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[MBTI General] Dom-tert loops

sculpting

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I cannot ruthlessly cut out extraneous information and come up with a proper outline, even though I am fabulous at doing it with anyone else's work. This has caused me incredible amounts of time, stress and headache. I also have great difficulties summarizing the plot of a movie etc. Is this Ni-Ti? If so, what function would be the one that would help pull me out of that loop?

I have seen NeTi folks do this, but more vocally. They cant talk through an idea without sharing every single tiny Ti detail. I have coached several of them to add a summary sentence every five sentences, or they will loose the Te users who fund their projects. But feeding into Ni? I dunno how that works..

Really stressed INFJs either become kinda mean or they can be rather odd and persnickity.

Aphrodite, I didnt quote but could you be using Fe to manage the household? I am going to comment on the ISFJs in a sec, but they use Fe like Te to run organizations.

Hmm... Now I find myself mulling over the ISFJ loop, which includes the same functions in the opposing direction: Si-Ti.

Both loops focus on defending themselves from external forces that seek to overwhelm either the Ti understanding or Si perception of the world. Ti defends itself by supposedly leaping to Si, retreating into the world as it has been known and drawing its sense of the world from those familiar experiences. Si defends itself by dropping into rational Ti support for its perception... without widening the scope of its perception, so all the rationalizing might be thorough but is all self-justifying and within experience scope. This is similar in some ways, I suppose, except I think the two types still have different foundations depending on which function leads.

If INTPs supposedly break out of this by resorting to Ne (Intuition), then the theory would also say that ISFJ's would break out of this by Fe (values). Is this plausible or sensible? What would it look like? Does it mean one should not expect ISFJ to recalibrate Si via the consideration of possibilities and instead focus on the ISFJ's sense of appropriate relationships and interpersonal respect? If the theory is correct, it would mean the pathway toward enlightenment/wholeness would be very different for INTP vs ISFJ.

Or does the theory start to break down here?

YES YES YES!!!

Jen, I have been watching two male ISFJs lately. They are horrific. This seems odd to me as I have multliple INFJs who are actually quite good. The Ni-Si diff is striking here.

Both of these men will use Fe to "feel" like Te and control others. It works very well on Fe users, even EXTPs. People get a sense or caring and logical competence from them. They can organize effectively to a localized extent. On the surface they are very impressive and poised. They are horrifically nonlogical.

One seems to live in his own little universe. You bring him new information about how things are doomed to fail, and he just says, well we need to work harder as a team and I am sure these things will work out and smiles. Any mention of problems is considered negative. He actively avoids people who disrupt harmony-ie mention reality. This guy is at a breaking point though, so this Si-Ti linkage is very pronounced.


What is extraordinarily scary about both of these guys is what they say-it changes everytime you talk to them, depending on who you are. And they dont seem to recognize it changed. So they say different things to different people, and everyone trusts them, until the entire system implodes upon itself.

Well, I've had fruit loops before.
:hug: you'd have an Fi-Ni loop right?
 

Seymour

Vaguely Precise
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For INFPs, this can mean losing sight of new possibilities and letting Si reinforce bad feelings from the past to the point of withdrawing & becoming cynical, which may appear as a "negative attitude" or "whiny". I've mentioned that for ISFPs, their Fi Ni loop may look like "paranoia", as they're not using Se to perceive reality.

I have a good ISFP friend who is like this. Usually he has a pretty optimistic view of people, but I definitely see paranoia crop up from time to time. It's always a surprise since he seems more accurately aware of his environment than I am, then suddenly a theory will come out of left field that seems totally off-base and paranoid to me.

He also tends to have theories that to me just seem like putting too much emphasis on events that could be explained by coincidence. I could see that as being the result of tertiary Ni, too.

Still, he a good friend and has helped me with getting out of my head and enjoying the moment a bit more. Just odd to see those pockets of paranoia crop up.
 

OrangeAppled

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Damn you Orangeappled! Damn you to hell !!

You know before I read your post, I was rolling my eyes at this thread.

I was saying to myself, "Oh boy, not another silly arm-waving theory from another armchair psychologist online"

Who says I am not? :D
Exploring silly ideas is my "small talk".

But I then I totally saw myself in this::blush:

I wonder though, how much of this actually is related to type-specific loops, and how much of it is just a more general issue that is common to human beings regardless of type. Perhaps you're just observing specific instances of the same neurosis which is common to us all.

