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[ENFP] ENFP: The ENFP bitchslap

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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Well yeah, but I'm the stalker, so... dunno... INTJ Scorched Earth for ENFP Bitchslap. Seems fair.
 

Lady_X

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Well yeah, but I'm the stalker, so... dunno... INTJ Scorched Earth for ENFP Bitchslap. Seems fair.
oh shit...so staying out of this one...sorry. :hug:
 

Thalassa

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Well yeah, but I'm the stalker, so... dunno... INTJ Scorched Earth for ENFP Bitchslap. Seems fair.

Ummm....I don't think I want to post in this thread anymore. :unsure:
 

onemoretime

Dreaming the life
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Jun 29, 2009
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Well, here's as good an opportunity to bust out my new grand theory of it all:

There's no such thing as a distinction between Fe and Fi. It's entirely colored by the T function's orientation.

Yes, you heard me. Fe and Fi manifest themselves exactly the same way. Both are entirely tied to the relationship a person has with other people.

However, Fe comes along because of Ti's analytical tendency. It's understood very quickly (well, in everyone but the xxTPs, broken human beings that we are) that good emotions arise from relationships with others. So, Ti, being task-oriented, begins to devise strategies for triggering those emotional states. This is the "hidden" aspect of Fe - yes, it's entirely individualized like Fi is. However, from Ti's constant strategic influence, Fe users go with what consistently works. So it may seem like Fe users are entirely concerned with things like reciprocity and social graces, but that's just because these things are successful at making people feel good about themselves, and consequently, keeping a group together.

Fi is a result of Te, which as we know, is amazingly adept at categorizing and arranging. As such, a Te-user will take the emotional stimuli (that is, their relationships with other people) and handle it as its own category of thing. They become better at identifying and understanding their emotions, because placing a name on them comes naturally. As Te is less task-oriented and more structure-oriented, there comes a tendency to want to either understand and name other emotions (when tagged with N), or experience and recollect those emotions (when tagged with S).

HP's entirely right about it being a Te-bitchslap, because Te is the actor. And she's definitely an ENFP. (Warning, deep shit alert) Notice how much she talks about pain. With Ti, pain is merely something that's experienced, fought against, and forgotten once past. In her posts, I can imagine that each one of those mentions of "pain" actually correspond with different emotions, but English is limited in the proper words to describe them.

So why does she seem like an ENTP at times? Because she's seen shit in her day that you can thank your lucky stars you never went through. Just like I had my reasons to suppress my F(of an e-ish variety) for a very long time, she's probably had her reasons to suppress hers. And with that possibly being the case, I can't help but think it's more than a little offensive to question her self-identified type. So I'm not typing others on the board from here on out, and I hope the rest of you don't either.

Oh, and Amar? When you made the ENTP cry? That's not a good idea. If we get to the point we're publicly in tears in a rage-filled environment, it's not about your emotions or your expression of them. They're certainly not the reason he's in tears. In fact, you probably don't want to know why he's in tears. It's horrendous, to say the least.
 

BlueFlame

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i

Well yeah, but I'm the stalker, so... dunno... INTJ Scorched Earth for ENFP Bitchslap. Seems fair.

Hah! You two-timing forum messenger, you.

It's totally Te related, people. None of us are exempt from coloring our reactions with our potentially immature tertiary functions. Fi decides there's a serious problem, Ne has already failed and probably coming up with all kinds of weird possibilities, so we must resort to a *logical* explanation for what's going on there and resolve! Unfortunately, the resolution is only as good as the judgment that started it and the quality of the Te. ENFs are no strangers to logic in service of feeling.
I'm not entirely sure I can get on board with the whole *protecting the Fi,* thing. I consider it just a natural result of Ne and Fi going haywire. When I flip, I don't use Se to protect Ni. I use it as backup to protect my whole self.

No one's fritzing functions are particularly attractive.
 

