[ENFJ] ENFJs... Help me help myself by helping me!

[toast]

So...
I'm going to try as hard as I can to make this not a long ranting post so I will actually get some replies.

I'm with / was with an ISTP. I'm ENFJ. Both very true to type. Relationship very intense but full of conflict. Bad, bad history. Things got better. Much better, to the point where we looked compatible / happy from the outside.

But... his passive / detached / lack of any 'need' for me makes me so insecure that I end up giving too much, more than I want to, like I'm attempting to push for feedback. So I'm in love with the intensity we have, but overwhelmed by how unsatisfied & tired I am. I give too much, even though I don't want to, and then I judge how little he gives back. That's my problem with me.

This behavior in turn makes him feel overwhelmed & anxious. He feels judged & like at every moment something is expected from him. He gets resentful when I'm upset. Then tells me to directly ask for what I want or explain my feelings without blame. I do this, then he finds blame in what I'm saying, even when it is as simple as "I'm feeling bad." Then he gets resentful & ignores me. That's my problem with him.

Eventually I snap & my outburst 'confirms' his fears. I become judgmental, I feel entitled to more. I make ultimatums but don't focus on believing in the resolving outcome. So they come out like conclusions & make him feel that he can't change anything. He is more passive, making me more angry, and then they do become conclusions. Then he calms down & starts to feel hopeful, I calm down and feel hopeless. He gives a little. I feel a little better but can't appreciate it fully because it came so late. It gets better, we get happy, I get too intense, he pulls away, cycle continues.

I separated from him about a week ago. I don't know what I'm doing but I have an idea. I don't want to make him unhappy anymore. I need to get out of this pattern of never taking care of myself & giving him more than he wants & more than I want to give. He is obviously scared I'm leaving him, & has freaked out a couple times, but otherwise seems to be okay. Neither of us will bring up whether or not its actually over. He is definitely avoiding it & I'm not wanting to deal with him putting in a position where he makes me decide & its all on me. Not right now. We live together, but have been extremely busy so we are seeing almost nothing of each other.

I am afraid because I don't know whether I'm trying to heal a little & then try again or if I want this to be over. I most definitely want to be with him, but I don't know if I believe it will work anymore. Distance like this always seems to make him closer to me, but distance for me is a real love killer. I'm afraid that when he does try again & / or I feel more capable, I will have recovered by resigning myself that it would never work.

Either way, I need some advice, related experiences, anything. I just need to talk about it. I have friends / family to talk to but they've honestly heard enough about this relationship for a lifetime I'm sure. It is just extremely terrifying that feeling better is right now correlated with feeling farther from him, especially since I keep getting pangs of emotions & drives to go back to him, but almost instinctively push myself from doing it. It's like I'm on autopilot, and have no idea where I'm going. I'm also concerned this is very unfair to him, as he might be under the impression this is temporary. (It would surprise me if he wasn't because he seems to take everything that way.) But I am very final when relationships change.

So I failed at the ranting... sorry.

 

[Unkindloving]

Sometimes one of the best things you can do is show someone how you describe the situation to others. I would send him this post or the majority of it and ask for his input. It acknowledges the issues on both sides and to both people and what can be altered to make things better.

Relationships are sacrifice. You need to reel yourself in a bit and he needs to reel himself out a bit so it's more evenly distributed. There also needs to be an understanding of time. Things don't happen immediately and people do slip up at times.
If you try to work through it, you just need to find a different way to approach it and both of you need to be less reactant as much as possible.
ENFJs in relationships can be difficult. We tend to give to people and not expect much or anything back, but when the person is our significant other the whole ballgame changes up. We expect a decent amount and are greatly affected by it and/or our lack of handle on it.
I'm not sure how ISTPs are in daily interaction compared to relationship interaction so i can't comment on them, but i'm sure it can be just as interesting.

I hope things get sorted in one way or another. You can only sacrifice so much of yourself so do what can benefit you and what you can handle.

 

[syndatha]

The way you describe it, it seems like the bad circle starts with you judging him for not giving enough, and that overwhelms him. Remember that it is not possible to make other people change, you can only change yourself, and hope that this will make them decide to change as well.

You really need to find out if you want him, just the way he is. He's not going to be as intensely giving as yourself - he's ISTP, not ENFJ
He has other qualities

I also wonder if your pattern is a way to create intensity which isn't really there. No wonder it makes him nervous

What do you want? What does he want?

I've only had one experience with an ISTP; my second boyfriend. He was 18 and I was 14 when we started dating. We were together for almost 3 years, and it took me 9 months to break up with him. Is your boyfriend older than you?

