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[ENFJ] Trying to need less contact, but struggling. ENFJ with an INTP

Salomé

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it seems pretty clear she loathes having those negative feelings of envy and resentment and isn't trying to foster them, and specifically was asking how to change herself to better understand and accommodate his needs.

*shrug*

Relationships don't work unless they work for both people.
I don't think she is trying to foster those feelings. I just wonder why a rant like that gets followed by a comment like:

aww. you seem like a really nice person.

And further ranting about how IxTPs suck in relationships. He sounds like a nice guy to me and she sounds like she's gonna blow it with the cringeful neediness.

Fe. I'm never gonna understand it.
 

proteanmix

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Why must Fs be attracted to the very qualities that they find so repellent?:huh:

I don't think you were necessarily addressing me, but I want to make this point. I have IxTP immediate family members. My particular observations are from the POV of being in a family together, which requires a different kind of relating. If this was an ENFJ having difficulties with her relationship with her INTP father, it's tougher to navigate because of the factors particular to a familial relationship. I think the distance in a parent/child relationship would be unwarranted. ETA: It wouldn't be "cringeful neediness" it would be an mentally and emotionally absent father. I can see some serious daddy issues down the line. So my point in all this wasn't a bitchfest towards IxTPs, just that I've had similar experiences with them as family.

This of course depends on what type of ideas and expectations people have on how family works. Some people view their romantic relationships as their primary relationships, whereas I view my family relationships just as important as romantic ones...that bond will always be there. I am naturally more tolerant of family members who will always be my blood and will almost always get the benefit of the doubt and the extra effort vs. a relationship that I can leave if it's too much work to relate.
 

Salomé

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^I read your posts and I don't think they are characteristic of IxTPs. I'm not like that with my family, or anyone I love. Nor are any of the IxTPs I know - all devoted to their families.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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I don't think you were necessarily addressing me, but I want to make this point. I have IxTP immediate family members. My particular observations are from the POV of being in a family together, which requires a different kind of relating. If this was an ENFJ having difficulties with her relationship with her INTP father, it's tougher to navigate because of the factors particular to a familial relationship. I think the distance in a parent/child relationship would be unwarranted.

This of course depends on what type of ideas and expectations people have on how family works. Some people view their romantic relationships as their primary relationships, whereas I view my family relationships just as important as romantic ones...that bond will always be there. I am naturally more tolerant of family members who will always be my blood and will almost always get the benefit of the doubt and the extra effort vs. a relationship that I can leave if it's too much work to relate.

I've noticed this concept too. Some seem to invest more in their primary relationships, and some more in their blood relationships (siblings, children, parents). I find it fascinating and am curious what motivates each type of behavior. I am more in the aforementioned group, but I was not close to my family growing up (and was adopted as well). Friends who fall in the second group don't have as good a bond with their s.o., yet put a LOT of energy into the blood relationships, more than in their 'primary' relationship, and were very close to their families growing up.


Edit: i am not relating this to type at all.
 

Totenkindly

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....He sounds like a nice guy to me and she sounds like she's gonna blow it with the cringeful neediness. Fe. I'm never gonna understand it.

yeah, she sounds like she values him (lots of glowy stuff she refers to) because aside from this "distance" issue he's doing a lot of good things; and I would be very cautious about dumping the contents of this thread on him directly because frankly it might easily be over-emo-whelming.

One doesn't want to destroy a good thing by overfretting about an aspect that can be fixed.

... I find INFPs are actually a lot more emotionally self-contained.

Yeah, I think a lot of that agonizing happens internally. The ones I know in real life almost don't say enough, they're afraid of dumping their stuff on others. I have to literally sometimes invite them to be more open... and then I get some of it... and often it's STILL restrained.
 

Spamtar

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i'd advise sending naughty pics to his email around the middle of the week.

This (above) is a good primer.

I could imagine you framing the initial OP post to an INTP male and him watching your lips move but the volume in his head would almost fall to zero.

We, or admittedly myself (although I have gotten 'better'), can be very oblivious in relationships. Maybe if you break it down to the most simple dynamics and pragmatics as if you were talking to an ISTP about their car.

