenever I paint/draw it represents my emotional state.

Fuck, whenever I do anything it reflects my emotional state.

Is that a human being thing, or an F thing?

I don't know, (actually, I think I do/may), nor do I really care.

 

[INTP]

...Ne-doms is to look at multiple things from multiple perspectives at the same time. A healthy Ti keeps things consistent and structured along the way.

maybe this is the key.

Ne gives too many perspectives to the thing that low Ti cant handle in consistent and structured way -> you easily pick up a route of analytical thinking(based on personal values/what you think is right from personal point of view) that isnt 100% logical(based on objective point of view) and kinda get lost in the way making logical decision.

I just woke up so i cant think of an example, but making a logical decision can take like 10 steps of kind of sub decisions(if 1+2=3 then 3+1=4...) that leads to the logical answer. If you make one wrong "sub decision" the answer will most likely be wrong, since you start to follow a patch of false logic in some point of getting to the answer.

just speculating

 

[Poki]

maybe this is the key.

Ne gives too many perspectives to the thing that low Ti cant handle in consistent and structured way -> you easily pick up a route of analytical thinking(based on personal values/what you think is right from personal point of view) that isnt 100% logical(based on objective point of view) and kinda get lost in the way making logical decision.

I just woke up so i cant think of an example, but making a logical decision can take like 10 steps of kind of sub decisions(if 1+2=3 then 3+1=4...) that leads to the logical answer. If you make one wrong "sub decision" the answer will most likely be wrong, since you start to follow a patch of false logic in some point of getting to the answer.

just speculating

Ne version of Ti from an ENFP is very spastic and bounces all over the place. It doesnt mean its not Ti, it means a "judgement" cannot properly be made with it. This isnt always the case though and in reality ENFPs are so unsure of Ti that even when they do use Ti in a half way decent fashion they still question its validity.

Logic decisions are not all "true". Logic contains false as well so to understand logic you cannot just understand whats true, but whats not true. Things that are not true are still "logic" and can still lead down paths. If it werent then a logic component like an AND Gate would only be considered logic when it returned true/on/1 as opposed to false/off/0.

Logical is not equal to logic. Logical is about finding the most logical solution or path, logic is more the system itself and all its paths be it true or false, on or off, 1 or 0. Dont confuse the logic of the system with a logical path within the system.

 

[Lady_X]

maybe this is the key.

Ne gives too many perspectives to the thing that low Ti cant handle in consistent and structured way -> you easily pick up a route of analytical thinking(based on personal values/what you think is right from personal point of view) that isnt 100% logical(based on objective point of view) and kinda get lost in the way making logical decision.

I just woke up so i cant think of an example, but making a logical decision can take like 10 steps of kind of sub decisions(if 1+2=3 then 3+1=4...) that leads to the logical answer. If you make one wrong "sub decision" the answer will most likely be wrong, since you start to follow a patch of false logic in some point of getting to the answer.

just speculating

right...interesting...so...can i ask is an entp able to come to a logical decision quickly? because this is interesting to me. i want to know the difference here....so ne gives you information and we with poor ti just go with gut immediately...and don't explore the multiple perceptions right off if we think the first one we get is accurate? or what?

 

[Amargith]

I'm going to make a guess on this and have it verified by the Ti-users here:

I noticed that in my job (my boss is a Ti-dom), I am incredibly uncomfortable with what my boss asks of me, because he assumes that i can do what he does. I seriously *suck* at problemsolving situations. Especially if i've never encountered the situation before and people are not involved (for example, logistics).

To him, on the other hand ,this stuff comes naturally. So, when at some point he left me in charge, which I told him was fine coz I wanted to help..he didn't bother to prep me for it. He figured it was all pretty clear. And..it was..however, I had to figure things out on the spot, missed several 'logical' steps to figure out problems that arose etc etc..it was a frigging nightmare. When I talked to him and told him that I wanted to help him, but he had to *show* me what he expected of me (Si), give me a concrete example of how he wanted things done, within which boundaries etc..he looked at me confused. To him, this is all so normal, to figure things out on the fly and organize the more complicated things...to me, it's hell. I can do it, but I will drop the ball more than once and I'll *never* feel at ease doing it, always questionning my decisions. It's like the ultimate way to punish me.

I can use Ti. But the second I can use *any* other function instead of that one, I will, coz it just makes me panic all over the place. I feel like a blind man in new surroundings when asked to make someone else a sandwich and no clue as to where the refrigerator is.

