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[Fi] Need to Fi

TopherRed

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Aw, but my Ni and Se never argue with each other internally, what gives?
 

sculpting

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For me its not a rule, but a current understanding based on the pieces. I have always seen Fi as an understanding. To bring this to logic, even if I make a decision it is layered with all these other situations that could logically change things, but I stick with my current understanding and allow these other layers to just kinda float around as possibilities so its not really a hard set rule. This to me is my openness or fuzziness in regards to Ti. Each layer or possibility has hard set logic but I can switch and move between these layers. Its nothing hard set as a rule and more data can sway it if it fits into the puzzle at anytime. I try to control this data so its not so one sided though. This is how I keep my openness.

yeah I always thought of Ti/Fi as being very similiar oddly.

Fi mirrors pain or happiness
Ti mirrors logical paths/ideas???

Both form internal rule sets.
Ti is well suited for pure logic-rulesets requiring precision-and poorly suited to resolve complex human problems??
Fi likely is not ideal for pure logic but is good at very complex human problems-very fuzzy complex rules sets.

Both are learned via trial and error? So i have to feel my way through the Fi problem, to actually build Fi rules? A Ti user would need to think through logic problems??? And once built it can be hard to change them as I would need to re-feel a similiar situation and feel a different result while you would need to think through new logical rules???

(Does any of this sound right my favorite Ti dom?) :hug: I am blathering today.
 

sculpting

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Aw, but my Ni and Se never argue with each other internally, what gives?

Dont worry-I am a little weird... (meaning kinda crazy but in a cute harmless sort of random way unless you corner me and I verbally incinerate you :( )

i have actually asked other enfps about this dual judging thing and they dont all see it but some entps do see Ti and Fe sort of argue over what to do. I dunno about other types at all....
 

Poki

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Aw, but my Ni and Se never argue with each other internally, what gives?

Me and my wifes Ti and Fe argue alot. Or is it her FeSe and my TiNi...I think thats it. She gets into external perception and principle and I get into workable solution and possible ways to move forward:doh:
 

Poki

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yeah I always thought of Ti/Fi as being very similiar oddly.

Fi mirrors pain or happiness
Ti mirrors logical paths/ideas???

Both form internal rule sets.
Ti is well suited for pure logic-rulesets requiring precision-and poorly suited to resolve complex human problems??
Fi likely is not ideal for pure logic but is good at very complex human problems-very fuzzy complex rules sets.

Both are learned via trial and error? So i have to feel my way through the Fi problem, to actually build Fi rules? A Ti user would need to think through logic problems??? And once built it can be hard to change them as I would need to re-feel a similiar situation and feel a different result while you would need to think through new logical rules???

(Does any of this sound right my favorite Ti dom?) :hug: I am blathering today.

You saying I cant handle complex human problems:shock: :D Yes solving problems with current data on hand is not my strong point unless I have access to immense amounts of data(google is my friend) so I tend to proceed down paths so that more data can be obtained, analyzed and create these new rule sets that become more and more precise. I sit in Ti alot so they are constantly changing as new data comes in.
 
B

brainheart

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I am only every truly lucidly emotional when I am in the presence of other people usually.

Wow, that is so wild. I am only truly emotional when I am by myself. Otherwise, I tend to hide it. I mean, sometimes, it creeps out, but it's very awkward, not the socially acceptable way.

I find this fascinating...

But as others say about Fi, it's a judging function- it's something in your gut that says 'this is right' or 'this is wrong'. It can be very powerful. It may seem irrational, like- 'I can't explain why this is wrong to me, it just is'- but deep down, it's intensely rational, as in- 'Life must be valued. If life is not valued, the world will turn to ruin, for rampant disrespect/disregard for life in all its forms is unsustainable. Therefore, I will not step on this insect, I will not buy fur, I will smile at this panhandler no one else will look at.'

Fi is about universal values vs the values of an individual society. It's just rooted in internal self-worth. That's why some see it as selfish. But healthy Fi is about as unselfish as you can get, because you are always considering the cause and effect of your thoughts and actions and whether they are 'true'. It just looks different than Fe. Think St. Francis of Assisi (Fi) vs uh, I don't know... some Fe user saint... :huh:

Sorry to color this with my Catholic education, but The Fi-user would stand up against the errors of the church, where the church has strayed from the universal values, while the Fe-user would be a 'defender of the faith', I would think... Neither is more or less noble, it just prioritizes different things.