That's true....as brought out below, I think the main idea behind it is when introverts ignore the external and extroverts ignore their internal self. The idea of the tertiary coming into play is that it serves as a crutch in place of the auxiliary. The introvert can stay safely hidden away in their cozy cave, and the extrovert never has to venture into that dark & scary cave.


I agree. I think it's helpful to think of it outside the context of specific functions but rather as a matter balance. The same "dom-tert" loop can apply to extroverts that continually look to the objective (environment) for their answers. The point is that there's supposed to be a dialogue between the subjective (self) and the objective. I think focusing in on the local mechanics of dom-tert is reductive in a way that ignores the broader issue of balance and integration.

In my personal experience, when I've failed to get feedback from the world my wild interpretations and justifications are allowed to grow, until I hear myself explaining my ideas to someone and realize how silly they are. An organism is supposed to be able to respond to the environment, it must receive information and then act accordingly. If an organism acts without environmental input (dominant introversion-tertiary introversion) it may encounter reality that it is unprepared for.

That's pretty much what is behind the idea. "Dom-tert" loop is just a casual way of referring to behavioral patterns in types who seem out of touch with their auxiliary function, so they're either too removed from external input or too removed from internal contemplation (depending on whether they are E or I). "Balance" is obviously the key to not falling into that rut.
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
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My loop tends to involve over-analysis of possibilities and not being able to figure out which one is 'right'. Spinning around in circles reassessing all of them, but not able to hone in well.

Or, I spiral down into negative thoughts/perceptions of the world and Life and find myself in a bit of an existential crisis. That sort of thing.

This is me too.
 

the state i am in

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From the pattern I've seen in myself: Fe is your secondary function, so it catalyses the primary function's energy regeneration, making an energy building loop. Try talking about whatever project you have with someone. That would move the problem away from yourself and into a neutral zone (because someone else is discussing it) and will make it easier for Fe to zero in on it, pulling Ni along in a more focused way. Ni that is unfocused has little use, just like all the other types.

exactly, it allows you to sketch it out. focus is a byproduct of creating a better perceptual blend/brew, but doing this requires some empirical information to build upon and open up the possibility for real feedback that is not pure presumption/assumption.

the energy thing is so important too. i constantly look to share enthusiasm with others. certain things immediately get me to 100%. but in other things, i need a good vibe to get me going. this is one thing i love about enps more than other types. it just catalyzes my energies, get back with interest, etc.

For myself all I know is I get too inward and formulate ideas, and stay inward because I think I'll eventually be able to figure it out by brainpower/analysis alone (when usually that's not the case) - I stop the process of checking externally or getting feedback on whether or not any of my conjectures actually reflect reality. (at least for the first paragraph. The second paragraph is entirely internal, though, more of a result of my being generally unhappy/dissatisfied with my life, and then analyzing it so much that I enter the black hole of negativity)

the responsibility of envisioning the truth from the beginning of time to the end of time is too much. there are too many changes and fluctuations to recognize the one big pattern that connects everything and that is everything. our patterns that we use are different than Ne patterns for intps, they allow themselves to go find them in the moment, we intend to supply them from the past, bring immense context to our logical foundations. but our logical skills are so secondary that which contextualizations to choose becomes awful, and what actually cues these suites of understanding up is more often related to our motives and emotional ambiances which can fly under the radar.

what i mean is that Ti should be the final finishing touch and not the foundation. and our foundation is fluid and fluxy, so by taking out the world as the constant, by ignoring the moment via Fe, we are capable of some serious crazy.

I always feel like I’m building constructs in my head, that I should have ideas fully formed before trying to connect them to the external world; but there’s so much deconstructing going on in there as well that I often end up with something just as vague as when I began thinking about it. Basically it amounts to believing that I’m building something up in my head, but- since I do that by dismantling it- it’s never clear when Fe is supposed to jump in and try to share it. I end up feeling like a missed some critical juncture somewhere, where the Extraverted Judgment *might* have been able to do its job.

I get it a lot while writing papers too. And actually, I've often had to leave the rough draft for long enough to forget all the extra stuff- the crazy dismantling going through my mind while writing it- in order to move forward with it.

the vagueness i agree with again so much. i find that when i imagine other people reading my paper and imagine their critiques, i immediately know the questions they would ask. and then i can integrate them into the paper. finding the questions is always the key to me being specific, direct, precise, clear, explicit, etc.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
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My loop tends to involve over-analysis of possibilities and not being able to figure out which one is 'right'. Spinning around in circles reassessing all of them, but not able to hone in well.