 

[simulatedworld]

combine Te and Fi and pretend its Ti

this


But seriously though, to answer the question, an ENFP using Ti would be an ENFP temporarily blocking out Fi. Blocking out influence from the auxiliary is a pretty difficult task for most people. Some evaluation would have to be made in impersonal terms that contradicts Fi's values, and trusted based on purely subjective terms. NFPs do make impersonal evaluations, but it almost always seems to be in Te terms. They tend to dislike expressing themselves in a Ti fashion because, as Te users, they don't want to claim logical support for something without empirical evidence, and as Fi users they don't like the idea of being selfish with their impersonal, non-values related ideas.

So it's something that will happen occasionally but seems to happen mostly in NFPs who have been forced to deliberately train that skill. As amargith (sorry I don't remember her new name atm) noted above, this is still an uncomfortable area for her and always will be. That is the nature of shadow functions--they require deliberate training and expend a lot of energy when used.

 

[Poki]

I'm going to make a guess on this and have it verified by the Ti-users here:

I noticed that in my job (my boss is a Ti-dom), I am incredibly uncomfortable with what my boss asks of me, because he assumes that i can do what he does. I seriously *suck* at problemsolving situations. Especially if i've never encountered the situation before and people are not involved (for example, logistics).

To him, on the other hand ,this stuff comes naturally. So, when at some point he left me in charge, which I told him was fine coz I wanted to help..he didn't bother to prep me for it. He figured it was all pretty clear. And..it was..however, I had to figure things out on the spot, missed several 'logical' steps to figure out problems that arose etc etc..it was a frigging nightmare. When I talked to him and told him that I wanted to help him, but he had to *show* me what he expected of me (Si), give me a concrete example of how he wanted things done, within which boundaries etc..he looked at me confused. To him, this is all so normal, to figure things out on the fly and organize the more complicated things...to me, it's hell. I can do it, but I will drop the ball more than once and I'll *never* feel at ease doing it, always questionning my decisions. It's like the ultimate way to punish me.

I can use Ti. But the second I can use *any* other function instead of that one, I will, coz it just makes me panic all over the place. I feel like a blind man in new surroundings when asked to make someone else a sandwich and no clue as to where the refrigerator is.

This is where the only instructions I need are the outcomes. Everything else is figured out on the fly. It just all falls in place and when I do ask questions I dont ask about "what" to do, I ask for explanations of how that area works. I generally know when I hit a logical hole as I hit a blank spot. Its like I hit a Y in the road and I dont have the understanding of that Y and where each path leads. I dont really want direction, but an understanding of each path.

I work much better on the fly. My current job does alot of "brainstorming" of how we are gonna do things, lets all talk about it. I cant handle this method very well, I feel lost. I have to work and figure things out on the fly. I got a request yesterday to do something and was basically told what was needed and let go. This is how I work. I have spent enough time growing up with people around me that dont work this way to realize not everyone is like this. I like working with people on a team, but cannot do collaboration or group "logic" and "thought".

 

[Lady_X]

this


But seriously though, to answer the question, an ENFP using Ti would be an ENFP temporarily blocking out Fi. Blocking out influence from the auxiliary is a pretty difficult task for most people. Some evaluation would have to be made in impersonal terms that contradicts Fi's values, and trusted based on purely subjective terms. NFPs do make impersonal evaluations, but it almost always seems to be in Te terms. They tend to dislike expressing themselves in a Ti fashion because, as Te users, they don't want to claim logical support for something without empirical evidence, and as Fi users they don't like the idea of being selfish with their impersonal, non-values related ideas.

So it's something that will happen occasionally but seems to happen mostly in NFPs who have been forced to deliberately train that skill. As amargith (sorry I don't remember her new name atm) noted above, this is still an uncomfortable area for her and always will be. That is the nature of shadow functions--they require deliberate training and expend a lot of energy when used.

so...i'm really interested in your opinion since you have said you know quite a few enfps. i don't know any entps.
so...if you're discussing something with an enfp and they hold a different opinion do you feel like they are just not applying logic and that they just don't understand you? what if they feel like they do understand exactly what you're saying but just came to a different conclusion based on their own method?

 

[simulatedworld]

so...i'm really interested in your opinion since you have said you know quite a few enfps. i don't know any entps.

so...if you're discussing something with an enfp and they hold a different opinion do you feel like they are just not applying logic and that they just don't understand you? what if they feel like they do understand exactly what you're saying but just came to a different conclusion based on their own method?

I have a much easier time with ENFPs than with INFPs, actually (same dom function and all), but ENFPs show a few of the same tendencies on a lesser scale/with less frequency.

If it's an opinion on the internal consistency of an idea, and they don't agree, I'm usually inclined to think they're wrong because I have my own subjective idea of what logic means (Ti) and I pay a lot of attention to the mechanics of language and its meaning.