In my opinion, anyway...

Why do you need to develop Fi, anyway? You've got Fe... let it do its work, use it with your Ni to understand yourself and what matters to you.
 

yvonne

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You know-it sort of looks that way I guess-that I am nice. But I dont establish deep emo connections typically so the hurts I inflict are typically unintentional or not of deep significance. I think if I attached more deeply, I would have hurt more people in life.

hurt is a part of life. you haven't killed anyone, have you? it's not that bad. think of yourself in that situation, if you were them, would you forgive you?
 

Poki

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Wow, that is so wild. I am only truly emotional when I am by myself. Otherwise, I tend to hide it. I mean, sometimes, it creeps out, but it's very awkward, not the socially acceptable way.

I find this fascinating...

But as others say about Fi, it's a judging function- it's something in your gut that says 'this is right' or 'this is wrong'. It can be very powerful. It may seem irrational, like- 'I can't explain why this is wrong to me, it just is'- but deep down, it's intensely rational, as in- 'Life must be valued. If life is not valued, the world will turn to ruin, for rampant disrespect/disregard for life in all its forms is unsustainable. Therefore, I will not step on this insect, I will not buy fur, I will smile at this panhandler no one else will look at.'

Fi is about universal values vs the values of an individual society. It's just rooted in internal self-worth. That's why some see it as selfish. But healthy Fi is about as unselfish as you can get, because you are always considering the cause and effect of your thoughts and actions and whether they are 'true'. It just looks different than Fe. Think St. Francis of Assisi (Fi) vs uh, I don't know... some Fe user saint... :huh:

Sorry to color this with my Catholic education, but The Fi-user would stand up against the errors of the church, where the church has strayed from the universal values, while the Fe-user would be a 'defender of the faith', I would think... Neither is more or less noble, it just prioritizes different things.

In my opinion, anyway...

Why do you need to develop Fi, anyway? You've got Fe... let it do its work, use it with your Ni to understand yourself and what matters to you.

I knock the church not on what it preaches, but the effect it creates in the way it preaches. Its very essence of how it preaches goes against what it preaches, but the only reason I have nothing against it is because of the values it preaches. To see what I mean by the methods it uses look at cults that use church like practices. This Fi you speak of is what keeps the churches values appropriate to its mass and is like a self check of powers.
 

uumlau

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I can choose to not give a damn about others opinions-but never their feelings-unless I am doing something that may hurt in the short term but will be better for them in the long term. To hurt with no reason has never been okay-even for my puny Fi.

The love yourself though-this is weird as I have a great deal of self respect and self esteem. But there is something real odd about NeFiTe. The Fi has to judge the action for me in this case-the intentional hurting of another. Normally almost all other stuff gets judged with Te. But Fi is so puny, so ill refined, that it cant give a well resolved answer. It just says "BAD", no matter what the justification. Then it pulls out the Te machine of punishment and accountability. Like this:

Fi: mirror perceived hurt of another-BAD
Te: Well okay if you say so, even though it looks like logically this was really not the end of the world, and you can probably forgive yourself for this one. Was it really that big of a deal?
Fi: mirror perceived hurt of another-EEEEVVVVIIILLLL
Te: Well since you were evil, you should be chained in a basement and never released to interact with other humans you horrible monster. (while rolling eyes...)

this felt different-like Fi kinda of recrunched the math because the feelings didnt make any sense-the actual feelings were in disagreement. I dunno... I'll keep on feeling.

(This could take forever.)

EDIT: The others are always loved more than me. I put others before myself. It seems to be an Fi rule of some sort.

