[ENFP] ENFPs: Beating 'Em Off with a Stick (Not the ENFP, But Those They Encounter)

[Lady_X]

Sorry I kinda skipped steps in that last q. I think our typically MO of sweetness doesnt hurt people-but it can confuse other people sometimes. Out of that confusion can come hurt or a feeling the other person was manipulated i think. But in reality we were just doing what we do??? I dunno.

it's about intent i think...if you're friendly and warm with someone because you care and are genuinely interested in them i don't see a thing wrong with that...but if it's for other reasons...then yeah people ought to look at that and make sure their behavior matches their true intent and genuine feeling.

 

[Amargith]

Seriously, she's just trying to figure out how to deal with this while venting a bit. Get over it people. It is something that can become a problem and annoying and it takes a bit of work to know 'how to turn it off', coz it does come natural and you regularly go 'wtf?'. It's spontaneous behavior that isn't calculated to get that attention.

Again, you can 'learn' from those experiences and then trigger them consciously afterwards, at which point you can do the 'sales' pitch thing marm was talking about.

But just because it can get you that many benefits, doesn't mean you actually want those benefits or are actively going out to get those benefits. I seem to recal, btw, Marm, that you were annoyed with the fact that men constantly hit on you, in vent. Same thing. It's not bragging about it, it's a problem. A very big fat *luxury* problem, but sometimes it just annoys the shit out of you. And thes ame goes for what ridiculously hot women go through. They have to constantly wonder what men want from them, it's tiresome to keep an eye on 'is he trying to get in my pants or does he actually like me', for that matter 'Has he even bothered to see who I am, aside from the pretty package he likes?' Same goes for billionaires..sure they have no money problems, but its not like that magically solves everything, in fact, it comes with its very own set of extra problems.

While some will complain about this to brag slyly on the side, that is not always the case. To condemn it as such without even trying to figure out which it is, imo, means that you need to look at yourself and see if you're not projecting feelings of envy or jealousy, coz you're not even willing to see how it could potentially be a problem. There is such a thing as 'too much of a good thing'.

 

[Southern Kross]

Guys, can we be a little less spiteful here?

I don't think ENFPs are more prone to arrogance or vanity with regards to their virtues, than any other type. And I do think we can acknowledge that people do tend to gravitate towards ENFPs whether or not they welcome it or not. It may not be a serious problem for them in the scheme of things (in fact at times its probably pretty handy) but surely it could be a bit awkward when you have to get clingy people to lay off a little. Do we seriously have to sit here a moralize over their right to complain? You sound like the uncool kids at school bitching about how the popular kids can't possibly have real problems. Its just childish and ignorant.

Now, back to sensible and meaningful discussion... (I'm talking to you Amargith )

 

[Heart&Brain]

Guys, can we be a little less spiteful here?

I don't think ENFPs are more prone to arrogance or vanity with regards to their virtues, than any other type. And I do think we can acknowledge that people do tend to gravitate towards ENFPs whether or not they welcome it or not. It may not be a serious problem for them in the scheme of things (in fact at times its probably pretty handy) but surely it could be a bit awkward when you have to get clingy people to lay off a little. Do we seriously have to sit here a moralize over their right to complain? You sound like the uncool kids at school bitching about how the popular kids can't possibly have real problems. Its just childish and ignorant.

Now, back to sensible and meaningful discussion... (I'm talking to you Amargith )

It's a learning curve. As a teen I'd start complaining that everybody else should change, because they annoyed me. Then slowly I found out that I had powers to influence the interaction too. Then when I could own it, I could recognise potential minefields and change my course.

There's nothing wrong with being extraverted and friendly and intense and open to the people you meet. Most of the time, it's a joy for everone involved. To get a more conscious mastery of your core functions, will make you able to know what you are doing. Like playing an instrument well. (While a small kid would just hammer on the piano and turn around to watch what effects it has on his surroundings, a virtuosi knows exactly how to modulate his expression to reach his audience with the artistic statement he seeks. The rest of us are happy amateurs somewhere in between these extremes... )

Responsibility and competence in using a cognitive funcion would imply being prepared to deal with the feed back and effects you'll get. You don't need to take all the responsibility of an interaction going bad. That would be patronising towards the other involved. Rather it would imply that you have a more nuanced distribution of responsibility on both ends than the immature black/white judgments.
Can you imagine a teenager who hasn't thought one of these two hyperboles?: Either "The others are to blame, because they never understand me!" or "I always make things go wrong. I should just shut my face for ever!"

