[ENFP] xNFP and selfishness?

[Biaxident]

Playing with you is a true joy, at least, as long as you enjoy it too

Hot pink with at least one other color is fine. Pastel is just horrible....

 

[onemoretime]

FAIL.....Your attempted Ni is kinda sad. Whats the context. Real men shouldnt wear pink, its a social rule and he was wearing pink. Yes im being arrogant and obnoxious, yes I am willing to admit to it, but you know what? Either way the truth hurts:yim_rolling_on_the_

And... way to completely miss the point of an analogy, as Se/Ni are so wont to do. The point was that both have tangible penalties attached to them based on external authorities. Murder's not illegal because it's wrong per se, though that once was the conceptualization of it ("natural law"), it's illegal because there is an agreement, made by others, that it's an action that is punishable, and like it or not, if you want to live within that group, you're going to have to abide by that agreement. Just like Fe.

Better to leave one's mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

Im just looking for my in. ENTPs are as fun for ISTPs to play with as ENFPs are for ENTPs to play with. NFPs can play with me like no tomorrow though

edit: its like the circle of life

You're doing it wrong.

 

[Thalassa]

This is the internet, and they probably just think it's funny to troll you and don't take this seriously at all. ENTPs don't really do that in the real world... if they cared about you I really can't see why that would happen. The only time that I've really been cornered by anyone in real life is in an impersonal debate... and nothing really personal. That's not really much of an offense, just the way a debate goes.

It's kind of sad that people take these ENTP-NFP relations that happen on the internet seriously, because it just doesn't seem to be like this at all in reality.

Well, wouldn't it be nice if they gave us better examples of themselves so we could learn to recognize them better in real life?

 

[Jaguar]

I've even had INFJs confirm that ENTPs will do this - back people into corners. It's very nasty, and it's almost like bullying. The reason why I don't have this response to NTJs is because they don't seem to relish cornering people who are crying. Maybe there's something about Ni in general that backs off, and something about Ne in general that keeps going, which maybe why ENTPs and NFPs bug each other ... it's not just the Ti/Fi thing to blame.

If someone takes delight in making someone cry, they have severe psychological problems.

 

[onemoretime]

If someone takes delight in making someone cry, they have severe psychological problems.

Those who would use crying as a tactic or a weapon also have severe psychological problems.

Bad actors generate distrust, no matter what they do.

 

[Jaguar]

Bad actors generate distrust, no matter what they do.

You won't be winning an Academy Award any time soon.

 

[onemoretime]

You won't be winning an Academy Award any time soon.

The greats are never appreciated in their own time.

 

[PeaceBaby]

We back at this again?


Edit: Be warned, I am now officially watching.

 

[Poki]

And... way to completely miss the point of an analogy, as Se/Ni are so wont to do. The point was that both have tangible penalties attached to them based on external authorities. Murder's not illegal because it's wrong per se, though that once was the conceptualization of it ("natural law"), it's illegal because there is an agreement, made by others, that it's an action that is punishable, and like it or not, if you want to live within that group, you're going to have to abide by that agreement. Just like Fe.

Better to leave one's mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.



You're doing it wrong.

Can you rephrase the bolded, you lost me. I think its want instead of wont, but its still hard to read.

Murder is illegal because it hurts people. Its a value based on Fi. The reason we have law is so that Fi will not weigh the offense itself and choose an appropriate action and impose its judgement on others. "an eye for an eye" could possibly work except not everyone values their eyes the same. So we are left with a large system that attempts to manage this. Is this what Fe is?

So Fe comes in underneath the law at a social level except that its not controlled except by a person, it lacks the systems that are put in place, it lacks the agreements, the vote as an individual is over run by a group. A group that doesnt exist except in someones head as an abstract concept.

I accept the penalty of opening my mouth without understanding. I was just looking for an in and couldnt come up with much

 

[onemoretime]

Can you rephrase the bolded, you lost me. I think its want instead of wont, but its still hard to read.

"Wont" means "having a tendency to do"

Murder is illegal because it hurts people.

No it's not. Why is it legal to murder if you are wearing a uniform and are under command of the state then?

Its a value based on Fi.

It's an agreement made by established authorities.

The reason we have law is so that Fi will not weigh the offense itself and choose an appropriate action and impose its judgement on others.

We have law so we maintain consistency in the interaction between unfamiliar parties, to promote the stability of a society as a whole. It exists to reduce uncertainty.

"an eye for an eye" could possibly work except not everyone values their eyes the same. So we are left with a large system that attempts to manage this. Is this what Fe is?

Reduction of uncertainty.

So Fe comes in underneath the law at a social level except that its not controlled except by a person, it lacks the systems that are put in place, it lacks the agreements, the vote as an individual is over run by a group. A group that doesnt exist except in someones head as an abstract concept.

They exist. They're just as abstract and arbitrary as designating a group of people the "legislature". They also have just as much force backing them up.

I accept the penalty of opening my mouth without understanding. I was just looking for an in and couldnt come up with much

Fair enough.