InvisibleJim

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Nov 19, 2009
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2,387
I think most type dynamics are probably best explained with just dom, aux. In this case, I think its an aux Fi issue

The tertiary function is labelled the relief funtion. Thats where you go when you are stressed before you flip into shadow mode.
 

BlueFlame

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The tertiary function is labelled the relief funtion. Thats where you go when you are stressed before you flip into shadow mode.

I thought that was your inferior?
Ti brings me more relief than anything else...

Edit: Nevermind! I'm with you now :)
 

Venom

Babylon Candle
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The tertiary function is labelled the relief funtion. Thats where you go when you are stressed before you flip into shadow mode.

pff. I love how people think I haven't been exposed to these theories in my 1000+ posts here :rofl1: ...Im basing my "less tertiary access" belief on some of edcoachings posts. He's not exactly unfamiliar with type theory. Today's MBTI theorists cant really agree on the tertiary.
 

CzeCze

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Hey Happy Puppy! Love the thread name. :laugh:

I've been trying to get through all the responses but since we're already near page 20 I'll just add my 2 cents:

ENFP with crazy strong swirling torrents of Fi here! And I think my Ti is equal to (or even stronger than) my Te. I think I have decent amounts of Fe but in terms of what you mentioned Fe for (realizing what is socially appropriate, smoothing things over with others) I think it's a moot point. I think Fi turns me into a "good hostess" and I'm very aware of social mores and making good impression. I have a good public face.

So having said all that ^^ I don't really get super angry and bitchslap with Te. I can be verbally combative but I think that's just Te playing and exploring ideas.

I understand what emo-tinged Te is. I think I've had 1 or 2 ENFP females do this to me before -- *and it drives me crazy!!* LOL. I much prefer the robotic EGALITARIAN crispness with which an INTJ corrects me. :laugh: I hate perceving that people are "digging" at me or playing some kind of game I haven't been given a rulebook to.

Plus, when I'm truly angry I just go nuts, break shit, the usual. LOL, no kidding. Maybe my Fe is flowering though because I don't see what's so wrong irl with cussing people out and yelling at them. Why the need to keep up appearances and pretend we never get our hands dirty? You don't necessarily have to demean yourself or others by getting angry and showing it.

When I get angry I get strategic and look for greatest pay-off/redemption. The angrier I get, the cooler and calmer I feel. I've heard one other ENFP female tell me similar - she gets filled with cool dispassion.

As easy as it is to get a rise out of Fi doms (as some trolls here already know all too well :rolleyes:) Te works GREAT in times of stress to very clearly articulate to the world relieve me of my anger. When I'm angry, I just want to clear the air and make sure others explicitly know where I am coming from. And I want to really understand where the other person is coming from. That's my idea of closure and I need it to get over my anger/anxiety over interpersonal issues.

That's why I always thought it was Ti and not Te that was kicking in. My overall "bitchslap" approach is to get razor sharp and precise like a scalpel. And it's not really a 'bitchslap' so much as a reaction. I've had a few people over the many long years I've known people (mostly other NFs, an ISTJ, an INTP or two) tell me that my reactions of displeasure scared them.

But really in the bigger picture, it's because most ENFPs are so non-threatening and cute and cuddly so the contrast makes it seem more jarring. I had an ENFP female boss who Te bitchslapped all live long day (she credited it with her career success) and I hated it. It got on my nerves in a big way. Because otherwise she seemed like this goofy airhead. I also see this another ENFP friend of mine. Being goofy, even starting "play fights" and then getting all indignant and Te bitchy when they don't like how the course of events they started turns out. It seems inconsistent and somehow like an outcropping of a lack of self-awareness.

That's why in general I try to temper my unhappy/angry responses to the audience and keeping ^^ this all in mind. That's also partly why I say that lack or presence of Fe is a moot point. I intellectually (and with Ne) try to predict how people will react to me and what is appropriate.

