[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Extraverted Sensing and Introverted Sensing - Se vs Si

[something boring]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.................. Thank you for the clarification. That makes sense.

 

[Kalach]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.................. Thank you for the clarification. That makes sense.

Thangu bery mutch!








And no one will ever notice the tiny piece of disinformation I included--Mwuh HAHAHA! Oh, whoops... is this thing still on?

 

[the state i am in]

you write very cleanly. do tell more about your perceptions of si vs se. se is both intj and infj inferior, what do you think about its usage in such types?

 

[phoenity]

An example of my perception of introverted sensing:

Sitting here now I can very vividly recall the sensory experience of my swim this morning. I've been trying to teach myself a couple different swim techniques attempting to increase the efficiency of my movement through the water. I internalize every swim session so that I can reflect on it and get some ideas of what to try differently next time so that I can continue to improve.

I walk up to the edge of the pool and dip my toes in to test the temperature - hmm it's cold this morning! I stand still at the edge waiting for the courage to hit me to just jump in, and the next thing I know I'm in mid air and it's too late to turn back now. The temperature drop steals my breath away and my body shivers for a bit.

I start out with a deep breath and a push off the wall. I feel my hands slice through the fluid medium guiding my body through the same line. To get used to the feeling of the water my first goal is to achieve perfect balance. This requires me to find a body position where my body is aligned and staying afloat requires very little movement. My body quickly finds this familiar position, and I'm floating on my back breathing shallowly and completely relaxed.

Once I have my body aligned and internalize the sensation of this position, I'm ready to start moving. I extend my arm into the water out in front of me and roll my entire body with it in the same movement and I start the glide. I shoot my opposite hand into the water out in front of me in the same way, and roll my body to that side. Just before my hand enters the water, I feel the water resistance with the arm already in the water and literally pull myself through and it passes out by my hip.

And the stroke goes on. I change the tempo and my body position on the fly and take note of how the water drags over every inch of my skin. I find this beautifully hypnotic rhythm and fall into a trance as I glide from one end to the other with as little effort as possible. My breathing gets faster and deeper as my muscles fatigue but I have to fight hard to ignore this sensation because I don't want to lose my rhythm.

My perception of time ceases to exist. In this state, I experience time only as singular moments that pass by as soon as my next movement changes my physical sensation. I finally stop due to physical exhaustion and inability to maintain balance, and realize that 45 minutes has just passed by.


I have the entire experience internalized, but it's mostly in the form of images and sensations. It took enough time to put that much above into words, but I think it gives some good insight.

 

[Kalach]

you write very cleanly. do tell more about your perceptions of si vs se. se is both intj and infj inferior, what do you think about its usage in such types?

We're talking some about it here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nt-rationale/14799-intjs-public-places.html

(And what Phoenity just said seems to dovetail nicely with that INTJ discussion.)



Also... but Phoe, your description above (and given your starsign of ISTP), is that Se recalled or actual Si? It reads a lot like what I suppose Se to be.


EDIT: also, as an addendum, does anyone else find it difficult to give a complement to other Se users? Tell an ENXJ, "Wow, you're beautiful!" and the answer will be either:

"I'm not beautiful"

or

"Yes, I rule!"

Maybe it's just for tertiary and inferior Se users.

In recent forum times, it was Poki I first saw mention that Se looks to Si for interaction.

And as a broad generalisation, it's beginning to look to me that, for perceiving functions, i/e opposites attract, while for judging functions, i/e opposites repel.

 

[phoenity]

We're talking some about it here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nt-rationale/14799-intjs-public-places.html

(And what Phoenity just said seems to dovetail nicely with that INTJ discussion.)



Also... but Phoe, your description above (and given your starsign of ISTP), is that Se recalled or actual Si? It reads a lot like what I suppose Se to be.


EDIT: also, as an addendum, does anyone else find it difficult to give a complement to other Se users? Tell an ENXJ, "Wow, you're beautiful!" and the answer will be either:

"I'm not beautiful"

or

"Yes, I rule!"

Maybe it's just for tertiary and inferior Se users.

In recent forum times, it was Poki I first saw mention that Se looks to Si for interaction.

And as a broad generalisation, it's beginning to look to me that, for perceiving functions, i/e opposites attract, while for judging functions, i/e opposites repel.

I've actually been trying to figure that out myself.

MBTI states that my auxiliary function is extraverted sensing, while Socionics states that one of my dominant functions is introverted sensing.

I seem to identify with the Socionics definition of introverted sensing:

Introverted sensing is associated with the ability to internalize sensations and to experience them in full detail.