1. I am different than you.
a. where you don't need A,B, and C I need it.
b. If I don't get A,B, and C I will have to go and find somebody else.
c. If I go I still cant have sex with you.
d. If I do get A,B and C I can stay.
e. Will you give me A, B and C (or a close proximity expect him to see if he can hold off and maybe ask a little more at the beginning so it will seem like a compromise)
f. Close with "I got to go right now, think about it for a bit and get back to me." (INTP hate to be cornered with these types of ultimatums and forced judgment/commitment thereon, don't let him just surrender (the 'INTP false surrender') because it will mean less. Rather set up a time/date for a follow up closure on the issue. If he looks anxious when you leave him to dwell on it you did it right)

PS. Rightfully or wrongfully understand a lot of this underlying neediness is about you and most INTPs are low maintenance and do better with mates who are low maintenance. So maybe its better to read the the writing on the wall and act accordingly for the long run.
 

Sunshine8

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Thanks for the feedback - makes a lot of sense

Thank you so much to everyone who wrote.
:hug:
Even those who were critical - all sides are good to hear.

I agree with the importance of trying to be honest about my needs without getting too clingy or emotional about it. The idea of sitting down and working out how best to tackle this is an interesting suggestion - my first recourse is to think about how I can change myself to fit what he wants rather than to change or even really commence 'tactics'.

In my brain I can say to myself 'you know he loves you, chill out' but because it seems to come naturally for me to want to do nice things for him, it seems to point the other way (as in that he musn't really care) when he has his nutty professor hat on and doesn't think to do them for me. This would be most of Mon-Fri.

So much of what you all wrote have given me a more positive perspective. I still do like the idea of a support group though! The things an INTP brings to a relationship are so precious, but it can sometimes feel like balls of the most rich pate, for which you can eat to a point but sometimes you need a chicken leg. Mostly though, we are very happy. I also suspect that the distance thing is particularly bad for a relationship with an INTP. It makes it too easy for him to bury himself in multiple episodes of Farscape!

So what is so fascinating about the INTP to this ENFJ?

*The unconventional side of the INTP. Happy to dress up in weird clothes or go against the mainstream. Kindred spirits!

*They can say 'no' to a barbeque if they don't want to go.

*Passion: He can seems to be so calm, but when we talk politics and literature-he is so passionate! We can argue about ideas.

*He gives a shit about what is happening in the world - although mainly on the big picture level. So while he won't be fully switched on to what is happening in his own life, he will be very aware of the political climate etc. Which is great because I study politics!

*Being with an INTP I feel that I an expand and grow. I don't feel I have to subscribe to a certain way of being - he is not going to expect me to be home every night with a frilly apron on.

*I can love my INTP while still having a good amount of time (and emotional energy!) to have other significant friendships and relationships with family. I haven't had a single comment along the lines of 'you never have any time for me anymore' etc that can sometimes be said by family/friends when you get into a relationship.

*And there is the personal time spent together. It is like being two kids in a cave with a flashlight, or out on a trail seeing where it would go.

*I really need my quality time alone, and I definitely get that with my INTP. In my other relationships (such as friendships, and when I was growing up wth my family) it is mostly me who has had the higher need for solitude, because I was often the 'fixer' or 'helper'. That is probably why it feels a bit humiliating to seem this needy! I am trying to change this, and I guess I have found quite a hole in my self-esteem. Any suggestions on how to tackle this one would be really appreciated. I love my solitude, but too much time away from my SO and my feelings start to change ie: .:confused: then :azdaja: or I :run: for the hills. I have also unfortunately in a past relationship run into the arms of someone else, which is no solution at all. I want to change this pattern.

:hug::nerd::doh:

*he can, at times, be incredibly perceptive about the emotional state of another person who is not being obvious about it. It is nearly always with someone who he isn't particularly close to. He has commented about someone in a very deep way when I haven't even noticed their state. I like being wrong sometimes! I admire his delicacy that way. It is very attractive!

*He has a strong sense of right and wrong. So even though he bucks the establishment on whether or not to attend family gatherings, etc, deep down, the sound ethics are there. I know that if anything happened to me, he would be there in a significant and concrete way. I admire that.

Philosophical question

What I wonder, is: could the N in the INTP means that from a young age they are able to sense when something isn't right or if people are asking something of them, but without the strong F they don't often 'know' instinctively how to deliver on that.

When you couple that with the 'impending doom/fear of failure' which is supposed to be an INTP undercurrent, should it be that surprising that too many 'social' needs = feelings of pressure and discomfort, fear of not being able to deliver? I also suspect that many INTPs had very strong mothers (smothers?) What are people's thoughts on this?

Man, I only wish I could make my heart and feelings follow my head instead of the other way around!

Being an NF is a little like having the window to your unconscious permanently stuck open, and so to try to make life a bit more comfortable you pull across the curtains...but when the wind blows...
 
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So make it easy for him to succeed in "pleasing you". Tell him what you want. If he cares, he'll be happy to oblige, and quite grateful you've already done half the work.