And on a sidenote, how I get crazy intense and focused when I'm truly pissed gives me a good track record facing off with mean old corporations. IOW, I'm pretty good at getting my money back, vouchers, coupons, apologies, etc. when some bureacracy has wronged me.

So in summation, when people poke at me I either get business like and outspoken and Te driven in my speech, I get super laser pinpoint intense and accurate like an INTJ, or I go nuts and just Fe (? LOLOLOL) all over the place.

Add that to your research, HP! :D
 

Heart&Brain

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(...snip...)
When I get angry I get strategic and look for greatest pay-off/redemption. The angrier I get, the cooler and calmer I feel. I've heard one other ENFP female tell me similar - she gets filled with cool dispassion.

(...snip...)
And on a sidenote, how I get crazy intense and focused when I'm truly pissed gives me a good track record facing off with mean old corporations. IOW, I'm pretty good at getting my money back, vouchers, coupons, apologies, etc. when some bureacracy has wronged me.

So in summation, when people poke at me I either get business like and outspoken and Te driven in my speech, I get super laser pinpoint intense and accurate like an INTJ, or I go nuts and just Fe (? LOLOLOL) all over the place.

Thanks Cze Cze - QFT.

Super sensitive ENFP here. When my Fi gets hurt it's intense and wordless and burning hot and multilayered. AND I have to sort it out by myself, alone, with someone very very close to me or in a diary. It's an INTROVERTED feeling. It doesn't spontaneously vomit its pain all over the place for +1000 unknown strangers to comment upon. It doesn't seek validation from strangers, it doesn't do social engeneering, it doesn't make bulletpoint theories. Te might do that after some sorting through the event, when I need to implement my Fi-judgment in the real world.

When I've gone Te after a hurtful, personal event I can be so decisive and cold, I almost scare myself. It's not a state I wish to be in often, but it has been very good the few times I've had to do it.

In the situation I might protectively need to gain time to isolate myself and mull the overwhelming Fi-signals over. Default extraverted Intuition may be improvising fluffy diversions to hide the emotional turmoil within me that I don't want anybody to see while it's going on. Especially not if that anybody has just hurt me. I certainly don't want to exhibit my vulnerability to someone who might hurt me.

Point is: IF I display a lot of emotions publicly and instantly, they are not *really* vulnerable. They are more of a mockery of Fe, (eeh, I'm SO angry... poor me...), an act of clumsy social manipulation to rally support. Point is: anything, Ne-diversion, Fe-pretention, Te-logic etc. as long as it's not true Fi vulnerability being shown in what will appear to be an untrustworthy environment. No thanks, sir!

Te - in a powerful albeit rather unsophisticated black and white shape - will be used in a more important way after my intense Fi meltdown and private evaluation of the situation and my response.

When Fi is clear on the exact harm done and on how to avoid it in the future, it's time to execute through Te. It goes like this:

I go very calm, very focused and very, very cold. I'm only decisive. There's no social drama or emo-display or fishing for sympathy and backinggroups. I'm in stern, silent 'lonely cowboy' mode. There's no room for discussion or negotiation, there's no access for anybody to my feelings. There's only the necessary amount of interaction and involvement with my opponent(-s), not many words, only what is needed for my decided solution to be communicated and effectuated.

My Te-mode is icy. You won't see any other feelings than impatience to implement the draconic solutions matching the draconic pain. Plus a slight contempt for anyone delaying it. I've done this to a roommate:

Me: "Listen, this is the deal: Either you move out of the house or I do. Get it?"
Opponent: "Hey, what - there's no reason to..."
Me: "Yes, there is. It's not up for discussion. See, I don't want to live with you, so which one is it? I think you should move, but if you don't, I will. So?
Opponent: "Jeez, WTF, okay, I'll move out..."

So: No waste of time, no emotional long drawn discussions, no drama. Te.

In this (short-term) mode, I don't care for people's feelings, good or bad, towards me. Because there's no going back, there's no ambivalence, no apologies, there's no 'blowing off stream' only to take it back afterwards.
It's onemindedly decisive and sternly meant. I've set course and I would be forever ashamed of myself if I changed it once expressed.