It's a trial and error process, getting practice before mastery... a learning curve of emotional cause and effect. It's quite okay provided that you don't get stuck in defensiveness.

Hug to all Fi-apprentices...

 

[pyramid]

All types have flaws. I can't see why it's such a big deal for ENFPs to admit that it is something we can learn to control, instead of acting like it's something that just happens to us.

I agree with you, Marmalade, though sometimes just being your conspicuous ENFP self is enough to draw unwanted attention. I have a preference for the unique, whether that be individuation through body modification or adapting to me and wearing what is comfortable on my skin. Let's say I am honest to a fault and if that means something about my appearance is LOUD, then whatever. It doesn't seem that way to me, only when percieved by others. Even though I want not to be the center of attention, sometimes just being relaxed in my body is "too much" for the environment. I am putting whatever out there externally so I can relax and not feel a need to justify or explain my difference because you can pick up so much of "me" right away. On this end it feels like a courtesy to let you know I am an intense person and some of the things I love before you speak with me and discover my intensity. Most days I compromise with the world and subdue my freakness. I strive to dress appropriately for occasions and all but there is just no denying I feel at home in my favorite band t-shirt.

I usually look like I feel!

 

[pyramid]

Uh huh, and I'm sure being a billionaire sucks because your taxes are more complicated. Somehow I don't feel sorry for billionaires.




There may be negative things about being ridiculously attractive, but they're grossly outweighed by the positives, so nobody cares.

billionaires are people who choose to keep that much money. people's birth-given appearance is different.

sometimes you feel peolpe don't listen to you because they are staring at your boobs, and other times you feel like you will never get someone to fall in love with you for the right reason because the stupid shell is there.

I sympathize not with that article about exhibitionists/performers who know they are being stared at and their complaints about superficiality.

The only thing being attractive gets you is drunker at the bar.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Guys, can we be a little less spiteful here?

I don't think ENFPs are more prone to arrogance or vanity with regards to their virtues, than any other type. And I do think we can acknowledge that people do tend to gravitate towards ENFPs whether or not they welcome it or not. It may not be a serious problem for them in the scheme of things (in fact at times its probably pretty handy) but surely it could be a bit awkward when you have to get clingy people to lay off a little. Do we seriously have to sit here a moralize over their right to complain? You sound like the uncool kids at school bitching about how the popular kids can't possibly have real problems. Its just childish and ignorant.

Now, back to sensible and meaningful discussion... (I'm talking to you Amargith )

OK, I'm still catching up on all the posts I missed in the past couple of days, but let me say a couple of things:

#1 - Southern Kross, you are my hero! Well said.

#2 - Jeesh. I don't know... maybe I'm getting more T as I get older, but some of the posts on this thread reflect a too touchy, overly sensitive world view. I guess if I were an ENTP, I'd give it the ENTP Te shrug. But sadly, I'm still an ENFP with strong T tendencies. So from one NF to another... some of you guys need to relax a little and not get too analytical and overly moralistic about stuff.

[Yeah OK, I've done my fair share of this, too, in my life. All NFs do this to a certain extent. Let me tell you though, reading this thread has been a sobering mirror for this NF to look into. I think may go whack myself in the back of my head, now.]

 

[Lauren Ashley]

^Right. Blame it on NF "moralizing" when there were at least a couple of non-NFs that had similar responses.

 

[JoSunshine]

Uh huh, and I'm sure being a billionaire sucks because your taxes are more complicated. Somehow I don't feel sorry for billionaires.


There may be negative things about being ridiculously attractive, but they're grossly outweighed by the positives, so nobody cares.

I care..and I'm somebody, damn it :steam:

There are a lot of people who are into usery out there and we won't even get into the social climbers. If you are beautiful, you have to wonder if someone just wants to date you or hang out with you for your looks. If you are rich and successful, you have to wonder if someone just wants to hang out with you for status or to try to get your money.

I have a friend who is very sweet and pretty, but has a personality that doesn't have mass appeal. Guys are constantly after her purely becuase she is cute and have no intention of actually having a relationship with her. She is crushed time and again...it's not easy for her.

I'm not saying it's the worst "problem" in the world to have, but there are still real challenges that come along with the "good things" and I have compassion for that. It's clear you don't...but it doesn't mean nobody does.