Don't try to turn yourself into a human pretzel. You'll regret it, and eventually the truth will unfold. So if you're looking for long-term with him, I say straight-shooting all the way.

You care deeply for him, I can tell. He must have done something to deserve that. So chill a bit. I'm sure with better communication and understanding (and information), you'll be just fine. If not, there are plenty of fish in the C ;)
 

runvardh

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If I'm in the middle of things I could go a week with out contact too; then other weeks I'd be in contact every couple days. I suppose I'm not as oblivious as most INTPs are said to be, but I have a few areas of my own that turn a lot of Es off as well. Even when I'm able to guess (and yes it is guessing) correctly I still would rather be told what a girl damn well wants.
 

Spamtar

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From how you (the OP) speak I think your INTP is quiet fond of you.
 

Salomé

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You two seem great together. Actually, that would be my ideal relationship. Living apart 5 days out of 7. Only doing fun stuff together. He might be reluctant to give that up.

What I wonder, is: could the N in the INTP means that from a young age they are able to sense when something isn't right or if people are asking something of them, but without the strong F they don't often 'know' instinctively how to deliver on that.
Our N isn't usually directed towards people, but towards ideas. If we focus on people it's more from a problem-solving perspective and for a discrete period of time. The person as a system.
So we can be objectively intuitive about people and their problems, but that's a far cry from the NF personal approach.
 

kiddykat

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I don't think I have ever felt this bad before. In so many ways 'on paper' my life is great. But this pain is dreadful. Why can't I just be more TTTTT??!!!!

Don't try to turn yourself into a human pretzel. You'll regret it, and eventually the truth will unfold. So if you're looking for long-term with him, I say straight-shooting all the way.

You care deeply for him, I can tell. He must have done something to deserve that. So chill a bit. I'm sure with better communication and understanding (and information), you'll be just fine. If not, there are plenty of fish in the C ;)
Wise words.

Perhaps it would help to assess what your needs/wants are as well as his? If they match up, then great. Be honest though. If the two of you do wind up moving in together, there still has to be some kind of communication, especially if the interaction is on a daily basis, no?

To give him a fair chance, at least let him know about your concerns? It still may work out in the end. Btw- my step-dad is an ISTP (confirmed), who is very attentive towards my mom. So maybe give him a little nudge? Best of luck.
 

Domino

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I felt rather starved out myself, sunshine, though I chalk it up to the particular guy I was dating and not the whole type.

When I felt ignored or neglected, I blew smoke up his skirt. Before we started dating, the INTP would literally flee from me which I found frustrating and off-putting. I could never get him to talk to me for long because he was always dashing off like a scared rabbit.

So I began leaving lipstick kisses on the driver's window of his (meticulously clean) car. He never caught me doing it, and there was a new one every day, next to the ones before it, in different shades. I noticed the car stopped being washed. When he found out the kisses were from me, he blushed violently and told me he would never wash the car again.

There are ways of getting someone's attention and have them acknowledge you without going to extremes. Though Digest had a good idea... lol
 

Synarch

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The flip side to the low need for contact is that INTPs are generally low-maintenance, so your time is your own to play with and to enjoy. It's not so fun in the early stages, but you only have to see a woman whose husband won't give her a moment's peace to appreciate a nice, easy going INTP.

Great point, cafe.

I can tell you from experience that it sucks to always feel like the needier party. It makes you hover more, or get emotional, both of which are going to annoy the other person and make them less likely to ante up with what you need. T types are always going to be able to feel more detached than you. Introverted T types are also going to be fine without a whole lot of regular contact and don't see why you can't do the same.

Agree with the first sentence. BUT. T types do not always feel more detached! As someone who has dated introverts, this is not the case! I often have the more palpable need to feel "attached". Maybe this is why Edgar thinks I am ENFP. I dunno.

I'm sorry to say this, but it doesn't sound like the makings for a good, healthy ltr. Unless you were going to become poly or something and have your needs met by someone else, that are lacking from your INTP. It just shouldn't be that hard at the beginning. It should be easy now, for it WILL get hard later. :hug:

It's only hard because they live 2 hours away. I doubt it would be this way otherwise. Or at least, it seems likely.

So I began leaving lipstick kisses on the driver's window of his (meticulously clean) car. He never caught me doing it, and there was a new one every day, next to the ones before it, in different shades. I noticed the car stopped being washed. When he found out the kisses were from me, he blushed violently and told me he would never wash the car again.

An INTP with a clean car? Sounds suspicious as all get out.
 