 

[visaisahero]

All you really need to do is to communicate. Write him a letter telling him how you feel about all this!

 

[kasabian]

But... his passive / detached / lack of any 'need' for me makes me so insecure that I end up giving too much, more than I want to, like I'm attempting to push for feedback. So I'm in love with the intensity we have, but overwhelmed by how unsatisfied & tired I am. I give too much, even though I don't want to, and then I judge how little he gives back. That's my problem with me.

Can I just ask you a question? In what ways do you want him to 'need' you?

This behavior in turn makes him feel overwhelmed & anxious. He feels judged & like at every moment something is expected from him. He gets resentful when I'm upset. Then tells me to directly ask for what I want or explain my feelings without blame. I do this, then he finds blame in what I'm saying, even when it is as simple as "I'm feeling bad." Then he gets resentful & ignores me. That's my problem with him.

Oh haha, this reminds me of my relationship with an ENFJ. I react to something that he has done to make ME upset. I ignore him thinking HE is the one to make amends and somehow I gauge that he is now upset and I always have to be the one apologising. But do you think the ENFJ will accept my attempts to make amends? No it's a long drawn out process.

I snap & my outburst 'confirms' his fears. I become judgmental, I feel entitled to more. I make ultimatums but don't focus on believing in the resolving outcome. So they come out like conclusions & make him feel that he can't change anything. He is more passive, making me more angry, and then they do become conclusions. Then he calms down & starts to feel hopeful, I calm down and feel hopeless. He gives a little. I feel a little better but can't appreciate it fully because it came so late. It gets better, we get happy, I get too intense, he pulls away, cycle continues.

It sounds like to me that you can't communicate your needs effectively and feel guilty for doing so. This seems to be the thing you need to prioritise/work out.

I am afraid because I don't know whether I'm trying to heal a little & then try again or if I want this to be over. I most definitely want to be with him, but I don't know if I believe it will work anymore. Distance like this always seems to make him closer to me, but distance for me is a real love killer. I'm afraid that when he does try again & / or I feel more capable, I will have recovered by resigning myself that it would never work.

If you want to be with him then you should try to work it out, even if you don't know if it will. You won't make peace with yourself until you know for sure.

way, I need some advice, related experiences, anything. I just need to talk about it. I have friends / family to talk to but they've honestly heard enough about this relationship for a lifetime I'm sure. It is just extremely terrifying that feeling better is right now correlated with feeling farther from him, especially since I keep getting pangs of emotions & drives to go back to him, but almost instinctively push myself from doing it. It's like I'm on autopilot, and have no idea where I'm going. I'm also concerned this is very unfair to him, as he might be under the impression this is temporary. (It would surprise me if he wasn't because he seems to take everything that way.) But I am very final when relationships change.

So I failed at the ranting... sorry.

Sorry but I feel for the guy because I feel like ENFJs have these hidden expectations and then get upset at their partners for not living up to them when the partner has no idea that they were supposed to 'be that way' in the first place. To be honest, you come off a bit wishy washy now, which is understandable because you're upset, so how on earth is your partner able to know what the 'right thing' to do is when you don't really know yourself.

 

[BlueFlame]

It really sounds like you're simply not getting your needs met in this relationship, so in true ENFJ form, you've been Fe-ing him to death. We tend to lead subtly and by example, and to try to woo people into meeting our needs willingly...and that's fine unless we need something someone can't easily give or we're dealing with someone who just doesn't *get* hints.

I've never dated an ISTP, but I've dated other Ti-doms, and their independence and lack of neediness is so alluring - they're everything I think we tend to admire, and at first, it's a welcome break from the world of people who need us.

But, personally, I've found that I can't exist like that long term. I go from admiration to mild frustration to feeling like I'm screaming at a brick wall and ripping myself into pieces to to be *happy* and keep the peace. I would never have considered myself to be needy until I dated a Ti-dom. He was an amazing person, but the dynamic exhausted us both, and I didn't like who I became with him, so we parted ways.

I guess my point is that any pairing can work when combined with other positive factors, but the fact that you will need more from him than he needs from you. ISTPs tend to desire an independent life that meets together with their mates occasionally, I think, versus the ENFJ need to affect and be affected on a more constant basis. He is who he is and you are who you are, and you can either accept each other without judgment or move on. Such is life!

I think a good starting point is figuring out what your expectations are and clearly communicating them to him. I think half the time we can't put a finger on what we want, but we know we want SOMETHING so we charge in blindly with Fe and then get disappointed when the other person can't figure it out either. Prime fuel for Volcano ENFJ to erupt, no?
Anyway, if you can ckealry define what you need, he may be better able to look at himself and honestly decide if he can be that person, and you can look at yourself and see what parts of your being you're willing to sacrifice and what parts you hold onto to survive, and decide together if it's really time to let go or come back together stronger.

