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[NF] Not being NF is not enough of an excuse

OrangeAppled

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Think of the tough love as a sign that I really care about you because I wouldn't bother doing it to someone who didn't mean something to me. If I didn't like you, I'd just ignore you. :D

I don't believe in "tough love". I think it's focused on yourself and not really on what the other person needs. I can't see how a stab in the gut ever helps anyone.....I mean, just look at what the metaphor is implying!!! I'm not saying to coddle people, but I feel like people use this sort of thinking as an excuse to be harsh.
 

Thalassa

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I don't believe in "tough love". I think it's focused on yourself and not really on what the other person needs. I can't see how a stab in the gut ever helps anyone.....I mean, just look at what the metaphor is implying!!! I'm not saying to coddle people, but I feel like people use this sort of thinking as an excuse to be harsh.

Harshness can and does help certain people. A stab in the gut can motivate me to see the big picture at times. This method ("tough love") has also been proven repeatedly to be effective with dealing with juvenile delinquents.
 

Sinmara

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I don't believe in "tough love". I think it's focused on yourself and not really on what the other person needs. I can't see how a stab in the gut ever helps anyone.....I mean, just look at what the metaphor is implying!!! I'm not saying to coddle people, but I feel like people use this sort of thinking as an excuse to be harsh.

Nah, it's not about me. I wouldn't do it if I didn't think it would be effective. Like I said, I'm not out to hurt people. You, for instance, I wouldn't do it to, because it obviously wouldn't work. Someone like marmalade, though, she gets shanked. :D
 

Moiety

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I don't believe in "tough love". I think it's focused on yourself and not really on what the other person needs. I can't see how a stab in the gut ever helps anyone.....I mean, just look at what the metaphor is implying!!! I'm not saying to coddle people, but I feel like people use this sort of thinking as an excuse to be harsh.

I dunno about Pettycure's definition of tough love, but as I define it there is definitely a place for it in this world of ours.

Tough love can also be about self-sacrifice actually. Being okay with people hating you, if you believe they will profit in the end.
 

Thalassa

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Nah, it's not about me. I wouldn't do it if I didn't think it would be effective. Like I said, I'm not out to hurt people. You, for instance, I wouldn't do it to, because it obviously wouldn't work. Someone like marmalade, though, she gets shanked. :D

Make sure that pimp hand is strong!
 

BlueScreen

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I just don't get how oblivious a lot of people seem to be to the feelings of others. How can you say/do certain types of things and not understand, or suspect, that you're hurting the other person? I know NFs are supposed to be hyper-sensitive to this kind of thing and we're supposed to have a natural advantage...but I don't know that this is even all that type-related. If you have that big of a blind spot to other people's feelings or the types of things that are likely to hurt, you've got a problem - most likely that you just don't care that much about anyone's feelings except your own. Apparently even saying "sorry if that came across as insensitive" is too damn hard for so many people.

Hm, I'm not having a good week... :huh:

Sorry to hear. Hope your week improves. :hug:

Can I ask what happened?
 

kyuuei

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I can definitely relate to the OP. There are many times people just leave me with my mouth gaping.. "You MUST be fucking joking. You ARE joking, aren't you?" It's even worse when they KNOW what they're doing, but won't admit to it, either to themselves or others, and squeeze those traits in where it's not socially acceptable, but hard to call them out on it anyways. There are some people who just genuinely are out for number 1, and they'll be damned if they can't slam a door in an old lady's face.

What Petty's describing is, I think, how most people act socially. Civil, polite, but not over the top toward anyone outside of the people currently involved in their lives. She's not saying she's a caveman in restaurants, or that she openly tells some stranger in Walmart that their outfit is the ugliest sin since Medusa's curse, but simply that she's neutral on the general population. She doesn't care one way or the other. I think a lot of people can relate to that.
 

sculpting

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This will probably sound callous to you, but I'm not interested in the feelings of strangers or acquaintances. I say what I'm going to say and just because it upsets you doesn't mean that you didn't need to hear it. The only feelings I'm interested in are that of the people in my inner circle because they've proven that they're worth the stress it puts on me. I don't see why I should put forth the effort of trying to care about absolutely everybody because dealing with the feelings of other people can be incredibly draining for me and can leave me feeling empty if I've given too much. And yes, this extends even to what you might consider common courtesy. If I had to stop and analyze my actions and look at it from the perspective of every single person I encounter on a given day, I'd be exhausted.

Speaking solely for xSTPs, we can be a bit emotionally retarded at times -- yes, it is a type thing for us. The best way to deal with us is to point out what we've done and why it affected you badly in a blunt and rational way. If you fire back with an emotional response, we're likely to slap the "drama queen" label on you and not think of what you say. If we don't know we're being too crass or harsh, we won't know that we need to apologize.
.


Pettycure, thanks for these comments. They shed a lot of insight on how ESTPs see things and I much appreciate you taking the time to write them down. Yup we are way sensitive. Yup you guys can be way blunt, however I prefer that over the shiny, polite front honestly.

For those very close-who you do tolerate emo from-do you think you tap into Fi at all to do that?

Do you ever end up letting highly emotive people that close, given the stress they impose from the very start of a relationship?

I can be very Te at times, and thus befriend ESTPs, but they cant handle the Fi core that sneaks out now and then-ie an emo breakdown. I feel bad as I do care for them, and then I see them withdraw and not want to be close anymore, but I cant blame them for that if it is draining as you say.