Synarch

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Red flag number one, perhaps.

I've yet to meet an INTP with a clean car, house, etc. Well, INTP females are likely different. My INTP friend doesn't even notice if I hide things from him.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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You two seem great together. Actually, that would be my ideal relationship. Living apart 5 days out of 7. Only doing fun stuff together. He might be reluctant to give that up.


.

Great from his perspective. But if an NF is feeling the need to bond, and bond often, it's doubtful she's going to be able to be content in that. Unless she is truly able to look at the time away from him as a way to connect and do things with others to get what she needs; but usually appreciating that concept comes with life experience, and time, maturity, etc. It's very hard to accept that in the throes of new love, as sensical as it sounds.

To the OP: As an Fe dom, you are driven to connect with others. Have you given much thought to the notion that others might be able to fill the gap left from your INTP? I don't necessarily mean in a romantic way, but would it be rewarding for you to use groups or work or other means to satisfy you while your INTP keeps his space? Is it difficult for an Fe dom to count on just one person to meet the majority of his or her needs? Is that fraught with peril? Is it a situation that others find difficult because it hard to live up to the Fe dom's needs and standards and ideals? I'm just questionning the prudence of an Fe dom expecting to be fulfilled in a monogamous relationship period, much less with an INTP who craves their space. I'm curious about that..........
 

proteanmix

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Sunshine you've gotten some good advice. :)

Great from his perspective. But if an NF is feeling the need to bond, and bond often, it's doubtful she's going to be able to be content in that. Unless she is truly able to look at the time away from him as a way to connect and do things with others to get what she needs; but usually appreciating that concept comes with life experience, and time, maturity, etc. It's very hard to accept that in the throes of new love, as sensical as it sounds.

I agree with this. I so often feel like a Debbie Downer, but I'll just say it anyway. You tell him what's up, he's receptive and agrees to increase how often you contact each other. So now you see him on the weekend and you make some type of contact during the week. I just wonder how much of a stretch it would be for him to increase his efforts of contact and how long he can sustain it without it feeling like "work" to him and put a strain in the relationship that wasn't there before.

A bit of the greatness of this relationship is precisely because you all only hang out on the weekends. You try to make that time as rich and meaningful as possible, you're ignoring and stuffing your feelings those other times. He's in his comfort zone, but you're out of yours. And you wanting to bring more equality in the comfort zones leaves you feeling needy and clingy. I really hate those words because I feel like (at least on the forum), they're leveled at Fe-doms (IxFJs get somewhat of a pass because they're introverted) as a way of discounting our needs. "You're just making excessive demands on people's time."

When I see people constantly texting their SOs, calling each other 4 and 5 times and day, I'm like whoa that's a bit much. In my most attentive relationship, we'd meet up for lunch twice a week because we were on the same side of campus and go out on Saturday night. When semesters changed, we still saw each other twice a week, go out Saturday and occasionally study together on Sunday. We didn't talk on the phone that much, although we would instant message if we were both on our computers. I personally felt satisfied with that and I didn't hear any complaints.

I'm a huge proponent of not making your SO your whole life. Keep your friends, keep doing the things that made you feel fulfilled before you got into the relationship. Sunshine, I don't know what type of activities you engage in outside of your relationship so it is good advice to not let your SO be your primary connective outlet.

Is it difficult for an Fe dom to count on just one person to meet the majority of his or her needs? Is that fraught with peril? Is it a situation that others find difficult because it hard to live up to the Fe dom's needs and standards and ideals? I'm just questionning the prudence of an Fe dom expecting to be fulfilled in a monogamous relationship period, much less with an INTP who craves their space. I'm curious about that..........

I think this part is actually where Fe doms get into a lot of trouble. I've seen more complaints that people can never tell if one is just "being nice" or if there's a more meaningful attachment. I have different friend groups because I have different needs. I have my inner circle, I have my go out and party friends, I have my talk about stuff friends, but not necessarily do anything friends, I have my specific activity friends. I get passed around a lot, lol.

In a romantic relationship, there are some needs that the person is going to have to meet because friends can't necessarily meet them. Certain physical and emotional needs, intimacy needs. Your SO often sees parts of you your friends don't see because being in a relationship brings out those parts. I don't get upset if I have no contact with a friend for a month, but that would not be the case with a SO.