 

[toast]

ENFJs in relationships can be difficult. We tend to give to people and not expect much or anything back, but when the person is our significant other the whole ballgame changes up. We expect a decent amount and are greatly affected by it and/or our lack of handle on it.

This sums up a lot that has bothered me in my relationship with him. I have definitely felt like it doesn't make sense how instantly sensitive I become in an SO relationship. Like BlueFlame said, I have never, and I'm seriously sure, felt anywhere near 'needy' in a relationship before the ISTP. I guess I got just enough emotional connection back, so naturally I never had to think about it. But it seems like my needs are exaggerated because he connects less. This seems so illogical and absurd. I keep telling myself I can treat it, feedback wise, like a friendship. But then I fail & feel guilty, like if I could fix this one thing everything would be okay, but I can't.

Can I just ask you a question? In what ways do you want him to 'need' you?

I'm very aware that I need emotional feedback from time to time, and appreciative responses I can understand, to be happy in a SO relationship. It seems like he needs nothing more than to know that I like sitting on the couch with him, I'm not screwing anyone else & I'll feel bad for him when he's sick. He's so low maintenance that he appears to only really want the idea of being with me, but nothing that actually comes from me seems to phase him. I feel like I'm in a long distance relationship but he's right there the whole time. Like I'm just sitting in the background & he seldom considers that I'm actually there. (And I know this isn't entirely true.) So I wave my hands trying to get him to take notice of me, but because he doesn't seem to see me I wave them harder than I would with someone else.

Sometimes I can't even believe him when he says how he feels because of how autonomous he is. Like he has said this week that if I leave him, he'll be "wrecked" and never get over it. And he's said he's "going out of his mind" but he's friggen telling me that while he's out with his friends or on his computer, or going about his day as normal as can be.

Oh haha, this reminds me of my relationship with an ENFJ. I react to something that he has done to make ME upset. I ignore him thinking HE is the one to make amends and somehow I gauge that he is now upset and I always have to be the one apologizing. But do you think the ENFJ will accept my attempts to make amends? No it's a long drawn out process.

This sounds about right. And makes me feel like sh*t. I have actually tried to work on this but have had little luck. I think this is where our past (which was pretty nasty for me) really mucks things up. It seems like when he gets upset about something 'I' do, I'm already pissed at him for something I consider much bigger, so I feel like making amends is giving in on something larger. And I don't know if this is just him, but when I do try to make things right, he definitely takes longer to warm back up to me than I do to him when he's the one to apologize. That whole situation is one of his biggest complaints though, and I know he's right, so I'll definitely keep working on it. I've actually been thinking maybe the time I'm taking away from him can be best used to get over the issues in the past that neither of us can change, so they aren't hanging over my head all the time.

The way you describe it, it seems like the bad circle starts with you judging him for not giving enough, and that overwhelms him. Remember that it is not possible to make other people change, you can only change yourself, and hope that this will make them decide to change as well.

Oh I know it starts with me. It makes me feel terrible & inferior because all the while I'm angry at not feeling loved while what he's doing works fine for him. Its like he could run the relationship perfectly by just pretending it isn't there & I'm killing it by making it a priority. Its messed up.

What do you want? What does he want?

Well, I don't know what he wants. It'd probably take him 12 years to figure that out & then be ready to get back to me. I feel like he just wants a buddy with some special secret pact to always be there in case he gets the inkling to get cuddly or sexual. Sometimes, for moments, I can tell he likes the idea that he's a 'boyfriend.' Its like he wants a gf just so he can have those moments, but otherwise he just wants a friend. I'd be okay with it if he'd be there for me when I wanted to feel like a gf, but of course, he gives less of that kind of stuff than I do & I need more of it than he does.

I think a good starting point is figuring out what your expectations are and clearly communicating them to him. I think half the time we can't put a finger on what we want, but we know we want SOMETHING so we charge in blindly with Fe and then get disappointed when the other person can't figure it out either. Prime fuel for Volcano ENFJ to erupt, no?