Fi isn't puny ... you're putting "Te expectations" on it. Fi will never give a well-resolved answer that you can state explicitly. The typical resolution you'll get out of Fi might be verbalized as, "Oh. OK," while a good resolution will be, "Oh, WOW!" That's why I get in touch with Fi and Fi-understanding by abandoning Te context. Not that Te isn't still there, but Te has explicitly decided that this is up to Fi, not Te. Te will just say something stupid to hurt Fi more, like "You're evil, so bad things should happen to you." You'd never say this to another person, don't say it to yourself. It's the Te-context that messes Fi up and makes the lake turbulent as it stirs things around.

I understand that others are always loved before you, though while I think that's an Fi rule, it's your Fi-rule, not a general one. Fi is your attitude and choices and priorities: the explicit priorities, etc., are different from one person to the next.

Hrm, I find myself typing and editing and deleting a lot at this point, trying to figure out what to say next, so rather than explain, I'll try to show.

Start at Fi and your feelings. Create that. From there, there are others, outside of you, whom you love, who matter to you. Place those in your mental image. Your love goes from your Fi/feelings out to them. So loving yourself seems a bit weird, right? The love has to go out, and there's no way to redirect it back in. You can't mirror yourself. At this point I kind of have a Venn diagram, where Fi is in a circle in the middle, and then there's an outer circle that contains others and the love goes from in to out.

Take that picture, and here's how to love yourself. Put a small flame/star/candle/sun in the very middle of the Fi/feelings. Make that your love. Don't ask where it comes from: that gets very metaphysical, and really doesn't matter. So that love comes from deep inside, then through you, and then finally to others. That is how you love yourself: if your source of love doesn't love you and warm you and show you how to become a better person, there is no way that you in your turn are able to actually shine that love upon others. In fact, if you don't properly love yourself, you block that warmth, and it cannot reach others. You need to understand love's effect on you, personally, in order to actually understand how to love others. Not just by mirroring their hurt and curling up in sympathetic pain, but by sharing yourself, your example, your warmth, with them.

FWIW, this is how I recognize Fi in myself and others in real life: some people just shine. What Fi lacks in terms of Fe's adroitness with individuals it more than compensates by trying to embody goodness towards people in general. (This is not to detract from Fe - I know many Fe people who also shine, it's just that they aim and focus the light to varying degrees.)
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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EDIT: The others are always loved more than me. I put others before myself. It seems to be an Fi rule of some sort.

I don't think that's attributable to function type. I do that too, as do many others, I'm sure.
 
B

brainheart

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I knock the church not on what it preaches, but the effect it creates in the way it preaches. Its very essence of how it preaches goes against what it preaches, but the only reason I have nothing against it is because of the values it preaches. To see what I mean by the methods it uses look at cults that use church like practices. This Fi you speak of is what keeps the churches values appropriate to its mass and is like a self check of powers.

Yes, I agree. But without Fe, I kind of doubt there'd be a church to begin with. If you want to have a religion, you need both.

Or look it like this:

The Civil War, there were two major issues- the universal 'wrong' of slavery coupled with the disintegration of the Union. Some Fi users (my guess is) would say, 'who gives a shit about the union? It's just some meaningless construct. What matters is we rid the world of slavery, because it is wrong, and that is the most important thing." But a Fe user (my guess is) would say, "There is value to the Union, to a community of persons. It is vital that we don't sever this permanently. We need to find a solution which is amenable to both sides." But both of these are good, important things. And yes, you do need both.

As far as the OP goes, I'd imagine trying to tap into Fi isn't going to produce the healthiest use of the function. I would think it would be best to rely on his Ni+Fe in order to pay attention to what really matters to him. For example, I don't view my marriage as important due to the social constructs of it; I view it as important because it makes me happy, it makes my husband happy, it makes my kids happy, and it would be wrong of me to hurt them, or to hurt myself. I want to be a good person of integrity, so I stay true to it. A Fe user may view it differently, however. (I don't really know. That's why I say 'may'.) But any way, both of us is going to see the marriage as a good thing of value.

But as far as the latest Church scandal goes, I would say the cover-up of the sexual abuse was Fe gone awry- "protect the institution at all costs", while the Fi would say, "This is a house of cards. Your desire to protect this is killing it." I'm not saying there aren't situations of Fi gone awry, cause there sure are, I'm just using this as an example of the sort Poki, I imagine, is thinking.