When I'm still involved with people and trust them enough to show them a hurt, bleeding, hot and angry Fi, I might eventually calm down and say sorry, that was over the top. My Te-mode? Would never ever do that.

Yeah, it's tertiary, kind of unsophisticated black and white I guess, but very forceful in it's icy efficiency when it get the green lights from Ne-Fi.
 

Charmed Justice

Nickle Iron Silicone
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but the only point is communication...it's not about expected response...it's a just so you know sort of deal.
So is a bitchslap for you a release of repressed anger and aggression? Bitchslapping for me was always about a display of dominance or something; a defensive power play; an instantaneous way of setting a clear boundary; a type of cruel and unusual punishment. Hmmm....yea, bitchslapping was definitely a defense move for me. The first two times I did it were when two separate girls, "friends" of mine, attempted to fist fight me in the 9th grade. The only thing I was trying to communicate was that I dared them to touch me.

The only bitchslap I've ever received came from an ENTP male friend.
 

sculpting

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Jan 28, 2009
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Happy sees it as a perception shift which I see as a judgement shift. From Fi to Te.

I understand why she sees it as a perception shift. She is going from one set of details, what she did, to another set of details, what the INTJ did. Its a shift in her perception. But she is also changing her judgement from her to him. This shift in perception just moved it from Fi her initial internal judgement to her Te external judgement. Is this perception shift handled with her inferior Si or her dominant Ne?


Hey Poki-
There is something to what you are saying here but it is tainted by Ne and Si as well. Not sure how-need to think on it more.
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
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My Te-mode is icy. You won't see any other feelings than impatience to implement the draconic solutions matching the draconic pain. Plus a slight contempt for anyone delaying it. I've done this to a roommate:

Me: "Listen, this is the deal: Either you move out of the house or I do. Get it?"
Opponent: "Hey, what - there's no reason to..."
Me: "Yes, there is. It's not up for discussion. See, I don't want to live with you, so which one is it? I think you should move, but if you don't, I will. So?
Opponent: "Jeez, WTF, okay, I'll move out..."

So: No waste of time, no emotional long drawn discussions, no drama. Te.

In this (short-term) mode, I don't care for people's feelings, good or bad, towards me. Because there's no going back, there's no ambivalence, no apologies, there's no 'blowing off stream' only to take it back afterwards.
It's onemindedly decisive and sternly meant. I've set course and I would be forever ashamed of myself if I changed it once expressed.

Yes. :yes:

THIS is Te-mode. Definitely.

In normal Te-mode, something hurtful might be said, but it's mostly by accident: one is just trying to accomplish some task, and the approach is entirely dispassionate. The Te-user's attitude toward hurt feelings will be to calmly explain that the task needed to be accomplished, and while we regret that feelings got hurt, and apologize if there were some way to accomplish the task without hurting feelings. The main thing is that there is no malice. And it isn't even selfishness. It's just a worldview in which one doesn't automatically include feelings when devising plans to accomplish tasks.

In the hurt-feeling Te-mode, ironically, feelings matter even less, not more. No, not even one's own feelings: we're currently ignoring how hurt we are so we can get this over with. Our feelings prompted this mode, but that's all. They are not in the driver's seat. (Otherwise, it'd be an Fi or Fi/Te mode. Duh.)

So the hurt feelings (and we're talking seriously continually hurt feelings, not just a minor ego bruising or temporary resentment, but life-altering deep hurt, continually-violated boundaries) put us into a problem-solving mode to figure out how to fix the situation. In the example above, the fix is "leave." Te figures out all the practical "leave" options (you move out, I move out), and presents them to the other party. For those interested, this is simply establishing boundaries, albeit an extreme example. Usually, boundaries would be established by statements like, "Please don't borrow my toothbrush. Get your own," without any real rancor, just mild annoyance.