Though I have asked him clearly & directly for specifics before, its true that for the most part, I don't know how to define "emotional connection" in his language. I just want to feel him feeling something for me, more than never, and I want him to do things for me that show I'm appreciated, sometimes. I want to be reminded why he loves me or even likes me, because my mind will literally come to the conclusion that we have nothing in common, he doesn't find me interesting & he's just holding on because of the idea of 'us'. Its like he spends all his time quickly analyzing meaningless details about objects around him, while he moves through internal or emotional or relationship analyzing at the speed of a turtle, making him relatively stable. While I am constantly churning those internal things so quickly that I need reassurance from him to believe in us. He doesn't believe in us any more than I do, but he doesn't get as hopeless as me when there's no evidence we are doing okay, because he's simply not looking for it. Its not about changing who he is, its about getting him to give a little reassurance / affirmation now & then to help me out. But I definitely need to keep trying to define that, because I've said about as much & he seems clueless.

The thing that is so friggen frustrating is I am trying so so so hard to stop this judging that starts the cycle and do my part to make it work but he won't give me any support at all. He won't even acknowledge that I'm trying. He always tells me to word thing differently so they don't sound judgmental & I do every time I talk to him now, but he takes his guilt or whatever and twists it to imply that I'm still being accusative. I'll say: "I'm not feeling too good." and he'll say "why?", I'll say "I was really hoping to ... with you" or "It feel bad when you talk like that" & he's instantly just: "There you go again!" Then I'm wrong, & he can walk away from me without even considering my feelings. He has said that empathizing is so hard for him that he has to completely concentrate to do it. I seriously feel like he looks for any excuse to cop out of it. I really think if he supported me, than being with him could really help me grow a lot. I'm sure if I really felt loved by him, and more certain of our future, even once, I'd be able to live in the present with him sometimes & over analyze us less.

 

[Unkindloving]

Hm. I'm going to paraphrase a sentiment that Fuzzcrossed threw my way. He was telling me that others will give and show love when you are being more dependent on yourself. With less expectation, they will be more prone to showing more. The discussion was based on friends, but it does apply to relationships.
You're focusing on your ISTP and relationship so much that it's taking what you need for yourself. It's likely why you need so much more back from him/why it is so damaging to not see it returned. If a person loses their grounding then a relationship can become even more unbalanced. You do need to take a breath, shake it off as much as you can, and regain your ground with yourself.
This doesn't mean don't communicate your thoughts and feelings with your ISTP, but try not to invest so much of yourself if it causes so much damage to do so. The stronger you are, the more you can invest without stumbling. Hopefully, as you build your own strength he will view it as more welcoming and provide more. If not, then you are stronger and still gain from it.

I've been trying to come to a conclusion about T vs F emotions and handling situations. Your mention of your ISTP going about his daily business while telling you intense feelings that don't match up is a potential example.
I'm under the impression that Thinkers are amazing at compartmentalizing their feelings and tasks. They separate both and don't tend to take them both into account unless absolutely necessary, thus they aren't frequently impeded in their actions.
Feelers (especially ENFJs) are bombarded by taking both feelings and tasks into account at the same time and, when we compartmentalize, feelings and tasks are paired up and sectioned off. It impedes us a lot and can cause us to look at Thinkers narrowly when we are involved and get tripped up.

I'm dealing with it from my INTJ friend and it twists my insides up when i know she is functioning perfectly well. It twists it up so much that i can forget how she really works and internalizes things.
If you agree/disagree definitely share.

Another thing- it is daunting to decipher yourself as an ENFJ. It's daunting when you do decipher what you're thinking and feeling for other people and they want you to break it down even further. You should communicate that if you think the same. I view it as another thing you're giving that you might not even see. We're a type that is built up when people can figure out what we are saying. While it may be sparing his feelings to tip-toe around certain phrasing, it could be more draining and damaging to you to do so frequently.

 

[jtanSis1]

First realize that your values are different, he wants only fun, while you want depth, which is a huge gap to cross. Second, he's going to express himself differently than you, which can be easy once you realize this is how he cares. Your challenge is going to be that you are going to have to let him have his way from time to time and see if he reciprocates. If not, then he's not paying attention to you and doesn't really care.

 

[fireandwater]

You don't say how old you are or whether you have kids, but assuming you have no permanent commitment or children together, this is my advice: I think you need to ask yourself why you want to be in a relationship which makes you unhappy. The intensity you describe, combined with the obvious incompatibility and unhappiness you describe, suggests to me that you are playing out deep seated emotional conflicts/ childhood history/ ingrained mythology.

I had this problem when I was younger and was drawn to two unhealthy relationships in a row: INTP and ESTP, probably, the types, but more importantly the men and my relationships with them were severely dysfunctional and yet I would not let go. I also felt magically, mysteriously and intensely drawn to them. I recommend you maintain as much distance as you can handle while doing some serious inner work. In particular, since you are an NF like me, I recommend you get ahold of a book called Personal Mythology by Stanley Krippner and David Feinstein which will help you work through the unconscious mythologies which are controlling your life and choose more consciously the mythologies you want to live. I have been happily married for 15 years to an ISFP who I felt drawn to as I was undergoing the process of transforming myself. You may find that if you are healthier you would rather not be with this guy after all, or you may figure out how to make it work from your end.

