[MBTI General] Dom-tert loops

[Fidelia]

Awhile ago, Udog started a thread about Fi-Si loops for INFPs, as this seems to be a common pitfall that many INFPs fall into. He was discussing what functions could possibly help pull out a person who gets stuck in this loop. (I believe his conclusion was Ne).

Z Buck's recent thread, as well as OrangeAppled's comment in it about this made me start considering whether every type has a dom-tert loop? If so, what would it look like?

I know that I have gotten "stuck" in a repeating loop a few times. It particularly occurs when I am trying to write papers that matter to me. I cannot ruthlessly cut out extraneous information and come up with a proper outline, even though I am fabulous at doing it with anyone else's work. This has caused me incredible amounts of time, stress and headache. I also have great difficulties summarizing the plot of a movie etc. Is this Ni-Ti? If so, what function would be the one that would help pull me out of that loop?

 

[Skyward]

I think a thread I made (Working the INFJ Function Yo-yo) would answer this question for Ni loops.

From the pattern I've seen in myself: Fe is your secondary function, so it catalyses the primary function's energy regeneration, making an energy building loop. Try talking about whatever project you have with someone. That would move the problem away from yourself and into a neutral zone (because someone else is discussing it) and will make it easier for Fe to zero in on it, pulling Ni along in a more focused way. Ni that is unfocused has little use, just like all the other types.

 

[Fidelia]

Do you think each type has a loop?

 

[Skyward]

Do you think each type has a loop?

I think so, but I wouldn't know. Ask SolitaryWalker for the long version.

I mean, it's pretty feasable. The loops are made when the primary function decides that using the tertiary function is the best way to make conclusions.

 

[Salomé]

Ti-Si loops are common commented on for INTPs.
There is some discussion here.

I think some cog func theory is a speculation too far.

 

[neptunesnet]

Fidelia, your loop would be Ni-Ti.

And yes, I do think every type has its loop.

I'd love to hear how they work in other types.

 

[cascadeco]

My loop tends to involve over-analysis of possibilities and not being able to figure out which one is 'right'. Spinning around in circles reassessing all of them, but not able to hone in well.

Or, I spiral down into negative thoughts/perceptions of the world and Life and find myself in a bit of an existential crisis. That sort of thing.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

My loop tends to involve over-analysis of possibilities and not being able to figure out which one is 'right'. Spinning around in circles reassessing all of them, but not able to hone in well.

Or, I spiral down into negative thoughts/perceptions of the world and Life and find myself in a bit of an existential crisis. That sort of thing.

So, would this then be because Fe hasn't been fed enough information to assess the 'right' path?

 

[cascadeco]

So, would this then be because Fe hasn't been fed enough information to assess the 'right' path?

Honestly, I don't know. I think things can get more convoluted if you try to tie cognitive functions to everything.

For myself all I know is I get too inward and formulate ideas, and stay inward because I think I'll eventually be able to figure it out by brainpower/analysis alone (when usually that's not the case) - I stop the process of checking externally or getting feedback on whether or not any of my conjectures actually reflect reality. (at least for the first paragraph. The second paragraph is entirely internal, though, more of a result of my being generally unhappy/dissatisfied with my life, and then analyzing it so much that I enter the black hole of negativity)

 

[BlueSprout]

My loop tends to involve over-analysis of possibilities and not being able to figure out which one is 'right'. Spinning around in circles reassessing all of them, but not able to hone in well.

Or, I spiral down into negative thoughts/perceptions of the world and find myself in a bit of an existential crisis. That sort of thing.

I relate to both of these a lot, actually. Especially when I'm not taking in new information/engaging external functions. If I'm left to mull over the same information, too many possibilities present themselves to distinguish a likely truth. Worse, there is no external feedback to either help critique (and thus narrow down) the possibilities I come up with or present new solutions from differing perspectives. At that point, I feel caged in by the same set of facts/parameters that, while static and confining, yield no clear or cogent conclusions/solutions. Obviously I'm not using Ni-Ti, though.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Awhile ago, Udog started a thread about Fi-Si loops for INFPs, as this seems to be a common pitfall that many INFPs fall into. He was discussing what functions could possibly help pull out a person who gets stuck in this loop. (I believe his conclusion was Ne).

Z Buck's recent thread, as well as OrangeAppled's comment in it about this made me start considering whether every type has a dom-tert loop? If so, what would it look like?

I know that I have gotten "stuck" in a repeating loop a few times. It particularly occurs when I am trying to write papers that matter to me. I cannot ruthlessly cut out extraneous information and come up with a proper outline, even though I am fabulous at doing it with anyone else's work. This has caused me incredible amounts of time, stress and headache. I also have great difficulties summarizing the plot of a movie etc. Is this Ni-Ti? If so, what function would be the one that would help pull me out of that loop?

