[MBTI General] Are You Sick of Being an N in an S world?

[TheEmeraldCanopy]

How do Sensors perceive Intuitives?

Is there a similar feeling of there being a misunderstanding or a gap in communication? Does this frustrate you (Sensors) from time to time? I'm assuming it would be frustrating on either end.

 

[Laurie]

I'm sick of being an NP in an SJ world.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Why hand out kudos for noting the obvious

Why not?

My previous statement speaks for itself but I'll go into a little more depth.

I guarantee if any one reading this post gave the MBTI to their co-workers or family and friends they would find a mixture of S/N co-existing in a single area of expertise or knowledge. To single out an "S world" or an "N world" is inaccurate because we live in neither of these. We live in both.

But I get it. That's the point of the thread. It's lighthearted. But there's a lot of people who read stuff like this and take it too seriously or feel victimized by the "S or N world" and that's just bullshit.

 

[CzeCze]

Actually, I would be interested to see the test administered in certain jobs/organizations and departments. But, even a professionally administered test doesn't mean results are accurate though, I had the test administered 2x by professionals -once by a counselor in highschool for student government and once in college by a career counselor also for student government. I tested wildly different both times and not ENFP. I think a test at best can tell you how you would *like* to be or how you see yourself.

I do think you will find skews in certain fields. My INTP friend took the MBT test the first day of nursing school (to be RN) and the overwhelming majority of her classmates she said were the same type - ESFJ. She was the lone INTP and there was only 1 other student who got another result.

Of course, it could have been skewed because the students were in 'nursing school' mode and an ESFJ is a pretty good 'template' for an RN.

Just anecdotally...there are a *lot* of INTPs in the computer science/information systems, etc. field.

Not to derail the thread, but jus' saying!

 

[wildcat]

And now imagine how it is like when you are also unsocial, mostly unemotional, planner togather with all of this. (just a thought)

N + ITJ !
It now occurs to me I have so many things to do.

 

[wolfy]

Sometimes I wish I was N so I could be different too.

 

[Fluffywolf]

I'd never be sick of being an N. I love being an N. But I do find that the world caters S's more than N's.

On the other hand, that's a positive thing. I wouldn't want to get everything thrown in my lap in my life. A hard earned penny is worth more than a gifted dollar.

 

[Totenkindly]

I just view being S or N as an insignificant and unremarkable way of categorizing a person and it says very little about you. I personally find out more meaningful information about a person knowing they grew up in Ethiopia and came to America when they were 12 and talking about how their previous life and how they adjusted than them telling me they're an ENFP.

The main thing I think about on a global scale is when I think about being an African-American woman I turn right around and think to myself well at least you're American. And that means a lot. It implies many things about my status that 85% of the world cannot claim. And then I think about my socioeconomic status within America and in reality I'm doing even better. But still if I continue on that vein similar to this thread I could just as easily think I'm sick of being a person of color in a white world. I'm sick of being a woman in a man's world. If I were homosexual I could say the same thing about a heterosexual world, or even religion or being rich, poor, or middle class. This could be political and have more relevance, meaning, and effect more people in a visceral way.

While I'm sort of meh on the topic, and while I really appreciate your input (because I think you've managed to bump the conversation to a wider perspective), I'm going to have to say that some of us have had life experiences and/or trauma that were definitely related to being an N in an S environment... so you don't really have the right to override or discount that.

Maybe that does not describe your experience, or even the majority of experiences, but for me this general lack of being understood by my family and subculture primarily because I was "N" contributed to a lot of loneliness, alienation, self-doubt, and derailing of my success in life until I finally found other people who understood me and believed in me, because I had pretty literally been "S-bombed" into inferiority and irrelevance. I also credit the loss of support from my family to be primarily a clash of vision -- they've only ever seen what's right in front of their faces and are judging me by their single-minded standard, rather than being able to see a range of possibilities for my choices and exploring them with me. The only N relative I have is the only one I have a real relationship with and the only one who understands me.

It wasn't money. It wasn't race. It wasn't resources. It's partly due to religion, partly politics... but I think how we approach religion and spirituality and politics is influenced heavily by our cognitive preferences, so...

 

[Snow Turtle]

While I'm sort of meh on the topic, and while I really appreciate your input (because I think you've managed to bump the conversation to a wider perspective), I'm going to have to say that some of us have had life experiences and/or trauma that were definitely related to being an N in an S environment... so you don't really have the right to override or discount that.