If you do have kids together, then I think you may need to work counseling and couples counseling into this process.

I wish you the best of luck.

 

[21%]

I can totally relate to your post about giving too much and not getting enough back. Being an NFJ myself, I am sometimes guilty of being too 'intense'. I want to give. I want to make them happy. I want them to say "Oh, you make my life so much better" and appreciate me for being such a wonderful and supportive partner. However, sometimes this can get way out of control. Sometimes when I don't get a desired response I feel rejected. I feel like I am being taken for granted. Sometimes this triggers me to give more and more, as if I'm saying "Look at me. Look at how much I'm doing for you! Please love me". But if there is still no acknowledgment, I get hurt and become resentful. I feel unloved, unneeded. Sometimes even when I know for certain that they have no such intention, it still hurts. Because, deep down, I know all it takes is just one thoughtful gesture to let me know that I'm appreciated, and it hurts that they don't even understand that. One little thing would make me happy. Why didn't they even bother?

One thing that helped me, after going crazy on my INFP for 'not bothering' and later finding out that I was overreacting out of my own insecurities, was that the problem was partially because of my fundamental belief. Fe people have an Fe language, and we all speak it fluently. I've noticed that what goes on in my head gets expressed. Affection is expressed through the 'usual' channels -- talking, spending time together, giving attention. Ti, Te, Fi people don't really speak our language. They speak a totally different language. Sometimes what they do sometimes doesn't mean what we think it means. This isn't a great discovery, but the moment I realized it, I felt that the best thing was just to adjust my attitude -- to be secure in the knowledge that my INFP does like me. And maybe he doesn't feel the need to show it the way I do.

With T types I think it's a bit trickier, because they usually don't have the emotional vulnerability that Fs do. However, I think they can try to understand it logically. "This is how I function. Please read the manuals and operate me the correct way" seems to work. Back it up a little bit with science and statistics. Maybe you could be very subtle and let him 'figure you out' slowly. Ts don't deal well at all with negative emotional outbreaks. The Ts I know stop listening once I get emotional and think that anything I say when I'm being emotional is 'irrational', 'unreliable' and 'not to be taken into consideration (because she's obviously freaking out right now so better let her calm down and then we can talk)'. They don't understand that it doesn't work that way for us. For us, what we intensely feel is what matters.

I'm speaking from my experience so I don't know if it is the same thing you are going through or not. Anyway, I really think your relationship can work, because you obviously care a lot for him. Good luck and hope it works out for the best!

 

[BlueFlame]

I can totally relate to your post about giving too much and not getting enough back. Being an NFJ myself, I am sometimes guilty of being too 'intense'. I want to give. I want to make them happy. I want them to say "Oh, you make my life so much better" and appreciate me for being such a wonderful and supportive partner. However, sometimes this can get way out of control. Sometimes when I don't get a desired response I feel rejected. I feel like I am being taken for granted. Sometimes this triggers me to give more and more, as if I'm saying "Look at me. Look at how much I'm doing for you! Please love me". But if there is still no acknowledgment, I get hurt and become resentful. I feel unloved, unneeded. Sometimes even when I know for certain that they have no such intention, it still hurts. Because, deep down, I know all it takes is just one thoughtful gesture to let me know that I'm appreciated, and it hurts that they don't even understand that. One little thing would make me happy. Why didn't they even bother?

Ouch. Some of my most painful relationship memories (and memories of the closest I've gotten to losing my sanity) are wrapped up in that little bolded area.

You don't say how old you are or whether you have kids, but assuming you have no permanent commitment or children together, this is my advice: I think you need to ask yourself why you want to be in a relationship which makes you unhappy. The intensity you describe, combined with the obvious incompatibility and unhappiness you describe, suggests to me that you are playing out deep seated emotional conflicts/ childhood history/ ingrained mythology.

I had this problem when I was younger and was drawn to two unhealthy relationships in a row: INTP and ESTP, probably, the types, but more importantly the men and my relationships with them were severely dysfunctional and yet I would not let go. I also felt magically, mysteriously and intensely drawn to them. I recommend you maintain as much distance as you can handle while doing some serious inner work. In particular, since you are an NF like me, I recommend you get ahold of a book called Personal Mythology by Stanley Krippner and David Feinstein which will help you work through the unconscious mythologies which are controlling your life and choose more consciously the mythologies you want to live. I have been happily married for 15 years to an ISFP who I felt drawn to as I was undergoing the process of transforming myself. You may find that if you are healthier you would rather not be with this guy after all, or you may figure out how to make it work from your end.