If it's an opinion on ethics, with which many NFs are strongly concerned, then I tend to give them a little more leeway because I recognize ethics as coming from external sources anyway (Fe), so I'm less attached to subjective personal values--outside Ti's rules of logic, anyway. Of course, if an NF starts pushing his values on others, I'm inclined to take them far less seriously, mainly just to prove a point. You don't want to go that route with ENTPs.

So, I guess it really depends on the situation. Since studying typology I am much better at recognizing when someone has a different conclusion based on entirely different core values and, even if I don't agree, I can generally recognize the rationale that supports it. I think ENFPs are usually better able to convince me of their ideas than INFPs, as they're more about imagining new contexts for their ideas than about promoting their values (as opposed to INFPs.)

 

[Poki]

I have a much easier time with ENFPs than with INFPs, actually (same dom function and all), but ENFPs show a few of the same tendencies on a lesser scale/with less frequency.

If it's an opinion on the internal consistency of an idea, and they don't agree, I'm usually inclined to think they're wrong because I have my own subjective idea of what logic means (Ti) and I pay a lot of attention to the mechanics of language and its meaning.

If it's an opinion on ethics, with which many NFs are strongly concerned, then I tend to give them a little more leeway because I recognize ethics as coming from external sources anyway (Fe), so I'm less attached to subjective personal values--outside Ti's rules of logic, anyway. Of course, if an NF starts pushing his values on others, I'm inclined to take them far less seriously, mainly just to prove a point. You don't want to go that route with ENTPs.

So, I guess it really depends on the situation. Since studying typology I am much better at recognizing when someone has a different conclusion based on entirely different core values and, even if I don't agree, I can generally recognize the rationale that supports it. I think ENFPs are usually better able to convince me of their ideas than INFPs, as they're more about imagining new contexts for their ideas than about promoting their values (as opposed to INFPs.)

I am starting to go down the thought that the things that tertiary Fe struggle with are because they dont naturally allow Fi in others to proceed as far as it needs to in regards to understanding. Fe takes over automatically and adds color to a situation which changes the path of others Fi. I at times allow Fi to go down those paths seemingly alone, but everytime they turn around I am there.

 

[Lady_X]

if you think they're wrong is it because you think they're not understanding you? i'm curious about how ne and ti work together for you...is it an instant understanding of a situation in logical terms? because i feel like i instantly get things too..and get frustrated when it takes awhile for the other person to understand or assume that i don't because my opinion is different....but i'm truly asking because i'm not sure if the way we come to a conclusion has merit in all instances. is it just going with the gut instinct based on fi? and does that make it more inaccurate or just different?

 

[phoenix13]

this


But seriously though, to answer the question, an ENFP using Ti would be an ENFP temporarily blocking out Fi. Blocking out influence from the auxiliary is a pretty difficult task for most people. Some evaluation would have to be made in impersonal terms that contradicts Fi's values, and trusted based on purely subjective terms. NFPs do make impersonal evaluations, but it almost always seems to be in Te terms. They tend to dislike expressing themselves in a Ti fashion because, as Te users, they don't want to claim logical support for something without empirical evidence, and as Fi users they don't like the idea of being selfish with their impersonal, non-values related ideas.

So it's something that will happen occasionally but seems to happen mostly in NFPs who have been forced to deliberately train that skill. As amargith (sorry I don't remember her new name atm) noted above, this is still an uncomfortable area for her and always will be. That is the nature of shadow functions--they require deliberate training and expend a lot of energy when used.

Yes, I agree with this.

With the introverted judging functions, there's usually a system that has been built up and developed over time. With Te, you can look at evidence and draw a logical conclusion from it right then and there. With Ti, you need to break everything down to their "essence," formulate basic principles, then apply it to whatever external phenomena you wish to judge/explain. So, the use of Ti depends on processing that has been done beforehand. An ENFP (or any type) using Ti with no prior processing would look retarded.

ENFPs can be decent with Ti in specific subject areas where, for whatever reason, they've put the effort into looking deeper and deeper into why something is some way, which is completely unnatural for such a horizontal thinker.

 

[Lady_X]

Yes, I agree with this.

With the introverted judging functions, there's usually a system that has been built up and developed over time. With Te, you can look at evidence and draw a logical conclusion from it right then and there. With Ti, you need to break everything down to their "essence," formulate basic principles, then apply it to whatever external phenomena you wish to judge/explain. So, the use of Ti depends on processing that has been done before hand. An ENFP (or any type) using Ti with no prior processing would look retarded.

ENFPs can be decent with Ti in specific subject areas where, for whatever reason, they've put the effort into looking deeper and deeper into why something is some way, which is completely unnatural for such a horizontal thinker.

oh! very interesting so an enfp will instantly make their decision. it's super fast yeah? but ti takes longer and is more precise?