 

[BlackCat]

It really has less to do with the other person, and more to do with staking out a position and exploring all the surrounding angles.

Yeah I would guess that a lot of the type 4's who get trolled see it as a personal attack, rather than an attack on their ideas. I say this because that seems to be the most common conflict, a few type 4's vs a few ENTPs. That's why it seems so offensive. There is no tone of voice over the internet (unless that race from Mass Effect 2 who inserts the emotional tone before a sentence exists, which I seriously doubt! ). In real life... if a debate like that arose, the tone of voice wouldn't be verbally abusive or anything ridiculous like that that's perceived here. It's more curious, thoughtful, and playful. I'm sometimes amazed by the hostility that I see here, since something like that would probably not happen over something so retarded in real life.

To answer marm's question, yes you can pretty easily get to know what the types are like online. But being trollbait isn't a great way of doing that. The way I see most of these conflicts go, is that type 4 NFP will get offended at something the ENTP says. So they go aggro on the person. ANYONE will get defensive when someone gets aggressive with them... so what does the ENTP do? Sure they get defensive, but their idea of being defensive, especially over the internet, is to steamroll someone with their mind. Thus, conflict. I think that the main point that the ENTPs have been trying to get across to these people is just to engage them on an equal level. Logically analyzing and being fair, not being personally offensive and vengeful. That confuses them. This is just from observing, lol.

AND THEN THE THREAD DIED.

EDIT: Amargith is a 4! Not a 9. She just wants threads to actually go somewhere, it's not a reason out of keeping the peace. Trust me, I've talked to her enough to know she's 4.

 

[Qre:us]

If someone takes delight in making someone cry, they have severe psychological problems.

I'd agree that taking delight/poking, in hopes that someone cries, yeah, severe psychological problems. For example:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/1044088-post898.html

Look Jag, we're in agreement.

 

[Jaguar]

I'd agree that taking delight/poking, in hopes that someone cries, yeah, severe psychological problems.

Sure thing, Q.

 

[Qre:us]

Sure thing, Q.

Wait, since you've said earlier that I'm the little girl in the pic:

Do they have birds shitting on their head?

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/1055958-post6.html

You're doing it again? Taking pleasure in a little girl's fear? Oh, Jag. Where's your humanity?

 

[Jaguar]

Wait, since you've said earlier that I'm the little girl in the pic:


http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/1055958-post6.html

You're doing it again? Taking pleasure in a little girl's fear? Oh, Jag. Where's your humanity?

Stop wasting my time.

 

[Qre:us]

Stop wasting my time.

 

[Qre:us]

My behaviour....

True, and the thing is, I have a pretty twisted sense of humor. Some of my favorite people on this site are meanly funny. I even find you and Qre:us funny sometimes, yet at other times feel backed into a corner by irrational tertiary Fe. I've even had INFJs confirm that ENTPs will do this - back people into corners. It's very nasty, and it's almost like bullying. The reason why I don't have this response to NTJs is because they don't seem to relish cornering people who are crying. Maybe there's something about Ni in general that backs off, and something about Ne in general that keeps going, which maybe why ENTPs and NFPs bug each other ... it's not just the Ti/Fi thing to blame.

No.

The cornering you speak of in a discussion is not irrational Fe....it's NeTi and it seems harsh because there's a distinct lack of F-warmth, although it's not intentional. In real life interactions, such things are smoothened by my personal presence and delivery.

And, there's very specific reasons when I corner someone on a personal front, where, yes, it is Fe, being employed.

See:

Just wrt the ENTPs

I'd make a guess and say this isnt Fe-the backing in a corner. They are debating about Fe, but they are using NeTi in a highly aggressive manner-that's the point-counterpoint you are seeing.

This can be really fun IRL if on an issue you are not emotionally invested in, but in text comes across exceptionally harsh. It even stings me, so I have to take a minute sometimes and replay the text in my mind as though it came from my ENTP to find the right verbal tone. Even then her and I have had a few highly emotive displays regarding jungian functions. (The parallels in those convos are amazingly similar to the convos that happen here-the topics)

When an ENTP uses Fe I see two things happen-

1.they will actually not reply to your posts. You kinda get shunned, albeit I cannot speak for the internal feelings/motivations that are ascribed to this behavior. I think they observe I am combative and thus they will refrain from interacting-it really does disturb them???

2. They play a cute cat and mouse game to lure you into a trap then spring it on you. This seems to be Fe being used in the service of NeTi perhaps?? Never piss off an ENTP in real life. They are the tops at this game.

Yes, this rings true. It's a distinct lack of Fe that gets interpreted as "harsh" by others.

Because:

It really has less to do with the other person, and more to do with staking out a position and exploring all the surrounding angles.

^ This. I'm really involved in understanding the idea, which means trying to take it apart, and seeing how easily it crumbles. Because if it doesn't, it means, it's solid.

