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  1. #131
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Aug 2008
    4 sx/sp


    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Yes, I'm sure that's exactly how ENFPs are.
    Indeed. Failures at snarkiness too.

  2. #132
    Its time. Cassandra's Avatar
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    Nov 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Why do enfp threads always end up with other types all hot and bothered, arguing tooth and nail about something?
    Good question. My best guess is coz our style of exploring things freely is apparently misunderstood or somehow offensive towards others. Brainstorming and unfiltered musings can be somewhat rough around the edges, which apparently can cause others to believe that this is the end product, instead of an exploration. Since the unfinished product can be hard to digest and it is mistaken as an endproduct, people seem to push the alarmbutton on how this is 'so wrong'. Unfortunately, that also stiffles the creative thinking/feeling process that the enfp is looking for, which leads to the insights we enjoy and are searching for.

  3. #133
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Jan 2009
    937 so/sx


    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Brainstorming and unfiltered musings can be somewhat rough around the edges, which apparently can cause others to believe that this is the end product, instead of an exploration. Since the unfinished product can be hard to digest and it is mistaken as an endproduct, people seem to push the alarmbutton on how this is 'so wrong'. Unfortunately, that also stiffles the creative thinking/feeling process that the enfp is looking for, which leads to the insights we enjoy and are searching for.
    That's very well said, Amargith. I've witnessed this type of exploration, and the confusion and misunderstandings arising from it both here and IRL. There seems to be an NFP-style process that needs to be followed in order to create solid conclusions that can be expressed to one's satisfaction. I will know instantly when something bothers me but the articulation of that takes more time and effort.

    Here's a personal example, from just last night. A Facebook friend posted on her wall "first bbq meal of the season: (local, pasture-raised) t-bone steak with carmelized onions & portabello mushrooms. mmm..." I found this annoying. Then what is required is time to deconstruct what was offensive to me about something seemingly innocuous...

    I say to hubs: Oh I don't like A's status. Hubs asks why, what's wrong with it? I stumble a little for the words, and say something like "It's just so ... like boasting, or saying something because it's fashionable now to be environmentally aware ... (pause, search more for words) ... I mean, I grew up living an organic, farm life so of course I support it ... (pause) ... and really almost all beef is pasture-raised aside from vealers (pause) ... it's just like it's another form of proselytizing. Gah I can't find exactly the words I want."

    Hubs listens, familiar with having to wait to understand such utterances fully.

    3 minutes elapse.

    Then, it comes to me: it's like this verse from the Bible: "When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you" (Matthew 6:16-18).

    Now, I am not trying to make a religious point specifically; the symbolism of the quote is what appeals to me.

    When people make an outward show of their personal choices, but then live other parts of their life in opposition to these supposed values.....I feel anger and frustration towards that display. There's this lack of congruence, of honesty. I don't parade my choices because even if I buy organic produce and recycle and support green living I still throw out a garbage bag of waste every week, I buy stuff made in China, drive my car and don't always act in an environmentally responsible way.

    And you can say, at least we are working towards improving. That's true and has value. BUT ... I am not arguing that in this thread. I am using it as an illustration to make the point below:

    Sometimes it takes time to get there, to analyze then understand the feeling, and then to take it a step farther and to be able to articulate it ... that's the in-between time for me when things can come out as unvarnished as some of the OP's thoughts. Ya, I thought she sounded full of herself, but I can see what she is trying to get at. I generally let myself ruminate on such things inside before expressing them in the outside world, just to avoid such misunderstandings.

    I can only imagine as an extrovert having to deal with the mouth opening up and articulating spontaneously as opposed to dealing with contradictions in the internal world first.....
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt

    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #134
    likes this gromit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010


    Oh wow. I can totally relate to that gut feeling about something and then having to sort out actually what you feel/think about it.

  5. #135
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Apr 2007


    huh. and to think, i was just going to tell the OP that all females have experienced this problem.
    •.¸¸. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒჱܓ. இڿڰۣ.¸¸.இڿڰۣ´¯`·.─♥

    Cerebral Artery

  6. #136
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Jan 2009


    ^Haha. Awesome.