What's interesting about this mode is that, for ENFPs, this is when they become most like INTJs. One realizes that one's usual approach is not working, so the go to the next judging function down in order to process things. The Fi doesn't come into play precisely because it isn't going to get anything done, and keeping one's own feelings exposed to the situation hurts too much. So feelings are removed from the decision-making process, and one figures out how to rearrange the physical, objective, outside-world (as opposed to personal inner world) situation in order to correct the problem.

Happy Puppy's original post, as I've already pointed out, has a lot more Fi in it, that it isn't pure Te. I still think it's the same thing going on, establishment of boundaries, with an explanation of why the boundaries are being established. However, in this case, part of the explanation is that boundaries had already been set, but ignored. The reason for the more violently verbal direction is that the calm, cold reasoning approach didn't work, either! So, it's still Te, but it's Te pushing harder and louder, letting the Fi emo leak out to graphically illustrate that one really means what one says.

Happy Puppy's version is probably one of a few possible escalations of Heart&Brain's situation, mostly depending on whether the H&B version can find a workable Te escalation. In real-life land, moving out is an eminently practical solution. In internet-land, there is no practical way to "move" oneself such that one no longer receives email, etc: it becomes more practical to give the other person strong reasons to stop.
 

Amargith

Hotel California
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Ok, that's my IceQueen mode as I call it. The only way to get there is past the Mountain of Doom spitting fire at you (Fi) and ignoring that!

I hate doing this. It feels so definitive, it's burning bridges permanently, at least on this specific topic. There is no room for negotiation anymore, there's just forcing things to happen. And it typically leaves me feeling emotionally numb, almost dead, except for disappointment in the situation, myself and the other person. It's when all hope is lost. All communication has seized.

I will yell at you, overload you with pain before I do this, at least if it was worth fighting for. If it wasn't someone important to me, and not an important issue, I might skip to this because it is more efficient. But I avoid to go here at *all* costs on important thigns and with people I care deeply for.

Alternatively, I might adopt it to get out of the situation or give people time to run before I blow up on them. Especially if they're people I don't know that well, the topic isn't worth the effort and/or I don't want seeing my vulnerabilities (Fi). I'll employ it in big groups to keep my cool. My answer to HP in our little...disagreement, was an example of that.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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Bullshit, Pup. That these games win people real life success and money doesn't make them any less... well, successful, I guess.
 

Windigo

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Dec 27, 2009
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446
Not "Acceptable" or Not "nice".
Acceptable would be Fe
Nice/kind would be Fi

I have a toddler who is some sort of little Te tyrant-likely an INTJ. He is selectively aggressive-not to kids at the playground or strangers, but has no hesitation in hitting his 14 yo brother and the dogs and even will hit me when very angry.

Tim outs are pointless, hand smacks sort of work.

The best solution? I take his hands and look him in the eyes as say "You hurt the dogs. You have to take care of them as they are your friends. Dont hurt your friends. Hitting them with spoons hurts them." Gently but firmly.

We repeat for the various objects of dog abuse.

Yesterday he looked at me as I called the dog stupid. He said "you have to be nice to the dogs. They are our friends. I dont hit the dogs cause they are my friends." Lesson learned.

Our lesson-Fi showcases pain to force the Te user to feel it. The Te user then learns a new rule about how they shouldnt hurt people.

It is important to talk to a child in a language they understand. I use acceptable for most children, because some can get very upset if they think you are telling them that they are not "nice" people. I have an ENFP daughter that used to go into an absolute tizzy whenever she was corrected, "repeatedly screaming "I'm bad! I'm a bad, bad girl!" (when she was 3-4). I had no idea what to make of this at first, I was just the opposite. When at three my mother told me I was a very bad girl, I retorted, "I am NOT bad! I just did a bad thing!"

I try to walk very carefully when talking to children.