And, I'll zero in on the idea, but "attack" it from multiple angles, which could seem like I may be "cornering", i.e., isolating the idea, and then attacking it from multiple different angles, and quite fast-paced too.

I've noticed that usually when I'm in NeTi mode, on this forum, if someone agrees with a post of mine, I don't really do the validation stuff (I see it as somewhat trivial). I just tackle the parts that are still unclear, not agreed on, up for debate. Which may make the other person feel like I'm not trying to play nice, because they've said they agree with parts of my idea, while I come back and "attack" theirs. That's really not my intention. It's simply that what is agreed upon is resolved, there's no need to give attention to it, so, I just tackle what is still up for debate.

And, when Fe joins the fun, it's exactly how Happy Puppy outlined 1 and 2.

From myself, on this board, I've noticed that my Fe is usually employed in a negative way, when I see:

(a) that the other is starting to take the idea dissection personally,
(b) when someone has made a righteously ignorant comment (by my standard, like a bigoted comment, homophobic comment, sexist comment, etc),
(c) when someone is trying to feed me/us bullshit but not in a joking manner. They are taking it seriously, and asking the audience to do so as well (seeing arrogance in another, where it implies that others are of less value, more stupid, also qualifies),
(d) when someone unfairly attacks another with an honest inquiry (sans implied judgement),
(e) when I'm getting trolled, or have gotten trolled by that person
(f) when someone is passive-aggressive with me
(g) when someone takes the first shot to make it personal, i.e., inviting me to "play", and that's when I say, "You wanna play? Let's play." <- usually results in one-upmanship from my end, as in, they start the game, I'll finish it.

^ good or bad, there you have it.

This is the internet, and they probably just think it's funny to troll you and don't take this seriously at all. ENTPs don't really do that in the real world... if they cared about you I really can't see why that would happen. The only time that I've really been cornered by anyone in real life is in an impersonal debate... and nothing really personal. That's not really much of an offense, just the way a debate goes.

It's kind of sad that people take these ENTP-NFP relations that happen on the internet seriously, because it just doesn't seem to be like this at all in reality.

+ 1, I get along famously with my best friend's sister, an ENFP, and I adore my mother, and she loves my personality, and she's INFP, and my ex-roomie and I got along famously, another INFP.

Well, wouldn't it be nice if they gave us better examples of themselves so we could learn to recognize them better in real life?

I'm only a stellar example for understanding and communication, with others on this board, who I think are willing to engage with me half-way, without too easily seeing my intent as purposely stepping on their toes (their personal hesitation with me, I can smell it, which makes me not really give a fuck).

I have amazing online relationships with quite a few NFPs on this board, and we communicate in great depths to better understand each other, our motivations, and esp. learning how to better understand each other's Ti/Fe and Fi/Te. I don't extend that to everyone (not logical, in terms of energy), esp. when they are the ones I see breaking (a)-(g) quite frequently. As for the rest, on this board; they are anonymous entities to me. I'm neutral towards them.

Those who would use crying as a tactic or a weapon also have severe psychological problems.

Amen.

EDIT, to add: if one or more of (a)-(g) is not broken, I actually find "meanly funny" being directed at a person, to be bullying, and those who find enjoyment out of it, to be condoning bullying. I don't find any humour in getting enjoyment out of being mean (funny or otherwise) towards an underserved person.

/ long off-topic post, but, marm brought my name into it, so.....

 

[simulatedworld]

Correction - men susceptible to peer pressure don't wear pink.
Men who aren't susceptible, wear whatever the hell they want. :hi:

Like pink bunny slippers!

Stop wasting my time.

Isn't this whole forum thing one gigantic time-wasting black hole?


Anyway, on a note unrelated to the above Jaguar quotes:

I think the ENTP online dickery thing is comparable to, say, an ESTP who joins a boxing team in his free time. He really enjoys the physical competition but he can't just go around punching everyone in his everyday life, so he finds an outlet.

I think we find being openly abrasive much more acceptable on the internet because it's so easy to just ignore us/choose not to participate if you don't want to argue. It's different from real life because in real life, if we're attacking you, it's difficult to ignore. On here, you can easily just not respond to us, or put us on your ignore list. It's that simple.

It takes (at least) two people to argue. If there's only one person who really wants to argue, then no argument can occur. Remember that.

 

[Jaguar]

Like pink bunny slippers!

Of course!

I think the ENTP online dickery thing is comparable to, say, an ESTP who joins a boxing team in his free time. He really enjoys the physical competition but he can't just go around punching everyone in his everyday life, so he finds an outlet.

Not all ENTPs behave like cockroaches, Sim.
But there are many in this forum who do.
Frankly, I don't think they'd have the guts to say half the shit they do in this forum, to someone's face.

 

[onemoretime]

Of course!


Not all ENTPs behave like cockroaches, Sim.
But there are many in this forum who do.
Frankly, I don't think they'd have the guts to say half the shit they do in this forum, to someone's face.

That's some mighty fine projection you've got going on there, bud.