  7. #137
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Nov 2008
    7w6 sx/so


    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    To explain the example: Person 2 believes that people with cancer (read: like poor/insignificant people) would be grateful for good health in general (read: like Paris Hilton's wealth/fame), even if it meant having the flu (read: like her trivial issue with privacy), so the problem pales in comparison to the general advantage.
    Umm, great, but that's not what I said and doesn't have anything to do with my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    You are wrong to evaluate a person's disavantages in relation to their advantages. Problems are problems; and the should be seen as separate to a person's advantages in life whether they are related or not. There is a flip side to every privilege. Yes, the flip side may be something that is easier to live than going without the privilege at all (if that is an option - some are things you're born with). But surely you don't expect people to sit there are be eternally grateful for their gifts every second of the day. Nor does being grateful for your privileges magically diminish the problems that come with it. Knowing you have good health in general isn't much comfort when you have the flu. Its pretty hard to maintain gratitude through shitty situations even if you are lucky in general.
    That's...also not what I was talking about. I said I don't want to hear people complaining about things that do them a lot more good than bad. You're just repeating the same incorrect interpretation of my post.

    I'm talking only about problems that result from conditions which also confer great advantages that outweigh those problems. This does not include the flu or any sort of disease, or any problem that doesn't ALSO confer vastly greater advantage at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Also, please don't backtrack and deny that you compare and evaluate suffering in general. As you said earlier:
    You seem to think anyone that has comparative adavantages in life cannot experience real problems and that they should shut up so as to not offend the 'truly' suffering. And you do pull the "it could be worse" in your example of the teenager (among others). You might as well have said, "It could be worse. You could be stuck in foster care with sadistic foster parents that beat you daily".
    Uh, no, I don't seem to think that. Please reread my last post. You're still missing the point by a mile. The point isn't that your suffering doesn't matter if there's any way it could be worse; the point is that people don't want to hear you bitch about something that does you way more good than bad.

    Being rich, for instance, doesn't prevent you from suffering from the flu. If rich people complain about having the flu, that doesn't bother me, because the flu is unrelated to being rich and has no proportional upside. Disease is a real problem that rich people can and do suffer from and may legitimately complain about. Nobody is saying that privileged people can't have real problems; you're just badly misreading context.

    If rich people complain about being rich because they hate paying higher taxes, on the other hand, they're being unnecessarily whiny because being rich creates so much more advantage than disadvantage. The source of the tax problem, that wealth, is in itself the very thing that allows the person to maintain his highly pleasurable lifestyle, so having to pay higher taxes is a small price to pay for that kind of advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Anyway, if all you wanted to do is complain about how ENFPs aren't grateful enough for their gifts, you've made your point. Now move on with the discussion or leave.
    Somehow you still haven't gotten the real point here. It wasn't that problems that could potentially be worse are invalid just because they could be worse, or that privileged people can never have real problems.

    It was that complaining about the relatively minor problems caused by the very same thing that is also responsible for much larger positive things comes off as an annoying/spoiled form of complaining. (e.g., beautiful model complains that being pretty sucks because too many men hit on her...except, oops, that beauty is also directly responsible for her entire successful career and extravagant lifestyle. Not such a big disadvantage now, is it?)

    If that model wants wants to complain about having the flu, great. Go for it. Her beauty is not directly responsible for the flu symptoms, and the flu doesn't confer any comparative advantage. So feel free to complain.

    As for your flu example, it's still not relevant to my point and never was. "Having the flu sucks because it feels crappy" IS a legitimate complaint because there's no proportional upside to the having the flu. Get it? The problem is with complaining about things that also produce much greater advantages than the relatively minor problems they create, not just dismissing any suffering that could potentially be worse as invalid.

    Why are you complaining about straw men when they're the only response you seem to have to my posts? Please, please read more carefully next time.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #138
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008


    I don't quite understand the backlash in this thread. The OP's wording is off but I think I know what he might be talking about.

    It's about having deep-ish discussions with other people. ENFPs are probably more likely to initiate this kind of discussion on a regular basis with all kinds of people. A psychologist/journalist needs and welcomes lots of variety. But even with variety there's this earning for the big puzzles/stories.