One of the hardest things I had to do was wake up and realize that I'm NOT attracted to the types of men I think I am. I just idealize them for whatever reason (that book sounds extremely helpful, by the way), and survived on nothing but the intensity level - which I also convinced myself I needed. Letting go of those types of men as relationship partners was painful, but it was the best thing I could have done for myself in the long run. Sometimes I still miss the intensity, push/pull kind of feeling, but I don't miss the feeling of desperation and the way I almost became codependent with one or two of them - the power every positive and negative moment, action, word, whatever had on my emotions.
Now I have more energy to invest in myself and the important issues with my ESFP hubby.

The thing that is so friggen frustrating is I am trying so so so hard to stop this judging that starts the cycle and do my part to make it work but he won't give me any support at all. He won't even acknowledge that I'm trying. He always tells me to word thing differently so they don't sound judgmental & I do every time I talk to him now, but he takes his guilt or whatever and twists it to imply that I'm still being accusative. I'll say: "I'm not feeling too good." and he'll say "why?", I'll say "I was really hoping to ... with you" or "It feel bad when you talk like that" & he's instantly just: "There you go again!" Then I'm wrong, & he can walk away from me without even considering my feelings. He has said that empathizing is so hard for him that he has to completely concentrate to do it. I seriously feel like he looks for any excuse to cop out of it. I really think if he supported me, than being with him could really help me grow a lot. I'm sure if I really felt loved by him, and more certain of our future, even once, I'd be able to live in the present with him sometimes & over analyze us less.

Have you tried writing to him saying the above?
The sad fact is. we can give you advice on things you can do yourself to make it better, but not everything is fixable, and you can't fix any relationship alone. Trying that route over and over again is just another was to give and give and give and give until you have nothing left to give.
You HAVE to be able to be yourself, and that includes Fe-ing all over the freaking place. Expressing yourself without tiptoeing around and hypersensitive partner. Needing things and having your partner do his best to meet them without making YOU feel badly in the process, like you're trying to do for him.
He can either meet you there, or he can't.
I agree with fireandwater. Alone time and working on being happy and healthy in other areas of your life might just make you realize he's not even what you want, or it might open your eyes to the *magical key* to make things work.

 

[Domino]

I've been with ISTPs. As remote as they can be, they should want you to the point of sweating blood. They can't hide it which is their greatest fear - being emotionally out of control (welcome to Ti primary land). His activated Fe should be coming at you like a tiger. Constantly holding you off should never enter into the equation. If I were in your position, I'd feel really starved out, misunderstood and confused, three things I find intolerable.

You know you don't want to live in purgation, my dear Toast. Don't settle for what makes you ultimately unhappy. Contortions are for the circus.

 

[Fidelia]

I really, really can identify with many of the NFJ feelings expressed above. While I agree that it is necessary to interpret others correctly, ultimately I think sometimes we can be extremely attracted to people who are not great partners for us. Those feelings of rejection made me redouble my efforts to make things work, even when it was obvious that it wasn't something I should continue investing time and effort into. I am not good with getting no feedback and I felt compelled to somehow provoke some kind of feedback that could inspire change. Even worse, I saw the occasional flash of vulnerability or care that made me keep trying, even though from day to day I felt taken for granted and often treated inconsiderately. That push/pull thing kept reeling me back in. I believe that partially comes from insecurities in the other person which make them cosy up, then distance themselves. The other part probably is exaccerbated by the T/F difference in relating.

Either way, I think I'm with BlueFlame and Domino...

 

[Poki]

But, personally, I've found that I can't exist like that long term. I go from admiration to mild frustration to feeling like I'm screaming at a brick wall and ripping myself into pieces to to be *happy* and keep the peace. I would never have considered myself to be needy until I dated a Ti-dom. He was an amazing person, but the dynamic exhausted us both, and I didn't like who I became with him, so we parted ways.

The bolded reminds me of something my wife(ENFJ) says to me(ISTP). "I make her EMO and needy" and that this was a sign of weakness growing up.

 

[toast]

I'm not doing too well. I don't really feel okay at all actually. Last night was so terrible. He's really starting to freak out over our time apart & show his feelings, but of course they are coming out all aggressive, chaotic and completely without any kind of empathy or support for me. Everything I say makes him worse, everything he says makes me worse. When we are happy we can keep making each other happy. But once one of us is stressed its like every method we use is just mace in the other's eyes.

I just wanted to reply & say I've read everyone's posts.