Blueflame, I would only get down on one knee after I asked the mother what she was going to do about her child's hitting problem. This has happened several times at a playground where children are running around hitting other children or adults and moms just sit there chatting happily or looking very tired. When I asked them, they just ignored me. I find this method is very effective with those types of moms. I will NOT let someone else's child be a tyrant at a playground because they are too tired/ignorant to do something about it themselves.

I am sure that you would not be that kind of mother in the first place. You seem very concerned with doing the right thing. :)
 

Lady_X

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So is a bitchslap for you a release of repressed anger and aggression? Bitchslapping for me was always about a display of dominance or something; a defensive power play; an instantaneous way of setting a clear boundary; a type of cruel and unusual punishment. Hmmm....yea, bitchslapping was definitely a defense move for me. The first two times I did it were when two separate girls, "friends" of mine, attempted to fist fight me in the 9th grade. The only thing I was trying to communicate was that I dared them to touch me.

The only bitchslap I've ever received came from an ENTP male friend.

yeah...i don't know i think i recall usually just stating things in a very detached matter of fact way...laying out the facts...only when really pressed would any emotional bits come out...and it comes out a bit stingy...like in a standing up for myself way by saying...listen...this is what i did and why...this is what you did...and this is now what i expect...or this is now what needs to happen kind of way...

if that makes sense.
 

Thalassa

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When I've gone Te after a hurtful, personal event I can be so decisive and cold, I almost scare myself. It's not a state I wish to be in often, but it has been very good the few times I've had to do it.

I know what you mean ... I can Fi spew all over the place at first, crying, maybe yelling, but if someone REALLY hurts me, really does something horrible to me I become cold... and almost evil in rare cases where its a personal situation and someone has really violated me. It's like I'm more calculating and distant, and I can verbally abuse people at that point with nasty, creative insults.
 

Heart&Brain

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I know what you mean ... I can Fi spew all over the place at first, crying, maybe yelling, but if someone REALLY hurts me, really does something horrible to me I become cold... and almost evil in rare cases where its a personal situation and someone has really violated me. It's like I'm more calculating and distant, and I can verbally abuse people at that point with nasty, creative insults.
Yeah... I might give the verbal knife caught on the spot. I've shouted at a guy grasping at my breasts: "Hey, you're old and fat and stupid, I can see why no woman would ever let you touch her out of free will, how pathetic it is to see, nobody will ever want you, you know that, so look, the harbour is right here, go jump in! Jump, you're an ugly old fart, come on now, people so sad and unwanted have no reason to live, you know that, and no one will miss you, it's over, you'll never get sex ever again, now go jump in already you sad little man or don't you even dare do that, impotent sissy!"
Then he started hitting me until my BF came rushing and diverted the violence. :devil:)
I'm happy he didn't jump, we were standing at the edge of the harbour, next to his boat. But I never regretted a word. Boundaries, yeah, albeit a bit black&white in execution... :blush: I was 18 at the time.


If I still have a small emotional opening, thus still *hope* that we can reach eachother I might care to show that I feel angry, offended or something. But if I've given up hope that the other party will understand or be able to respond constructively to such a show of feelings, I will not even bother to insult them with destroying observations. They have turned into an obstacle and I don't express feelings to obstacles. I remove them. So at some point I decide that communication doesn't further the goal I want to reach, and then even sharp, hurting comments is deemed a waste of energy and not worth the effort.

To me, Te in the service of hurt Fi can be a killer mode. Ice-queen is a good description, Amar. I'm going in to kills something, a connection and thereby a net of potentiality. That's sacrilege for an ENFP, so something dies inside yourself too. Yes, Fi approves that it's necessary in order to keep something more important alive, but still. You die a little, it leaves you somewhat empty and exhausted. I'd mostly rather avoid it.

But I think the killermode - accepting to kill a network of potential in order to finish some imperfect actuality - could be put to good use at completing tasks at work. If only I could get it activiated without the emotional hurt and anger triggering it ... :doh:
 
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