Introverted sensing focuses on tangible, direct (because external) connections (because introverted) between processes (because dynamic) happening in one time, i.e. the physical/sensual experience of interactions between objects. This leads to an awareness of internal tangible physical states and how various physical fluctuations or substances are directly transferred between objects, such as motion, temperature, or dirtiness. The awareness of these tangible physical processes consequently leads to an awareness of health, or an optimum balance with one's environment. The individual physical reaction to concrete surroundings is main way we perceive and define aesthetics, comfort, convenience, and pleasure.

In contrast to , is related to following one's own needs instead of focusing on some externally-driven conception of what is necessary to acquire or achieve. So, whereas ego types feel capable to evaluate how justified others' preferences are, ego types will try to adjust to them in any way possible (given that it does not extremely affect their own comfort), wishing to minimize conflict.

In contrast to , Si is about direct interaction and unity (or discord) with one's surroundings, rather than abstract process and causal links.

1. Introverted sensing

SLIs are naturally good at knowing what kinds of activities and stimuli will produce which sensations and physical states in themselves and the people around them. They are highly sensitive to sensations of internal discomfort and dissonance, or when someone or something is aesthetically out of place. They usually take quick action to remove the discomfort, dissonance, or misplacement so that things "feel right." They are attracted to material (concrete) objects which produce the "right" sensations and physical states, such as stereo systems which produce the best sounds or clothes that produce the best feelings either through their pleasant texture and ease of use or through their aesthetic appeal. They dislike it when others deny them of pleasurable material objects and can get quite possessive and territorial when claiming or re-claiming them.

SLIs are skilled at recognizing and remembering their own and others' internal physical states and at imagining how different things would affect that state. When analyzing the behavior of themselves and others, they focus on these physical states and see them as determining much of a person's actions. They prefer to keep their lifestyle and living space simple and to avoid excessive, gaudy possessions and excessively complex living habits and duties. SLIs encourage those they care about to take the time to experience pleasurable and soothing sensations, avoid getting caught up in the hustle and bustle of everyday life, and to listen to their bodies and their sincere inner desires. They can be concerned with their own health and those they know.

SLIs are drawn to situations which allow them to maximize these physical states and like to dwell on soothing, pleasurable sensations, or the enjoyment of physical motion. They often seek physical and manual involvement in work activities. SLIs prefer to get involved in business projects rather than sit back and let things happen on their own (weak Ni too). SLIs are adept at portraying excitement and disgust through their physical gestures.

So my question to you, can you see the introverted sensing in the recalled experience I described above? It wasn't apparent to me before, but notice I only wrote about my direct experience and how it made me feel, and that I didn't include that I noticed external things, which would be Se, correct?

Notice how the experience was only about me and my interaction with the water? I didn't include any details about other people in my environment or anything that may have happened externally, simply because they aren't things I noticed, didn't have any relevancy to the experience, and I simply didn't remember them.

I could have told you that I noticed (Se) the female lifeguard watching me, and possibly only because she was quite attractive. Could she have been checking me out? I have no idea, and it didn't matter to me at the time, because I was completely immersed in my own personal experience.

I guess the reason it may read like Se, is that my experience is made up of recalled personal physical sensations and internal images, rather than external objects or images which would be easier to recall and describe. The way I experience physical sensations is a million times more intense and dynamic than I could ever describe through language, but I certainly tried. The best way I know of that you would ever be able to experience my experience was if you were with me and I showed you how to do it yourself. I could show you how to balance and align your body in the water, I could show you how to feel the water, and over time with enough concentration you may learn to experience it the same way I do.

Or maybe in the future when neuroscience advances to the point of being able to hook up my brain to a computer and record the electric impulses as I recall my experience, then other people could experience it internally.

 

[Kalach]

So my question to you, can you see the introverted sensing in the recalled experience I described above? It wasn't apparent to me before, but notice I only wrote about my direct experience and how it made me feel, and that I didn't include that I noticed external things, which would be Se, correct?

I believe so.

Working off definitions, it looks totally like Se, and not Si.

Extraverted Sensing occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail.

Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones.

I suppose you could have been storing that data while swimming, and in your own mind comparing the sensations to previous sensations, but the way you wrote it was of someone not inside his head comparing memories, but of someone right there in the moment having the sensations. Facing outward.

Dunno, though. Only you can say, really.