The point made about me possibly having some deep-rooted insecurities is something I've gone over again & again. I really don't think it has very much to do with this. I can say with certainty, even as uncertain as I am about everything else right now, that I never considered myself overly affectionate, insecure, needy, EMO, anything like that before this relationship. I had what I considered 'normal' or 'healthy' relationships before this one. I always thought I was independent. Giving, yes, but usually I was the one being asked to give, I never felt like I was pushing my love on someone. I have, of course, had relationship trouble before, but nothing devastating to my sense of self. I remember almost instantly feeling insecurities when we got together... but didn't identify them as insecurities, because the concept was a little foreign. I just felt confused, and bad sometimes, but couldn't tell why. It wasn't until later that I realized I was always questioning what he felt about me & whether or not I was doing anything wrong that was making him act the way he did. The personal mythology concept could probably help me a lot though, because my biggest issue right now is cycling through denial & anger at what I know will never happen but can't stop wanting.

Alone time and working on being happy and healthy in other areas of your life might just make you realize he's not even what you want, or it might open your eyes to the *magical key* to make things work.

Right now, I'm just trying to focus on this. Its much easier said than done, considering this emotional crap storm I'm in just keeps telling me what I 'want' is him. Then I have to get away from him, which hurts him, hurting me more in turn. Not to mention, trying to figure out what makes me happy without another person to factor in is almost too overwhelming to bear right now. I don't know if anyone could handle this maelstrom inside of me right now.

I do know he was really insecure before we started dating... and in the beginning. I'm with fidelia in thinking the T/F thing is further aggravated by his insecurities maybe.

Another thing... He seems to emote bad feelings so aggressively. Like, when he's stressed, he's reactive; impatient. He'll cry so hard or hit things or himself if he gets upset enough. Positive emotions are the ones he rarely expresses, and doesn't seem to believe in. I mean, its rare, but I have seen him genuinely happy... That kind of sparkly eyed, jumping step, deep sighs, almost squealing kind of happy. But he won't admit it later. He seems to think true happiness is something he never has or ever will reach. He always says his only experiences of "happiness" are false or sketchy, as in he doesn't believe in them, because they always happen in retrospect. He never actually remembers having positive feelings, so he doesn't like to analyze positive memories because he finds out he was actually unhappy at the time something good was happening. He's said it like that straight so many times. Bad feelings overwhelm him, good feelings escape him, and he makes an obvious effort to suppress both on a regular basis (unless the good feelings have to do with objects & not people).

 

[Domino]

I don't like the sound of this, Toast. At all. Proceed with caution, my dear. And ask yourself if you'd ever let a girlfriend of yours continue on this way.

 

[Fidelia]

T types express insecurities in a way that is typically very hard for F types to relate. Their feelings appear to remain very compartmentalized and any displays of pain are contained within themselves rather than involving the other person (kicking/punching something, becoming more solitary, silence etc). I can't remember who said something about T types when insecure tending to expect people to be on ice for when they want them there, but pursue as many of their own interests or solitude as they like. It seems like they are the one to be considered and adjustments mae for without ever reciprocating. It's hard not to feel rejected and resentful.

In my experience, insecurity really makes it difficult for there to be an equitable back and forth exchange between people. The most insecure person tends to be caught between longing for closeness and being terrified of the vulnerability involved in it. Therefore, whether things are going well as a couple or poorly, they will usually end up doing something to keep things as a comfortable distance.

From what I remember, you said that your bf did not have an easy childhood. Until he faces the effect it had on him and experiences the sadness and futility associated with that, he cannot change course. He will never be able to trust the good things that happen in his life, nor find good in the bad experiences he went through without looking at what happened to him.

They often talk about people with phobias developing an unreasonable fear of something which causes them to avoid it and it keeps growing bigger and worse psychologically in their mind. Over time, the fear is no longer based on any kind of reality at all. The only solution is gradual and frequent exposure that eventually assures the person that they can handle it. I think this is kind of the same way.

Until he is able to attend to his own emotional needs, he will not have either the perception or the energy to deal with yours, even if they are very legitimate. Insecurity makes a person selfish. It doesn't mean they are a bad person, but they sincerely believe that if they don't look out for themselves (even in a misguided way), no one else will. No amount of love you can heap on him will change that. Until he recognizes where that belief comes from, he cannot absorb your love, nor reciprocate it in the way it needs to be reciprocated.