Hi Fidelia, I don't think this sounds like an Ni/Ti loop, but, of course, I don't have much experience about it all yet. Whittling down information and efficiently explaining it in a logical fashion sounds sort-of Te to me. It sounds like maybe you just have a function you are needing to use (Te/Ti?) and it is weak for you, rather than a loop. ?

Lately I've been working on Ti and it's definitely lazy. I think I am especially weak in it because it's my husband's primary function. For example, learning anything takes me a very long time. I have to read and re-read stuff, which I perceive is my lazy Ti. Yet, my Te is pretty dang efficient because I manage and homeschool a large household, so I've always had to accumulate and organize data efficiently, because I have so little time! I'd imagine your Ti is pretty raucous because you are a musician. Maybe your Te is just needing to be used more than you are used to, and it feels rusty and appears inefficient?

 

[Fidelia]

I think it is indeed a Ni/Ti loop as Ni sees many possibilities. Ti wants to organize them internally but wants to be really sure that it has it all right before it nails it down. It tends to go with a structure that it has come up with inside and wants to make the information fit it rather than look for a structure from outside to impose on the information given (if I understand it correctly). Then more new possibilities come up and it becomes a huge task to resettle all of the information into new spots in that structure. This only happens though in select circumstances. One of my problems is when things are left too wide open. If there are specific boundaries (I assume kind of like someone else's Te being brought in), I can easily plug the information I have into where it ought to go. (Of course, I may be completely wrong, but...)

I'm just curious if all of the types though have the same sort of thing going on with them in various permutations.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Z Buck's recent thread, as well as OrangeAppled's comment in it about this made me start considering whether every type has a dom-tert loop? If so, what would it look like?

I personally think everyone can fall into their dom-tert loop. For an introvert, it's being closed off to their auxiliary extroverted function (not completely of course, but over-relying on the introverted functions). New info is not taken in for the Pe types to balance their tert-Pi, which is not as "mature" since it's tertiary. I am interested in how this works in the Je types.

For INFPs, this can mean losing sight of new possibilities and letting Si reinforce bad feelings from the past to the point of withdrawing & becoming cynical, which may appear as a "negative attitude" or "whiny". I've mentioned that for ISFPs, their Fi Ni loop may look like "paranoia", as they're not using Se to perceive reality.

For extroverts, the dom-tert loop would be lack of introspection and over-relying on their E functions.

Example: an ENFP would have a Ne Te loop, which may look like over-confidence of perceptions by using Te judgment to back it up (but it's often Te that is not mature, so the external facts get a bit distorted). For both ExFPs, this can read as "bossy" or "opinionated".

For an ExTP, the Ne-Fe or Se-Fe loop may seem to be a distortion of external morals to suit their Ne exploration of possibilities or the senses; basically, justifying bad behavior.

Those are just a few ideas....I'd rather hear it from the types themselves.

 

[Totenkindly]

Ti-Si loops are common commented on for INTPs.
There is some discussion here.

I think some cog func theory is a speculation too far.

Yeah, there -- Ti-Si is a natural defense mechanism against external stressors. Ne is a "breakout" function.
But like you say, broad theory might seem sensible but the details of the theory might be far too speculative.

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Hmm... Now I find myself mulling over the ISFJ loop, which includes the same functions in the opposing direction: Si-Ti.

Both loops focus on defending themselves from external forces that seek to overwhelm either the Ti understanding or Si perception of the world. Ti defends itself by supposedly leaping to Si, retreating into the world as it has been known and drawing its sense of the world from those familiar experiences. Si defends itself by dropping into rational Ti support for its perception... without widening the scope of its perception, so all the rationalizing might be thorough but is all self-justifying and within experience scope. This is similar in some ways, I suppose, except I think the two types still have different foundations depending on which function leads.

If INTPs supposedly break out of this by resorting to Ne (Intuition), then the theory would also say that ISFJ's would break out of this by Fe (values). Is this plausible or sensible? What would it look like? Does it mean one should not expect ISFJ to recalibrate Si via the consideration of possibilities and instead focus on the ISFJ's sense of appropriate relationships and interpersonal respect? If the theory is correct, it would mean the pathway toward enlightenment/wholeness would be very different for INTP vs ISFJ.

Or does the theory start to break down here?

 

[BlueSprout]

I relate to both of these a lot, actually. Especially when I'm not taking in new information/engaging external functions. If I'm left to mull over the same information, too many possibilities present themselves to distinguish a likely truth. Worse, there is no external feedback to either help critique (and thus narrow down) the possibilities I come up with or present new solutions from differing perspectives. At that point, I feel caged in by the same set of facts/parameters that, while static and confining, yield no clear or cogent conclusions/solutions. Obviously I'm not using Ni-Ti, though.

Okay, not to break the flow of the thread, but I'm a little curious about what this loop is for my type. Is it Fi-Si? Because my experience of the Fi-Si rut is usually more along the lines of OrangeAppled's description.

 

[purplesunset]

Damn you Orangeappled! Damn you to hell !!