 

[pyramid]

my little sister-in-law was diagnosed BPD. They put her on antipshychotics and just gave up on her. She ended up living with her sister and at 26 has only lived alone for about six month when she tried to go to college. She has a stable job, but I feel like she kinda just got chunked in the nut bucket and discarded.

that wrenches my heart, HP. I feel like an advocate here. I always talk about touchy psychiatry issues and interpretations of sanity openly because I have been subjected to and worked though society's closed definition of it. "Healthy" is an ever-evolving term...

I was just telling someone else being an Ne-dom sucks. Ne is like a giant bell. If you wack it with a hammer, it just rings and gets all sorts of crazy. For me a good emo wack can take about a week to get over-not visions or anything, but just amplifying pain and confusion. I could see something like what you describe-a series of deaths really being horrific.

Do you think Ne may lead to some of the paranoia and visions you saw? BTW I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this issue as I know it is personal.

I find that even if I have the function associations incorrect here, using the terms helps explain what I was going through and my irrational thought patterns.

so yeah, Ne can manifest by forcing you to take clues from the outside world more than from yourself, so you start making associations that arent true from your environment and acting on it (picking up stuff off the ground & finding it so significant or wandering into open doors of private property).

That could possibly be a response to having your Fi crushed so badly and not knowing how to explain it even to yourself that you attempt to abandon this function as a useful or integral one and just go with what's reliable and nearby, Ne and Te. I found I was vacillating between paralyzing profound truths and sickening personalized delusions, and saying them both out loud.

A cry for help: for some security/time/love to repair(remember) the Fi and/or help to escape from a broken down place where ENFP could only operate with Si (feeling like you can only trust the most alien of functions to orient yourself because everything else has seemingly failed).

I was so Fi and unlike my environment as a teenager that I tested and identified as INFP, when I am definitely an extrovert. I take this as a sign that I have some pretty developed and vulnerable Fi components!

maybe this made any sense?

 

[simulatedworld]

billionaires are people who choose to keep that much money. people's birth-given appearance is different.

sometimes you feel peolpe don't listen to you because they are staring at your boobs, and other times you feel like you will never get someone to fall in love with you for the right reason because the stupid shell is there.

I sympathize not with that article about exhibitionists/performers who know they are being stared at and their complaints about superficiality.

Uh huh, and if you're unattractive then sometimes you wonder if anyone will ever fall in love with you (or even want to date you) at all. Who's getting the short end of the stick here? Not you.

And if everyone is constantly staring at your boobs instead of listening to you, it's probably because you're not saying anything worth listening to. You think they'd be paying more attention if you were ugly? If you weren't physically attractive you'd probably be more insecure than you are now. The other side's grass always seems greener, but in this case it's not.

The only thing being attractive gets you is drunker at the bar.

Utter, 100% unadulterated bullshit. The article clearly explains a variety of advantages attractive people have over unattractive ones in nearly every area of life. There are tons of little opportunities being pretty will get you that you don't even realize you wouldn't have gotten if you weren't.

Just consider the opposite end of the spectrum for a minute. What's worse on your self-esteem: too many people constantly thinking you're attractive, or nobody ever thinking you are?

 

[Lady_X]

just so it's clear...i am so NOT an unpopular kid envious of the cool kids! haha

i am saying i find it very uncool for well liked people to complain about it...big difference.

 

[sculpting]

Rather it would imply that you have a more nuanced distribution of responsibility on both ends than the immature black/white judgments.
Can you imagine a teenager who hasn't thought one of these two hyperboles?: Either "The others are to blame, because they never understand me!" or "I always make things go wrong. I should just shut my face for ever!"

It's a trial and error process, getting practice before mastery... a learning curve of emotional cause and effect. It's quite okay provided that you don't get stuck in defensiveness.

Hug to all Fi-apprentices...

and hugs to you as well. How long does it take to overcome the boomerang-effect-black/white-it's all my fault/it's all your fault effect? I can rationalize my way endlessly about why what I feel is "incorrect"-but it doesnt change what I feel. It just prevents feeling. I dont understand how to add gradiation to feeling.

Even though I want not to be the center of attention, sometimes just being relaxed in my body is "too much" for the environment. I am putting whatever out there externally so I can relax and not feel a need to justify or explain my difference because you can pick up so much of "me" right away. On this end it feels like a courtesy to let you know I am an intense person and some of the things I love before you speak with me and discover my intensity.