It sounds to me like his panic at losing you is like a child being afraid of losing a parent. He doesn't sound like an equal partner looking at the relationship that feels he has some control in the outcome. He perceives himself as a helpless bystander, at the mercy of fate or you or whatever else, when in fact, he carries the majority of the power in the relationship. In overcoming insecurities that he has carried with him for years, he would gain back a feeling of hope in being able to influence what happens to him as well as resilience even when he suffers loss. He would also then be able to pick up the appropriate load of responsibilities in the relationship, instead of you having to carry everything.

Unfortunately, the prognosis for progress is not generally good in these situations. His wish to overcome his insecurities must trump his fear of facing them. That requires some element of emotional maturity, which he might not have gained if he didn't feel the love and attachment of a caring adult during some of his most formative years.

I don't think he has to be doomed to this fate, but it does take a powerful desire for things to change. The one thing that will help that to happen sooner is if he can find even small ways of becoming more vulnerable. That will soften up some of the defenses so that he can absorb enough love to feel it is safe to look at what has happened to him. An example would be interacting with a pet, which is alive (therefore more vulnerable than an object), yet not as scary as entrusting another person with even positive feelings.

The brain is remarkably resourceful and if it encounters something that is emotionally too much for a person to bear, it will do anything to block their view of it, until it is safer to face. The higher the defenses, the more likely the person is to not have the sight needed to avoid walking into more situations which will wound them and put their defenses up further. The only solution is to soften up some of those walls through becoming vulnerable in little ways first. This will also help him see that what he has been doing is hurting him further and making the situation worse.

It remains for you to ask yourself whether you are willing to take a chance on this never happening. I have experienced a milder form of what you have, and it had a very powerful effect on me. I probably still would be together with the man if he hadn't very suddenly initiated the breakup (despite the fact that he still loved me and desperately wanted to be together). Strangely enough, I recognized even at the time that his behaviour had made me atypically needy, resentful, sad, and emotional. It had a terribly negative effect on me but I couldn't bear to initiate the breakup (until we both were going to leave the isolated community that we were living in and it would force a more permanent sort of decision like moving to the same place and getting married or else breaking up). I craved assurance that I did matter to him, I saw flashes of occasional vulnerability, and I wanted to make things better for him.

After a year, I have realized that his behaviour was a reaction to realizing that there were some issues I couldn't compromise on. This meant that we couldn't be together forever and he was terrified of losing me, so he distanced me before I could leave. Those reactions were long term patterns and he still is unable to face his own fears and feelings even this long later.

My reaction would be to advise you to cut your losses, even though you love him dearly and he is a good person. Staying with him could destroy you in the process and you may actually be preventing him from coming to a place where he faces it all. If he straightens things out, you could always get back together. If he doesn't, you won't have wasted valuable years of your life on someone who can't love you in the way you deserve to be loved - not out of a place of need, but because he has chosen and wants you.

I'm so sorry for you dealing with this, Toast. I can empathize with how much you care and yet how distressed and frustrated you are. I think it's important for you to have the chance to talk about it with a variety of people.

 

[file cabinet]

i think what is important is too look at what you feel now and how you want it to be in the future.
1. "I most definitely want to be with him, but I don't know if I believe it will work anymore"
it is ideal to stay with him but sounds unrealistic based on your experience.

2. "feeling better is right now correlated with feeling farther from him"
do what feels good. his feelings may be hurt but it is your own feelings you need to monitor so you can take of your real emotional needs.

3. "no idea where I'm going."
you sound like you're ready to move on but maybe afraid to make the final decision.

4. "very unfair to him"
based on your post, it is unfair to yourself to remain in the relationship

5. "I failed at the ranting"
you didn't fail and you will make the right decision for you.

focus on how you'll feel after you make any final decisions.

 

[21%]

What an insightful post, fidelia. I feel like I'm going to have to ask myself some of these questions in the future -- something I'm sort of aware of but never even want to think about right now.

Toast: I've been thinking more about this. It takes two healthy people willing to work together for any relationship to really work. If he is unwilling to work with you on this or if his insecurities are getting in the way of better understanding and communication, there is nothing much you can do. It's sad that love alone is not enough to make someone healthy and secure again.

I guess I'm at the beginning stage where I still believe that no matter what, I'll make it work. My situation is entirely different, but I can imagine myself getting burned out in the end. I honestly have no idea what I would do if that day comes.

What struck me the most in your first post was this:

I'm afraid that when he does try again & / or I feel more capable, I will have recovered by resigning myself that it would never work.

I can totally relate. It's part of my fear for my current relationship too. I don't know if simply wanting a relationship with him would be enough, and I know I want it bad. Maybe it's best in the long run to make an adult decision and let it go...

Sorry I don't have any useful advice. Hang in there. Listen to your heart. Only you know best what's the best decision. You'll pull through it