Or, I spiral down into negative thoughts/perceptions of the world and Life and find myself in a bit of an existential crisis. That sort of thing.
This is me too.
Me three. Hey, we could make our own Dom-tert loop. :hug::yes:
 

Z Buck McFate

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i find that when i imagine other people reading my paper and imagine their critiques, i immediately know the questions they would ask. and then i can integrate them into the paper. finding the questions is always the key to me being specific, direct, precise, clear, explicit, etc.

Exactly. I see all the possible faults and flaws in logic, and- even when I know they’re miniscule- I find myself constantly getting trapped into making each thought impermeable to criticism. It’s helpful in forming a solid argument, but it’s counterproductive when I get so trapped in the fragments that the whole never makes it out of my head (the loop).

It particularly occurs when I am trying to write papers that matter to me. I cannot ruthlessly cut out extraneous information and come up with a proper outline, even though I am fabulous at doing it with anyone else's work. This has caused me incredible amounts of time, stress and headache.
I get it a lot while writing papers too. And actually, I've often had to leave the rough draft for long enough to forget all the extra stuff- the crazy dismantling going through my mind while writing it- in order to move forward with it.

I bolded a part in what I quoted from fidelia earlier, then forgot to address it. My point was going to be: maybe that’s why it’s easier to work on someone else’s paper. Each sentence isn’t loaded- with your own possible modifications to the content- and it’s easier to focus on arranging immediate content when you're not distracted by all the possible modifications. I know, at least, that’s the reason I’ve got to walk away from stuff I’m writing sometimes and wait till all those *possible* modifications have cleared from my mind.
 
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Fidelia

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I know my problem is very well described by Z Buck's first paragraph! Actually all of her post describes thing very well.
 

cascadeco

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I always feel like I’m building constructs in my head, that I should have ideas fully formed before trying to connect them to the external world; but there’s so much deconstructing going on in there as well that I often end up with something just as vague as when I began thinking about it.

I *totally* relate to feeling like I should have things all figured out before connecting them to the external world. Part of it might be not wanting to be caught off guard, part of it might be my wanting to have some sort of crystal-clear construct (I'm stealing your word :)) in my head that is the ultimate solution, that cannot be breached or is flawless. Correct. Right. The truth. I think/want to figure things out without any external input, because I think I'll be able to find the ultimate answer by Thought alone

Also: I don't know what it is, exactly, but when I'm in that mode I also resist the notion of external feedback, and it becomes distasteful, because I somehow don't want them to influence my thoughts... :huh: .. I'm having a hard time articulating this. Maybe too it's tied to the fact that I don't have a solid set of beliefs/foundation, so while I'm in this mode I'm trying to construct something solid...of my own making...of my own independent thought...getting external feedback 'prematurely' would influence my Pure Thought, which is distasteful to me (because I DO easily shift perspective and sometimes I fear that trait and being 'swayed'), I want it to be discovered by me alone :laugh:...lol, this seems so silly as I'm typing this, but what can I say, I think this is what I think when I'm in totally introverted mode.

the state i am in said:
but our logical skills are so secondary that which contextualizations to choose becomes awful, and what actually cues these suites of understanding up is more often related to our motives and emotional ambiances which can fly under the radar.

what i mean is that Ti should be the final finishing touch and not the foundation. and our foundation is fluid and fluxy, so by taking out the world as the constant, by ignoring the moment via Fe, we are capable of some serious crazy.

lol. Yeah, this goes with what I was just typing above; when I'm not in that mode, it seems laughable that I get into that state where I actually don't want to go external; it doesn't even make much sense to not keep getting external 'data' in the moment to work with or help us to hone in more clearly. And you're right, our pure thought can lead us to some serious crazy.... this occurred recently for me.... I was told my observations/ 'data' was good, justified, accurate, etc, but my perception/conclusion about all of it wasn't. ( To be fair: I got out of my internal loop because I knew I was getting nowhere and knew I needed to go external - my act of externalizing just illustrated (via feedback) my knowledge already that I was full of conjectures but nothing solid)

Z Buck McFate said:
Exactly. I see all the possible faults and flaws in logic, and- even when I know they’re miniscule- I find myself constantly getting trapped into making each thought impermeable to criticism. It’s helpful in forming a solid argument, but it’s counterproductive when I get so trapped in the fragments that the whole never makes it out of my head (the loop).

Relate too to being impermeable to criticism. Trying to find all the loopholes, all the possible things others might say or others might counter with.
 
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