Maybe that does not describe your experience, or even the majority of experiences, but for me this general lack of being understood by my family and subculture primarily because I was "N" contributed to a lot of loneliness, alienation, self-doubt, and derailing of my success in life until I finally found other people who understood me and believed in me, because I had pretty literally been "S-bombed" into inferiority and irrelevance. I also credit the loss of support from my family to be primarily a clash of vision -- they've only ever seen what's right in front of their faces and are judging me by their single-minded standard, rather than being able to see a range of possibilities for my choices and exploring them with me. The only N relative I have is the only one I have a real relationship with and the only one who understands me.

It wasn't money. It wasn't race. It wasn't resources. It's partly due to religion, partly politics... but I think how we approach religion and spirituality and politics is influenced heavily by our cognitive preferences, so...

This can be applied to anything that is perceived as 'deviant'. The main problem appears to be more a fear of unknown or alternatively blatant disrespect for other approaches. Introverts complain about being in an extraverted world and so fourth, the pressure and destruction of self-esteem created from expectations of needing to be social and so fourth. A current example of this would be the battle between athiesm and theism within the UK where we are shifting more towards the former, and just labelling all theists as crazy individuals without further exploration/acceptance of possabilities.

Even within sensing communities, there will be clashes due to the amount of differences that form an individuals (Not talking only about ESTP vs ISFJ). I'm just pointing out that the N-S divide is potentially being exaggerated by the fact that people aren't willing to cross the divide, rather than it not being possible to cross it. The same applies to many other differences in society.

 

[Poki]

I'm sick of being an NP in an SJ world.

Im sick of people assuming I hit tertiary Fi just because I am a man.

I dont get the title in regard to this being an S world(More like a TJ world, with a FP underground).

The NPs I know are actually very capable people in an S world in regard to doing things. They actually read instructions and follow them and miraculously they work(as long as the instructions are correct and the pieces are all their).

 

[Totenkindly]

Even within sensing communities, there will be clashes due to the amount of differences that form an individuals (Not talking only about ESTP vs ISFJ). I'm just pointing out that the N-S divide is potentially being exaggerated by the fact that people aren't willing to cross the divide, rather than it not being possible to cross it. The same applies to many other differences in society.

I agree with you, and that there is an element of will and personal respect/approach to others that determines how the S/N divide plays out.

Maybe in the end the problems still stem from a "hardness of heart" so to speak. If someone chooses to be open, then they will be open regardless.

But I think perception and judgment contributes to what we are exposed to and what we allow ourselves to be exposed to. People who naturally close themselves off from external influence (as a form of purification or self-protection) will not be forced to confront or accept other views and even when they make the effort will be rotten at it until they get some experience on how to do it appropriately.

And as soon as we start discussing "openness" and similar qualities, we're going to have some overlap with MBTI archetypes. Various archetypes naturally embody a particular range of openness that determines the "starting point(s)" for people who approach life that way.

One thing I have appreciated as I have aged was to find people who type the same as others I've had issues with but express a far different level of openness. It's only been in the last few years where I have experienced far more flexibility in some archetypes that I had not seen previously. In this case, I think it's a generational issue = exposure to far more influences and ways of thinking.

So I am seeing some of what you're saying now, finally. However, it's very hard to distinguish "willingness to cross to the line" from "perception of the value of crossing the line." The two are sort of meshed together; if someone thinks openness will allow for subpar values to influence them, they won't be willing.

 

[Seymour]

I would add my agreement for Jennifer's generational/cultural hypothesis. I find most younger people of whatever type to be more flexible and open (on the whole) than most people of my generation were at the same age. I think it's even more striking when I compare the environment now to the environment of my parents' generation (they were in high school in the mid-1950s). As a culture here in the US, we now (more than we once did) value flexibility, openness, and the ability to deal with the easy availability of lots of information.

In a way, I was brought up in a fairly rigid 1950s-style culture (despite the date on the calendar) and I think that had an effect on my early experiences as an INFP. I think our culture is more accepting of individual variation now, but I still think the experience of feeling type-atypical (in whatever direction) depends more on immediate family and local community.

 

[Jaguar]

I'm just pointing out that the N-S divide is potentially being exaggerated by the fact that people aren't willing to cross the divide, rather than it not being possible to cross it. The same applies to many other differences in society.

The N-S divide you speak of is frequently a result of forced-choice questions being used in testing.
If you remove the forced-choice question format, the results are dramatically different.
What may appear to be true using MBTI and MBTI clones, does not necessarily hold true when using an alternative method of testing.
That means the N-S divide is illusory in and of itself, and not as concrete as people think.

On a societal level the divide can be crossed by anyone, at any time.
All anyone has to do is walk across the line.
But in case you hadn't noticed, some people pretend their legs are broken.