We probably need a confirmed ISTJ and a confirmed ISTP to compare notes on what it is to spend 45 minutes in the pool. Because if we're relying on this INTJ to know what's what, we could be in for a long wait and a lot of waffle.


Oh, EDIT to observe whoops: because you also say...

Sitting here now I can very vividly recall the sensory experience of my swim this morning. I've been trying to teach myself a couple different swim techniques attempting to increase the efficiency of my movement through the water. I internalize every swim session so that I can reflect on it and get some ideas of what to try differently next time so that I can continue to improve.

So, yep, I've definitely don't know which process is dominant for you.

What I can say is the actual swim experience you describe sounds like something I can recognise, so I'm understanding it as something I can do to a limited extent, so I'm calling Se. The part about internalising every swim session is not something I recognise in myself.


But hey, the feature of internalising the experience with a view to developing the skill, is that pure and simple Si in operation, or Se having fun in the pool and then running it through Ni for implications and future development?

Oy vey, can we get a variety of sensors in to state some real understanding of these issues? I don't like being the one half-guessing some answers without knowing my half-guesses are right.

 

[phoenity]

I believe so.

Working off definitions, it looks totally like Se, and not Si.

Extraverted Sensing occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail.

Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones.

I suppose you could have been storing that data while swimming, and in your own mind comparing the sensations to previous sensations, but the way you wrote it was of someone not inside his head comparing memories, but of someone right there in the moment having the sensations. Facing outward.

Dunno, though. Only you can say, really.


We probably need a confirmed ISTJ and a confirmed ISTP to compare notes on what it is to spend 45 minutes in the pool. Because if we're relying on this INTJ to know what's what, we could be in for a long wait and a lot of waffle.


Oh, EDIT to observe whoops: because you also say...



So, yep, I've definitely don't know which process is dominant for you.

What I can say is the actual swim experience you describe sounds like something I can recognise, so I'm understanding it as something I can do to a limited extent, so I'm calling Se. The part about internalising every swim session is not something I recognise in myself.


But hey, the feature of internalising the experience with a view to developing the skill, is that pure and simple Si in operation, or Se having fun in the pool and then running it through Ni for implications and future development?

Oy vey, can we get a variety of sensors in to state some real understanding of these issues? I don't like being the one half-guessing some answers without knowing my half-guesses are right.

Yea, I really don't know. To me, it was simply a sensory experience that I thoroughly enjoyed, and do everytime.

With regards to introversion and extroversion, I don't know, I give up on that part.

 

[Kalach]

We have a muddy pool! The pool is muddied!

(Chaotic Ps! Curse them!)

Se is in the moment. Si is in the form of the memory of the moment.

Someone prove me wrong!

 

[something boring]

I can't prove you wrong, but I can give a wordy rant on my own experience.
I spend a lot of my time in a dreamy, out-of-this world sort of haze, the very same one for as long as I can remember. Outside my own head, I notice (what I would like to think is) most of the sounds and movements that take place near me, and maybe some other things that seem relevant, or perhaps interesting. I notice other people, their moods and most or all of their actions rather acutely (which is tiring), but to be brutally honest, there are days when I arrive at work and I am surprised to see what shirt I am wearing, because that sort of thing isn't high on my priority list. Provided it reaches at least the standard I'd specify, who really cares?
Given my multitude of vague clues...

 

[Kalach]

You know what, I'm going to go ahead and say an extraverted judging process would be nothing without an extraverted perceiving process along for the ride.

Or maybe I should limit the claim to Se as used in NTJs and NFJs: both Te and Fe would be nothing without Se along for the ride. Both Fe and Te reach out into the world, but, to use a metaphor, you can't reach without fingers and arms.

Sure, Ni gives you lots to do by yourself, but without the Se in the mix as well, nothing would come to nothing.

I don't know exactly why I think this, but I do think it. Something about how if you don't have a sensing process somewhere in your makeup, then you would never find yourself in your own body or in the world.

It's the S is all of us that means we are, in a concrete real sense, here. Present. Alive. Part of the world.

 

[something boring]

I agree. Se gives you the tangible facts of the data. Ni gives you the overview, but Se gives hard science, metaphorically speaking. I think that Fe is relatively ineffective when Se is underdeveloped. Then again, this is just my understanding of it. What do I know?

 

[wildcat]

I'm having such a problem understanding this (go figure -- as the whole issue of Sensing is like speaking Swahili at me). Sensing is supposed to be my tertiary function, but it is by far the weakest leg holding up my table. Introverted Thinking is fourth process, but is stronger than my tertiary. I have no idea why that would be. And why would Sensing be a tertiary function when I know so many NFJs who GRAPPLE with the physical world?