EDIT: Actually, Fi gone awry, in the case of the church, I would think would be the cultural shift toward Fi in the sixties of moral relativism- 'do your own thing' made people begin to see the lack of importance of tradition/ a church community. Vatican II (making the church more 'modern') caused it to lose a lot of it's significance. I think the Fi desire to make it more personal was a worthy goal, but it can lead to people thinking, 'Eh, why do I need this? I can be with God alone anywhere!' (As a Fi user, not saying I disagree with this- cause I stopped going to church years ago for this very reason, not to mention being guided by own internal values- but not exactly healthy as far as survival of an institution goes.)
 

Poki

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I understand that others are always loved before you, though while I think that's an Fi rule, it's your Fi-rule, not a general one. Fi is your attitude and choices and priorities: the explicit priorities, etc., are different from one person to the next.

With this said and Orobas explanation of how she uses Fi. You cant force that understanding or attitude no matter how stern, how forceful you try to be. It has to come through ones own processing and perception else you are speaking to their Te and making an external decision of how they are supposed to feel. This Te is needed to get past situations quickly, but it lacks that precision and doesnt clear up the muddled Fi that is in the middle of processing and feeling it out.

This is the struggle I see as Te becomes impatient with Fi. Both internally and across people.
 

sculpting

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I don't think that's attributable to function type. I do that too, as do many others, I'm sure.

sorry my bad AA, I meant it is one of my specific Fi rules-not by any means a general Fi thing at all. I find Fe to be amazingly beautiful in how it loves, so no limitations implied at all-just muddled wording. (Hey I smell Ti round these parts.......Hmmmmmm)
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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sorry my bad AA, I meant it is one of my specific Fi rules-not by any means a general Fi thing at all. I find Fe to be amazingly beautiful in how it loves, so no limitations implied at all-just muddled wording. (Hey I smell Ti round these parts.......Hmmmmmm)

Don't be so hard on yourself. You're awesome! :hug: :hug: :hug:


edit: perhaps so. Maybe i use N/F/T in every attitude all the time!!

edit2: Te: categorizing neatly. labeling properly. attributing appropriately ;)
 

OrangeAppled

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so can I ask you guys a question about Fi?

I can do the emotional mirroring innately-very strongly actually with animals or people, accutely painfully so.
I place myself in other people's shoes all the time.
But in the past I did not typically use Fi to make decisions-I use Te to logically find the correct path.

What is this mirroring people speak of? I hear ENFPs mention this more.
Only on a few occasions has my empathy been engaged unwillingly. I don't usually find empathizing to be painful..."mesmerized" might be a better word for me. There's a feeling of removal in order to get the "healing" done (someone has to stay calm), but there's also a recognition of & identification with the emotion.

When I hear Fi people speak of this "mirroring", it makes me think they have not developed boundaries, or I am too detached at times. I can be totally oblivious to other people's emotions if I feel like it. Only occasionally do I feel a sting of sadness at things I cannot help (or which are not directly related to my life), but it's easy for me to keep my original mood intact and move on with my day.
 

sculpting

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What is this mirroring people speak of? I hear ENFPs mention this more.
Only on a few occasions has my empathy been engaged unwillingly. I don't usually find empathizing to be painful..."mesmerized" might be a better word for me. There's a feeling of removal in order to get the "healing" done (someone has to stay calm), but there's also a recognition of & identification with the emotion.

When I hear Fi people speak of this "mirroring", it makes me think they have not developed boundaries, or I am too detached at times. I can be totally oblivious to other people's emotions if I feel like it. Only occasionally do I feel a sting of sadness at things I cannot help (or which are not directly related to my life), but it's easy for me to keep my original mood intact and move on with my day.

Do you think this is because you are actually really skilled at using Fi-so you have learned to be very selective about who you choose to engage with emotionally? (In contrast my Fi is primitive at best) This came up in the empathy thread and several other places. Ne just funnels-and potentially even amplifies-what pain I "perceive" others to be in. It can cause me a lot of stress. (Just me though, not sure how other enfps feel this)

EDIT-Just to clarify empathy is such a massive broad concept so in no way claiming it for Fi. I actually saw it mentioned as an aspect of Fe in the MBTI book.
 