They "can't" walk.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

The NPs I know are actually very capable people in an S world in regard to doing things. They actually read instructions and follow them and miraculously they work(as long as the instructions are correct and the pieces are all their).

You need to introduce me to some of these NPs so I can find out their secret.

Seriously though, I am not a ditzy mess that some might stereotype. But I do struggle with scatterbrainedness a bit. Somedays more than others.

Most affectionate, but somewhat accurate term ever applied to this ENFP? Flibberdigibit.

 

[Poki]

You need to introduce me to some of these NPs so I can find out their secret.

Seriously though, I am not a ditzy mess that some might stereotype. But I do struggle with scatterbrainedness a bit. Somedays more than others.

Most affectionate, but somewhat accurate term ever applied to this ENFP? Flibberdigibit.

I can easily seperate the scatterbrain from the other parts.

 

[proteanmix]

While I'm sort of meh on the topic, and while I really appreciate your input (because I think you've managed to bump the conversation to a wider perspective), I'm going to have to say that some of us have had life experiences and/or trauma that were definitely related to being an N in an S environment... so you don't really have the right to override or discount that.

Maybe that does not describe your experience, or even the majority of experiences, but for me this general lack of being understood by my family and subculture primarily because I was "N" contributed to a lot of loneliness, alienation, self-doubt, and derailing of my success in life until I finally found other people who understood me and believed in me, because I had pretty literally been "S-bombed" into inferiority and irrelevance. I also credit the loss of support from my family to be primarily a clash of vision -- they've only ever seen what's right in front of their faces and are judging me by their single-minded standard, rather than being able to see a range of possibilities for my choices and exploring them with me. The only N relative I have is the only one I have a real relationship with and the only one who understands me.

It wasn't money. It wasn't race. It wasn't resources. It's partly due to religion, partly politics... but I think how we approach religion and spirituality and politics is influenced heavily by our cognitive preferences, so...

I guess this is what I was getting at from the beginning: perceptual filters frame how we categorize things. I'm not discounting anyone's experience, just trying to point out how things as seemingly simple as geography can affect experiences. It's been said by several people in this thread about factors like confirmation bias effecting how we type another person. I do not believe that this is a S/N divide I believe it's a matter of having people around you that share the a compatible belief system, core values, cultural values (micro and macro), mentality, outlook, compatible traits, similar backgrounds, experiences, and things like that. When those synchronize and merge between people you get people who "understand" you, who you "connect" with, who you can develop something beyond what most people you come into contact with are capable of giving you. I suppose you categorize these things as Sensing and Intuition and I don't. Are we talking about the same thing with a different name or are we talking about completely difference things? If you're saying that being S or N influences those traits then I have to go back to my post you quoted and say that I think socioeconomics are stronger indicators than function preferences.

Another thing that I've thought about are expectations of being understood. Should I expect to be understood? Who should I expect to understand me? Why should they understand me? Have I recognized and acknowledged their efforts to understand me? Am I communicating myself clearly enough to be understood? Do I understand them? How much effort am I giving to understand them? How well am I demonstrating that I understand them? Is there reciprocity...is this balanced? TBH, this takes a lot of effort at least for me and I imagine it does for another person. I don't expect to be understood mostly so when I'm not it's not something that upsets me. But neither do I believe that the people around me are incapable of understanding or that I have some greater perspective than they do because invariably something will happen to knock me down a peg or two and show me I don't know jack. I know you're referring to your family and I think it's reasonable to expect a high level of understanding from family. I can't comment on your family dynamics and of course you would know where to attribute a rift in understanding between you all better than me. One could argue though that if you knew this was an intuitive relative and you expected a better understanding and acted in ways to get that understanding then your behaviors resulted in a better understanding. But like I said, I don't pretend to know the particular dynamics within your family.

I know know know about "church folk." I don't talk about it on the forum, but Jen I've read your experiences they closely align with mine. I guess for me just being the person I am, I've always found people even within a certain system I don't agree with that I can vibe with even if the search was hard. I'm pretty persistent about these things. I'm willing to accept being understood by very few people and for those who I've chosen to reveal myself to I've got a exceptionally good rate of what I feel is mutual understanding. LOL, when I lower my expectations things suddenly get better as far as my outlook is concerned.