I'll highlight what I relate to below:

*Se -- Experiencing and noticing the physical world, scanning for visible reactions and relevant data.

Being attracted to and/or distracted by changing external events. Adapting and changing your mind according to the situation. Focusing on facts. Asking lots of questions to get enough information to see the pattern. Going ahead and responding to raw data. Physical self-expression.

*Si -- (my deceiving shadow process) -- Recalling past experiences, remembering detailed data and what it is linked to.

Being heavily influenced by prior experiences. Distrusting new information that doesn't match. Assuming an understanding of a situation because it resembles a prior one. Focusing on facts and stored data. Giving lots of specific, sequential details about something. Rating and making comparison.


I don't seem to notice the world unless it's intruding on me or I'm actively paying attention. Being raised in violence and alcoholism surrounded by a terrible neighborhood has made me overly watchful, but it hasn't bolstered my ability to use what little I have of a Sensing function whatsoever. You'd think it would have. I'm starting to wonder (worry) that I have no connection to my Sensing side at all. My father is this way and he struggles.

Physical self-expression: I dress boldly, but I don't do well with, say, the romantic end of things because the minute I'm made aware of myself, I become too aware and I shut down. My sister is always asking me common sense questions or saying things like "When did you brush your hair?... yesterday?! Brush your hair!" or "Your pants have a hole in them. It's time for new ones" or "You're going to freeze. Put on a coat." Did I notice the hole in my pants? Probably not. Or if I did, I didn't think about it again. I don't notice the lawn needs to be mowed. Or the bills need to be paid. I have to concentrate really hard to remember that stuff, and to approach the physical realm as something other than scary or devouring or flabbergasting.

When a man/woman gives me a compliment, or tells me they think I'm beautiful, I turn into a block. I feel like I have no business drawing such a comment because I feel that divorced from the physical. You know, like an impostor. Not to say I'm awkward. I just NEVER get past being mystified when people notice me or when I'm magically NOT invisible.

My question is: Am I working off of my shadow more than I thought? can anyone PLEASE explain the Se and show me where it exerts any force on me at all?

The tertiary function is an underhand.
The complementary function is to be found on the other side of the pale.

It is a shadow function.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

I'm having such a problem understanding this (go figure -- as the whole issue of Sensing is like speaking Swahili at me). Sensing is supposed to be my tertiary function, but it is by far the weakest leg holding up my table. Introverted Thinking is fourth process, but is stronger than my tertiary. I have no idea why that would be.

Maybe it's just that you're INFJ.

 

[chris1207]

Maybe it's just that you're INFJ.

That's exactly what I was thinking! That would make for a much simpler topic. Maybe too simple for Pink. :hi:

They say that you begin to truly develop your tertiary function around the age of 25 or 30 and that certainly is the case with me. Just a few months ago this board really changed my perspective on life for the good. There were just a lot of great topics that really clicked with me and helped me understand how the world works.

Now, I find that I'm using a function that I equate with Se all the time. Because Fe isn't so overburdened by the duties of dealing with the extroverted world I've become more bold in facing my world. I speak my mind a whole heck of a lot more. When something happens outside of me, my first thought is, "How do I feel now that this is going on/I know this?"

I now no longer pay as much attention to temporality, rarely looking at the clock/my watch if I don't have to work. I consult my own reactions and feelings when I have to make a decision and go with what I really want rather than following a schedule.

I find myself touching all over things to feel their texture. As I type, I'm noticing the feeling of the keys and the way they rebuff against my presses with a kind of pop. You don't have to notice everything in your environment to be experiencing Se, you just have to be attentive of what you ARE perceiving.

I tell ya, it's all quite wonderful. I find myself connecting with people that I never have and a much deeper level than I ever thought I would. My openness and frankness rather than being a source of conflict, is a window into who I am. I don't have to be completely closed-off and independent nor do I have to be ready for every situation that I face, I just need to get out there and face it!

 

[Feline]

Also, I tend to feel invisible a lot as well, although in my case, I usually am. Sometimes I want to say something to someone, and I feel like I'm saying it, but they're not hearing it.

Wow. If any infjs feel like this and can explain this kind of experience further I would be very interested! I have a relative who sometimes acts as if this is what is happening to her, however, from my point of view she is just imagining that we are not hearing her. It will happen during specific conversations. But also she goes through longer periods where she feels that we don't understand her. I always interpret it as a sign of stress, but don't understand exactly how it's working in her mind.