This-I feel the need to be very honest about what I am as I do not want to mislead others into thinking I am more normal than I am. I would rather be terribly honest than hide my soul. It doesnt transfer into flirting for me, but i feel the same sense of oddness. Like I am packaged in a bundle that doesnt fit. If I could I would explode and become one with everything (Ne anyone?), leave behind these strange ties to the real world. I would dissolve into the stars. I would care and touch others without them ever understanding I had been there watching over them.

I guess if I were an ENTP, I'd give it the ENTP Te shrug. But sadly, I'm still an ENFP with strong T tendencies. So from one NF to another... some of you guys need to relax a little and not get too analytical and overly moralistic about stuff.

You mean the ENTP Fe shrug?

 

[Thalassa]

just so it's clear...i am so NOT an unpopular kid envious of the cool kids! haha

i am saying i find it very uncool for well liked people to complain about it...big difference.

Yeah, I'm definitely not envious of the OP...I'm not sure why that even came up actually. There are plenty of other reasons why people can be annoyed with someone besides "jealousy." I don't even know esoteric wench, how many friends she has, or what she looks like, so envy is definitely not a factor.

I just have my opinion, and think it would be cowardly of me to not be straight forward about it. Sometimes people need to hear things they don't like (including me).

I seem to recal, btw, Marm, that you were annoyed with the fact that men constantly hit on you, in vent.

Expressing annoyance with an immediate situation is not the same as making an entire thread about something. I never sat in vent and said "wow these guys hit on me because I'm ENFP and I'm special and I'm hot." I know for a fact that the same guys hit on a lot of other females on this forum, regardless of their type, and that it doesn't make me special. Furthermore, I acknowledge responsibility for one of my old avatars drawing attention to my physical appearance...so it's not like I'm saying I'm a victim, because I surely am not. I attention whore occasionally. I admit it.

 

[Thalassa]

^Right. Blame it on NF "moralizing" when there were at least a couple of non-NFs that had similar responses.

Yeah, there were NTs who shared similar opinions.

 

[gromit]

Yes, and refusing to take responsibility for it after becoming aware of it (as OP clearly has) is kind of like someone having a sweet tooth ... or even a problem with alcohol ...and continuing to binge on sweets or get drunk more often than they should while expecting to be exempted sheerly for being aware that it's something they do. No. You don't just take responsibility for it verbally, you learn to think about what you're doing to other people, and curb it in a bit.

Obviously I don't have the benefit of knowing her (or you) in person, but my understanding is that Esoteric Wench has started to realize it and is looking for perspective on why it happens, advice on how to approach things differently, that sort of thing. I think she is trying to understand and take responsibility, or else why would she have begun this thread in the first place?

In response to the original post, I don't know that I've necessarily had this particular problem that the EW brings up, because I seem to recall in my experience that I've been on both sides of the issue here - thinking particular interactions were more important than the other person did and vice versa. When I realize that the other person doesn't think our interactions have been as profound as I do, I do feel a little sad, although I find that sort of thing impacting me less as I've gotten older. Probably learning to be more secure in myself. When I realize that someone else is in that position, I do feel a little bit of awe or reverence or something that something so seemingly mundane could be so profound. But then again, more and more each day I am realizing that mundane and profound are not so far apart as we would think.

Errr... I sort of wandered. I guess maybe the next question, for marmalade.sunrise, or anyone else: what are ways to be more aware of ones impact on others, to curb it in, so to speak?


Has anyone ever seen the movie Off the Map (2003)? I think Joan Allen's character is a great example of this kind of thing. Warm, welcoming, open, compassionate, willing to share meaningful experiences, but really firm in her boundaries.

 

[Southern Kross]

I do not recall ever saying anything about envy/jealousy. Perhaps I wasn't perfectly clear. Allow me to explain:

What I really dislike (and please note I am speaking in general terms here, not about this specific topic) is when disadvantaged people start claiming that they have the monopoly on suffering: ie. "pretty/rich/famous/popular people CAN'T possibly have problems". Its so ignorant to think that. Yes, any idiot can see that they do have a great many advantages in life over the rest of us, however this doesn't mean that they are in anyway EXEMPT from problems of their own. Maybe their issues are a whole lot smaller than everyone else's but how exactly are you going to measure that - its subjective to their experience. Remember, everyone's problems, no matter how big or small, are real to them. Of course there are some people out there constantly bitching and complaining about their issues in a unreasonable manner, way out of proportion to their actual significance. These people need a serious reality check. But before you start pointing fingers, take a look at yourself because we all do this to some degree. I'm pretty sure my problems seem petty and self-indulgent to someone really suffering in Sudan, because comparatively, I'm living in paradise.