For some reason, I get the feeling that people think sensors are more susceptible to indoctrination which prevents them from thinking critically, questioning their beliefs, and being willing to dismantle their belief systems if need be. I'm seeing some talk in the last few posts about being open and open-minded. I've yet to see a good working definition of what that means. For now, I'll say that if a major component of a person's self-concept is being "open-minded" then they'll act in ways that they believe conform to an/their open-minded ideal. This is just me theorizing (or maybe I read this somewhere who knows!) but if their ideal of being open-minded can become a dogma that they abide as strictly as some legalist Christian. I guess the next step is to figure out what the consequences of being dogmatically open-minded is, or dogmatically anything. Some people would say that extreme versions of anything is bad, although see how being extreme under certain circumstances could be beneficial.

I've forgotten how I was going to connect that all together so I'll stop for now.

 

[Seymour]

My guess is that it isn't always beneficial if your natural type meshes too perfectly with your social environment, in the sense that then there can be little impetuous to develop anything past your top two functions. I think we grow when our current ways of coping and understanding are insufficient.

In some ways, I think our culture has moved a bit too far away from valuing some of the stereotypical 50s STJ-ish virtues. I think we emphasize being smart and talented over the value of perseverance, conscientiousness and hard work. We don't always do a good job of teaching that thoroughness and attention to detail are necessary, too. Some people aren't forced to learn those lessons well into adulthood, much to their detriment.

 

[Laurie]

I'm sick of being an NP in an SJ world.

I just answered with what I consider made me "not fit in" the most. I've also had J/P clashes with my IJ husband for years so that certainly didn't help. I struggled in school even though I had no problems comprehending anything. All because of my glorious Pness. The N has just made me not quite fit in in other ways which I'm too lazy to specify or deliberate on right now.

I actually love being NP - I just think it's made my life less smoooth.

SJ's have the same amount of complaints about the world that I do, I'm sure. Life isn't easy on anyone. In this case I'm just talking about me becase that is the life I've lived.

 

[odetoio]

“Phenomenal cosmic power, itsy-bitsy living space” –the Genie, Aladdin

I think what I find most annoying is the people who are too quick to judge; the need to categorize so perceivable understanding may be claimed. It’s just a way for these types to remain comfortable with themselves, maybe their own insecurity with an unknown? I’ve been called all manner of names this is what I get for working in engineering which seems to be almost devoid of N’s, lots of Judges though. Sometimes it’s better to just don the persona they expect to some degree, better work flow. I had one job working in the Oil and Gas Industry and this was certainly the thing to do when in the field, Drill Rig workers something about red and neck.

Another situation which drives me crazy is trying to get to know women. By that I mean, and this may be a gross simplification of the matter, but I get the impression a lot of women are able to categorize men in a few types. The Player / Couthless Horn-dog, the Needy / Inept, the Weird / Creepy, and Mister Right, I don’t know off the top of my head the split might be 50-24-24-2%, hey we all may be right. Point is it would be nice if there were a larger percentage of compatible people, any decent person can get along but a relationship has more to it. Whatever this issue is bigger than personality types, social expectations, desires, etc… we need a better social system, a different structure in society I find there’s just way to many quantitative hedonists’ in our culture. We are spoiled and the alarm bells have been ringing for decades.

It’s not like I’m in favor of a Socialist or Utopian or whatever society, that kind of change is too expensive to institute and only come about as a result of war, social unrest, whatever. We are fortunate to have the right to elect the people whom govern our country, but who really controls it, global corporations? Unfortunately we don’t elect the CEO’s and board of directors, furthermore, I don’t get the impression that these people are feelers or even care much about anything but money. Honest I would be hard pressed to think of a successful business owner who wasn’t at some point been a self serving shyster, one who thinks of people before the bottom line, yeah right. I guess I’m a Buddhist Economics dreamer, Economics As If People Mattered. Yeah I think that spells it out exactly why it would be nicer, advantageous, completely necessary to have more of us in the world and in places of power.

The Dali lama met with Obama this week -behind closed doors and furthermore the press coverage was well choreographed, the buzz was how is this going to affect US – China relations. There’s an entire country which is one big corporation, google how many power plants are slated for production in the next twenty years, what good is it if some countries do their part for the planet, Kyoto (laughs), and such a major player flips them the bird. Interesting to note the planet’s population caring capacity is estimated to be reached within five to ten years of the depletion of the worlds crude oil reserves, 2050ish. And we have shows like Jon and Kate plus eight and the other one with 19 kids or so, what are you rabbits how irresponsible is that, how vain and close-minded to the actual world we live in, every couple just needs a kid right. Yeah ever seen the movie Idiocracy?

“How can we sleep when our beds are burning?”
-Midnight Oil

 

[Saslou]

I found this funny ..

YouTube - Only Tesco Mobile Triples your credit - February 2010 TV Ad