    Your average joe won't be as likely to want to understand you in your first meeting as a psychologist/journalist will. The impulse is to start reading between the lines. Once that is done to some degree, with success, maintaining the same level of interest on a certain level (there are lots of dimensions to any one individual of course) can be tricky.

    It's a matter of Ne vs Fi. Ne goes all over the place. Fi is shared with others very vaguely or indirectly. So when another person makes the ENFP question him/herself...that's a rare occasion and one that is cherished.

    People appreciate a certain kind of attention, and ENFPs give it much more readily. But we yearn for people we feel comfortable getting that "deeper" kind of attention from.

    This might not make a whole lot of sense, and might make me sound as pretentious as the OP has been accused of being, but I'm well aware of the impact I have on others. I think the OP might be overestimating it. No one becomes best friends that readily. People just tend to like us instantly due to our charisma. It might take a little while more for us to really like someone, though. Liking past our natural inclination to like people. We are often well liked by we tend to want to go deeper to get real affirmation. And are often frustrated we don't get that. Hence the whole "misunderstood old souls bla bla bla" thing.

  9. #139
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    9w1 sx/so


    Well sure if it had been worded like that..if that's how she means it than sorry for being so damn prickly about it.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  10. #140


    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I don't think anybody claims that pretty/rich/famous/popular people don't have problems, just that their problems are trivially insignificant compared to those of truly disadvantaged people, so most people don't give a shit.

    I have a very hard time sympathizing with "booo hoooo too many people of the opposite sex think I'm attractive!" That's like complaining that there's too much filet mignon in your fridge while little African children are starving to death every day. I don't want to hear that shit.

    And you can't claim that Paris Hilton's daily problems somehow come out equal to those of a poor black mother of six working 80 hours a week at some bullshit minimum wage job in the ghetto just because "it's all subjective experience." Sure, Paris may have to worry about the media making fun of her, but that's a trivially small price to pay for the level of comfort and grandeur she gets to enjoy on a daily basis--and it sure as hell isn't even remotely comparable to the problems faced every day by real disadvantaged people dealing with real hardship. I just don't have any sympathy.

    Boo fucking hoo. If you're grossly disfigured or otherwise extremely unattractive, you have to wonder what it's like for anyone to ever want to date (or potentially love) you at all, because you'll very rarely even have the opportunity. If you're dirt poor and totally unsuccessful, not a lot of people want to hang out with you in the first place.

    I'm sure having to worry about people using you for your money is irritating and all; it's just a really trivial problem compared to people who are too ugly/unintelligent/socially incompetent/diseased/disfigured/disabled to have anyone wanting to date them in the first place. Put this in perspective. Rich/beautiful/successful people do have problems; they're just trivial bullshit most of the time when you consider the opposite end of the spectrum.

    I have a friend whose face was horribly disfigured in a car accident. No one has had any interest in dating her in over 20 years. Who do you think is getting the short end of the stick here?

    Do you think your friend would trade her beauty for gross disfigurement just to avoid her dating problem? I doubt it, because being beautiful confers a hell of a lot more advantage than disadvantage, and she knows that as well as anyone.

    It's just that there are so many enormous advantages that come with wealth/beauty/power/status that the disadvantages, while still negative, are trivial by comparison. I'm not saying those problems don't exist, just that they're trivial in comparison to people with real problems, and are typically a small price to pay for the huge amount of proportional advantage.

    If being rich sucked that badly, rich people would give away all their money. If being pretty sucked that badly, pretty girls wouldn't wear makeup and clothes designed to accentuate their beauty.

    If they really want to, even beautiful people can deliberately make themselves look unattractive. They just don't want to because they like all the advantage associated with being beautiful, but they also like to whine about the occasional proportionally trivial inconvenience caused by it. If you really hate being pretty that much, shave your head, go out in cheap soiled clothing and stop wearing makeup. Guys will stop hitting on you--I promise.
    Truth be told, I agree with everything you said in this post. I am sure attractive/rich/famous people have many problems but there are always going to be people w/ worse problems since the aforementioned people have problems rising out of too much of a good thing but many others have problems rising out of truly negative things.

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