OK, back to the specific topic at hand. I don't think this thread was ever meant to be treated as a huge, momentous issue. It was probably intended as light discussion, not the overblown "woe is me" session some are proclaiming it to be. As for the unwanted attention issue, I do think that there may be a fair argument that ENFPs bring some of this on themselves. Whether or not this is conscious and intentional is up for debate. But I don't see why we need this hysterical and antagonistic response to the issue even being raised. Especially when the no one here has actually arrogantly bitched and indirectly bragged about their popularity in the manner people here have been complaining about. Nor (as far as my memory serves me) have the ENFPs who have admitted to being in a awkward situation with regards to unwanted attention, claimed that it is a huge and significant problem for them. This negative response is simply way out of proportion, and to me there seems to be a lot of projecting of personal issues onto the OP. The title (which seems to be the major source of contention) may have been a little inappropriate but did people stop and think that it was a case of exaggerated facetiousness for effect? I did, and I'm a 'over-sensitive' INFP :rolli:. Instead people jumped to conclusions, overreacted and started a type assassination (some ENFPs included) even after Esoteric Wench clarified her intentions.

I'm just astounded at all this. Can't we just play nice?

 

[Laurie]

^Agree

 

[BlackCat]

I'm just astounded at all this. Can't we just play nice?

Not when we're on the internet and people want to "win" discussions we can't.

People will think these things regardless, take on an inferiority complex to cope with what they want and don't have in the moment.

 

[Lady_X]

I do not recall ever saying anything about envy/jealousy. Perhaps I wasn't perfectly clear. Allow me to explain:

What I really dislike (and please note I am speaking in general terms here, not about this specific topic) is when disadvantaged people start claiming that they have the monopoly on suffering: ie. "pretty/rich/famous/popular people CAN'T possibly have problems". Its so ignorant to think that. Yes, any idiot can see that they do have a great many advantages in life over the rest of us, however this doesn't mean that they are in anyway EXEMPT from problems of their own. Maybe their issues are a whole lot smaller than everyone else's but how exactly are you going to measure that - its subjective to their experience. Remember, everyone's problems, no matter how big or small, are real to them. Of course there are some people out there constantly bitching and complaining about their issues in a unreasonable manner, way out of proportion to their actual significance. These people need a serious reality check. But before you start pointing fingers, take a look at yourself because we all do this to some degree. I'm pretty sure my problems seem petty and self-indulgent to someone really suffering in Sudan, because comparatively, I'm living in paradise.

OK, back to the specific topic at hand. I don't think this thread was ever meant to be treated as a huge, momentous issue. It was probably intended as light discussion, not the overblown "woe is me" session some are proclaiming it to be. As for the unwanted attention issue, I do think that there may be a fair argument that ENFPs bring some of this on themselves. Whether or not this is conscious and intentional is up for debate. But I don't see why we need this hysterical and antagonistic response to the issue even being raised. Especially when the no one here has actually arrogantly bitched and indirectly bragged about their popularity in the manner people here have been complaining about. Nor (as far as my memory serves me) have the ENFPs who have admitted to being in a awkward situation with regards to unwanted attention, claimed that it is a huge and significant problem for them. This negative response is simply way out of proportion, and to me there seems to be a lot of projecting of personal issues onto the OP. The title (which seems to be the major source of contention) may have been a little inappropriate but did people stop and think that it was a case of exaggerated facetiousness for effect? I did, and I'm a 'over-sensitive' INFP :rolli:. Instead people jumped to conclusions, overreacted and started a type assassination (some ENFPs included) even after Esoteric Wench clarified her intentions.

I'm just astounded at all this. Can't we just play nice?

i agree with you that nobody is exempt from problems...i have even had the experience of my phone ringing off the hook with people wanting to do stuff and feeling like i was constantly letting someone down because i didn't have enough time to do stuff with everyone...i have even experienced dealing with being hit on more than i'd like...i get a lot of the things being discussed here and i'm sorry if my responses seemed overly rude to anyone...but i took issue with the cold delivery of the op and was responding to that...it seemed mean to the people who liked her and i didn't like it.