You know before I read your post, I was rolling my eyes at this thread.

I was saying to myself, "Oh boy, not another silly arm-waving theory from another armchair psychologist online"


But I then I totally saw myself in this:

I personally think everyone can fall into their dom-tert loop. For an introvert, it's being closed off to their auxiliary extroverted function (not completely of course, but over-relying on the introverted functions). New info is not taken in for the Pe types to balance their tert-Pi, which is not as "mature" since it's tertiary. I am interested in how this works in the Je types.

For INFPs, this can mean losing sight of new possibilities and letting Si reinforce bad feelings from the past to the point of withdrawing & becoming cynical, which may appear as a "negative attitude" or "whiny". I've mentioned that for ISFPs, their Fi Ni loop may look like "paranoia", as they're not using Se to perceive reality.

I wonder though, how much of this actually is related to type-specific loops, and how much of it is just a more general issue that is common to human beings regardless of type. Perhaps you're just observing specific instances of the same neurosis which is common to us all.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I spiral down into negative thoughts/perceptions of the world and Life and find myself in a bit of an existential crisis.

Yeah, I tend to look at it as a sort of deconstructionist loop, because: I really can’t pinpoint specific functions, I just know they’re introverted. Good Times. GOOD TIMES.

For myself all I know is I get too inward and formulate ideas, and stay inward because I think I'll eventually be able to figure it out by brainpower/analysis alone (when usually that's not the case) - I stop the process of checking externally or getting feedback on whether or not any of my conjectures actually reflect reality.

It’s like this ^, I never really know when I should cut myself off.

I always feel like I’m building constructs in my head, that I should have ideas fully formed before trying to connect them to the external world; but there’s so much deconstructing going on in there as well that I often end up with something just as vague as when I began thinking about it. Basically it amounts to believing that I’m building something up in my head, but- since I do that by dismantling it- it’s never clear when Fe is supposed to jump in and try to share it. I end up feeling like I missed some critical juncture somewhere, where the Extraverted Judgment *might* have been able to do its job.

It particularly occurs when I am trying to write papers that matter to me. I cannot ruthlessly cut out extraneous information and come up with a proper outline, even though I am fabulous at doing it with anyone else's work. This has caused me incredible amounts of time, stress and headache.

I get it a lot while writing papers too. And actually, I've often had to leave the rough draft for long enough to forget all the extra stuff- the crazy dismantling going through my mind while writing it- in order to move forward with it.

 

[Poki]

Hi Fidelia, I don't think this sounds like an Ni/Ti loop, but, of course, I don't have much experience about it all yet. Whittling down information and efficiently explaining it in a logical fashion sounds sort-of Te to me. It sounds like maybe you just have a function you are needing to use (Te/Ti?) and it is weak for you, rather than a loop. ?

Lately I've been working on Ti and it's definitely lazy. I think I am especially weak in it because it's my husband's primary function. For example, learning anything takes me a very long time. I have to read and re-read stuff, which I perceive is my lazy Ti. Yet, my Te is pretty dang efficient because I manage and homeschool a large household, so I've always had to accumulate and organize data efficiently, because I have so little time! I'd imagine your Ti is pretty raucous because you are a musician. Maybe your Te is just needing to be used more than you are used to, and it feels rusty and appears inefficient?

I can tell you explaining things is extremely hard for me. Especially in person. I jump around way to much and miss so many key points that I have to keep going back and forth. The 2 things I tend to be able to do is to verbally walk you through something as long as you can be my eyes and relay what you see, then I will relay back what it is I try to look for and pick up. Like key words and such, it would be more like a thesaurus where I search for alot of words, not one exact thing. The other is just do it myself, dont bother watching me as I go really fast as I am doing the exact same thing I do when I walk you through it, but my eyes and my brain are in sync and doesnt have the relaying of info back and forth. If your patient I can walk you through what I do, but do not ask me how I know what to look for as its extremely subjective.

 

[Jeffster]

Do you think each type has a loop?

Well, I've had fruit loops before.

 

[BallentineChen]

I personally think everyone can fall into their dom-tert loop. For an introvert, it's being closed off to their auxiliary extroverted function (not completely of course, but over-relying on the introverted functions)

I agree. I think it's helpful to think of it outside the context of specific functions but rather as a matter balance. The same "dom-tert" loop can apply to extroverts that continually look to the objective (environment) for their answers. The point is that there's supposed to be a dialogue between the subjective (self) and the objective. I think focusing in on the local mechanics of dom-tert is reductive in a way that ignores the broader issue of balance and integration.

In my personal experience, when I've failed to get feedback from the world my wild interpretations and justifications are allowed to grow, until I hear myself explaining my ideas to someone and realize how silly they are. An organism is supposed to be able to respond to the environment, it must receive information and then act accordingly. If an organism acts without environmental input (dominant introversion-tertiary introversion) it may encounter reality that it is unprepared for.