OrangeAppled

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Do you think this is because you are actually really skilled at using Fi-so you have learned to be very selective about who you choose to engage with emotionally? (In contrast my Fi is primitive at best) This came up in the empathy thread and several other places. Ne just funnels-and potentially even amplifies-what pain I "perceive" others to be in. It can cause me a lot of stress. (Just me though, not sure how other enfps feel this)

EDIT-Just to clarify empathy is such a massive broad concept so in no way claiming it for Fi. I actually saw it mentioned as an aspect of Fe in the MBTI book.

I don't know....that's why I brought it up :D.
I think functions will work differently in different positions though (ie. auxiliary vs. dominant). It could be an I/E factor - I am just naturally more in-tune with my own thoughts than anything external.

In some ways, I think my ability to detach rather easily can be negative. I may lose perspective on my own emotion and become self-absorbed in my own problems. They loom large with nothing to compare them to.
When I have moments of empathizing, I do feel rather calm because I am not focused on me. I think there is a balancing and boundaries needed when it comes to how much you empathize & how much you detach. Too much one way or the other is not good.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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I don't know....that's why I brought it up :D.
I think functions will work differently in different positions though (ie. auxiliary vs. dominant). It could be an I/E factor - I am just naturally more in-tune with my own thoughts than anything external.

In some ways, I think my ability to detach rather easily can be negative. I may lose perspective on my own emotion and become self-absorbed in my own problems. They loom large with nothing to compare them to.
When I have moments of empathizing, I do feel rather calm because I am not focused on me. I think there is a balancing and boundaries needed when it comes to how much you empathize & how much you detach. Too much one way or the other is not good.

I don't know how you feel about this, but I read in my Hartzler functions book, that Fi as an advanced function can feel the emotions of others by running them through their own emotional data banks. I'll quote:

At high levels of discrimination, the Conscience has the bewitching ability to accurately assess other people's emotional states by reading his own internal reactions. The person then tends to provide benevolent attention and care for the person who really needs it.
emphasis mine.

What do you think? Do you think this is true?
 

OrangeAppled

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I don't know how you feel about this, but I read in my Hartzler functions book, that Fi as an advanced function can feel the emotions of others by running them through their own emotional data banks. I'll quote:

At high levels of discrimination, the Conscience has the bewitching ability to accurately assess other people's emotional states by reading his own internal reactions. The person then tends to provide benevolent attention and care for the person who really needs it.

emphasis mine.

What do you think? Do you think this is true?

I notice the quote uses the word "assess". To me, that's accurate. I identify the emotion, but I may not feel that emotion in the moment. There is a recognition of something I know or have known, and I can use that to extrapolate what the other person may be feeling. I say "extrapolate" because INFPs often report being able to accurately grasp that which they have not directly experienced.

I have helped people clarify how they feel by doing this also. I just offer suggestions and the person will verify that I hit the nail on the head. They sometimes get excited when this happens because they needed that clarification much more than any advice.

If I were to become emotional with them, then I'd lose that clarity though. When that happens (because it does sometimes), then I may egg on their emotion instead of helping them deal with it, which usually is not positive.
 

Poki

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I notice the quote uses the word "assess". To me, that's accurate. I identify the emotion, but I may not feel that emotion in the moment. There is a recognition of something I know or have known, and I can use that to extrapolate what the other person may be feeling. I say "extrapolate" because INFPs often report being able to accurately grasp that which they have not directly experienced.

I have helped people clarify how they feel by doing this also. I just offer suggestions and the person will verify that I hit the nail on the head. They sometimes get excited when this happens because they needed that clarification much more than any advice.

If I were to become emotional with them, then I'd lose that clarity though. When that happens (because it does sometimes), then I may egg on their emotion instead of helping them deal with it, which usually is not positive.

I do feel that emotion inside of me in the moment. In the way AA described. But I dont know why and sometimes it is an extremely fuzzy emotion that I cant really pinpoint. My wife can actually tell when I do this, she can sense that harmonization of emotions. She can tell when I drop to the same level she drops to. She knows I really care about her when I do this.

I dont understand feelings enough to bring it to your extrapolation.
 
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