Aphrodite, Domino has mentioned this Pleasant Acquaintance Containment Room, where you put the people you genuinely like, enjoy their time and company, and are cool with but not necessarily in the inner circle. The inner circle is actually not the most pleasant place to be with a Fe dom I think. There's a lot of turbulence and padded walls in that place that I know I don't want other people to see and be exposed to. The people that are there are there because they're very highly trusted, valued, and have shown that they don't blink. There are many worries, anxieties, and insecurities in this particular room as opposed to the PACR where you have a 50-inch HD flat screen TV, fully stocked bar, theater, and gourmet chef around to whip up the best nachos you've ever had.

I guess most people do this to some extent. I wonder how many people have Fe dom friends that don't realize they in the circle and feel like their Fe dom is very panicky and needy. So to respond to the latter half of your question, I know for me there is a higher expectation for people in the circle that can come across as excessive. This is why I try as best as I know how to let these people know they are appreciated and what their friendship means to me...there's a special trust there that isn't with others and I'm extremely grateful to them for "putting up" with me in that way. I take other people's temperatures so much more often than I take my own and it's nice to have a place where you don't have to worry about that.

Yesterday I was out with two friends and one was circle and the other wasn't. The vein of conversation the circle friend and I were on wasn't necessarily Friday night drinking and forget about the week convo. The other friend told us we were ruining her buzz. I felt a twinge inside and thought to myself this is why I like her more than I like you and this is why you'll never get any further than where you are. Not that it matters to her, but it does matter to me.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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When I see people constantly texting their SOs, calling each other 4 and 5 times and day, I'm like whoa that's a bit much. In my most attentive relationship, we'd meet up for lunch twice a week because we were on the same side of campus and go out on Saturday night. When semesters changed, we still saw each other twice a week, go out Saturday and occasionally study together on Sunday. We didn't talk on the phone that much, although we would instant message if we were both on our computers. I personally felt satisfied with that and I didn't hear any complaints.


See now, I would have thought that's how an Fe dom would be in a relationship; at least a new one. But you're saying not really. I wonder how much that changes with age? I bet needing your mate closer to you depends to some degree on how old you are when you get together. Do you feel like you've always been this way, or is a learned thing over time? I know when I was younger, I wanted my bf there 24/7. But I'm not like that anymore.


Aphrodite, Domino has mentioned this Pleasant Acquaintance Containment Room, where you put the people you genuinely like, enjoy their time and company, and are cool with but not necessarily in the inner circle. The inner circle is actually not the most pleasant place to be with a Fe dom I think. There's a lot of turbulence and padded walls in that place that I know I don't want other people to see and be exposed to. The people that are there are there because they're very highly trusted, valued, and have shown that they don't blink. There are many worries, anxieties, and insecurities in this particular room as opposed to the PACR where you have a 50-inch HD flat screen TV, fully stocked bar, theater, and gourmet chef around to whip up the best nachos you've ever had.

I guess most people do this to some extent. I wonder how many people have Fe dom friends that don't realize they in the circle and feel like their Fe dom is very panicky and needy. So to respond to the latter half of your question, I know for me there is a higher expectation for people in the circle that can come across as excessive. This is why I try as best as I know how to let these people know they are appreciated and what their friendship means to me...there's a special trust there that isn't with others and I'm extremely grateful to them for "putting up" with me in that way. I take other people's temperatures so much more often than I take my own and it's nice to have a place where you don't have to worry about that.

Yesterday I was out with two friends and one was circle and the other wasn't. The vein of conversation the circle friend and I were on wasn't necessarily Friday night drinking and forget about the week convo. The other friend told us we were ruining her buzz. I felt a twinge inside and thought to myself this is why I like her more than I like you and this is why you'll never get any further than where you are. Not that it matters to her, but it does matter to me.

Makes good sense. So, it's just important that an Fe dom understands that she/he will probably have more complex relational needs than a s.o. can meet, and that that's okay and good. I definitely see this in my esfj friend. She was engaged 3 times before her successful marriage to her ISTP in her late 30's. She goes her own way most of the time, as does he, but they are very happy in that.

I do the bolded too. People have to pass the tests. :D
 

lunalove

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My husband is an INTJ and I'm ENFP. It's tough! However...his need for space helps me go inside and learn to love and trust myself.

I definitely agree that you should speak to him and let him know how you feel. My husband prefers if I am to the point as much as possible when I talk to him. I often write things down or write him a letter and pick out the mail points to share with him (or just give him the letter!) ;) If you ever want to talk about his need for space, etc. feel free to PM me. It's not easy, but with open communication and both of you willing to grow and meet one another half way, this sounds like it will be a healthy and long-term relationship!

Good luck...you're in my thoughts! ((hugs))

luna~

p.s. You are in no wayy pathetic...your feelings are beautiful and sensitive and simply...perfect :)
 
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