Pussy.
Whiner.

Oh wait, this isn't the word association thread?

Alas. My unicorn vomited rainbows for you.
 

jenocyde

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I treat people the way I would like to be treated, so it shocks me if someone says I'm rude. People value different things and it's hard to imagine what any one person will take the wrong way based on their own value system. I'm (almost) never intentionally rude.

I identify with Pettycure - it's just draining to always qualify statements. When my brother died, I got yelled at for telling a child that he was dead, because that was too honest (read: harsh). Then I got yelled at for telling another child that he was in heaven, because that mom didn't want her kid lied to.

Can't please 'em all, so like I said, I treat people the way I would want (which is usually extremely honest and to the point) and if you don't like it, oh well. What more can I do? I can't very well pepper statements with extraneous buffer words all the time (i.e. lie) to please someone if I value honesty above all else.
 

Sinmara

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Do you ever end up letting highly emotive people that close, given the stress they impose from the very start of a relationship?

I'm sorry to say that I've had to cut it off with a few people who used to be friends because their emotional baggage became too much for me to handle. Highly emotive is fine as long as it's coming from a healthy, balanced person. But if the person starts to fixate on the negative and do nothing but whine, and whine, and whine, and constantly ask me for my advice and talk to me about it but then never take my advice to heart because all they want to do is complain about how miserable they are, I can only take it for so long before I have to cut the connection and walk away. I held out for as long as I could and I tried to make them see their own behavior but I can't stand in quicksand and keep telling myself that I'll hit bottom eventually.
 

Ivy

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A thread could just as easily be started in the NT section titled "Not being NT is not enough excuse" in which NTs lament that not everyone values logic and straightforward bluntness as much as NTs do. Your values are not universal.
 

Mad Hatter

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Being (or not being) a certain type isn't an excuse for anything. Only a bit of an explanation.

Captain Obvious strikes yet again.
 

INTP

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is not being t is enough of a reason for not to understand things from totally objective and complex logical point of view?
 

nolla

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Interesting thread. I never thought that the differences between people could be this big. I mean, everyone has empathy, right? And I used to think that when it is not used it means that the person is defending himself, not being open. But this talk about hurting people for their own good. It doesn't fit my idea of empathy. If you hurt them for their own good you would have to do it with empathy, because otherwise you are not doing it for their good, but to defend yourself. And the old saying before the whipping started, this is for your own good, this will hurt me more than you. I am sure it has been used as much with the meaning "the society doesn't allow your actions, so you need to not be you", that is, without empathy. The stern father is afraid of being humiliated by his peers because of his son's eccentric behavior, or something like that.

Does that make any sense? This thread leaves me puzzled...
 

Andy

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I just don't get how oblivious a lot of people seem to be to the feelings of others. How can you say/do certain types of things and not understand, or suspect, that you're hurting the other person? I know NFs are supposed to be hyper-sensitive to this kind of thing and we're supposed to have a natural advantage...but I don't know that this is even all that type-related. If you have that big of a blind spot to other people's feelings or the types of things that are likely to hurt, you've got a problem - most likely that you just don't care that much about anyone's feelings except your own. Apparently even saying "sorry if that came across as insensitive" is too damn hard for so many people.

Hm, I'm not having a good week... :huh:

I generally just rely on being polite for the most part. I don't see any point in needlessly upsetting people. It creates pointless, irritating conflict and pain. I wouldn't claim to be very in tune with peoples emotions. When I manage to cause offense it is usually throughg abscence of words/expressiveness rather than there prescence.
 

SilkRoad

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Sorry to hear. Hope your week improves. :hug:

Can I ask what happened?

To be honest, a more accurate title for this thread might have been "I'm an NF, and I'm too sensitive." It wasn't really anything too specific this week. It was a bad week to start with because a friend went through a crisis (ex-boyfriend who she was still totally in love with, killed in a motorcycle crash) and I was stressed and upset on her behalf. Work is a stress at the moment, I am temping and having a hard time finding a permanent job, and I'm temping in two different departments where there is a bit of a conflict with the hours they want me to do and I feel like they're not being very understanding. Actually, scratch that. They're being reasonably understanding but because I'm stressed generally I am being paranoid and feeling that they're all pissed off at me even though it's probably not the case.

As far as the OP, I was a bit shocked at a couple of anecdotes that friends told me about people being totally insensitive in their direction. Because this is Over-Sensitivity Week for SilkRoad, that seems to have affected me too. And finally, I am still dwelling on an issue which arose several weeks ago now and actually is on the topic of the OP. I made a mistake which caused an awkward situation, hassle and embarrassment for an ESxP (think he's ESTP but not sure) friend and although it was a situation where he was partly at fault too, his response when I decided to be honest and let him know what the deal was, was harsh and hurtful. (It was by email, which may have made things worse because I am not sure how he meant to come across. He was away at the time and I wanted to apprise him of the situation before he returned and had to face it. He is away again for a long time so any more discussion of this might have to be by email again.) I had done all I could to acknowledge my own error in the matter, apologised, acknowledged that he might feel betrayed but I hoped he could see the bigger picture...etc. His whole response just made me feel worse and there was no evidence of acceptance of responsibility on his part. When I saw him again, he said "let's forget about it" but also seemed to find it necessary to re-emphasize that he was still annoyed about it. He did say "I apologise" (in a very grudging tone) when I said that I had been upset by his reaction, but then added "I don't see what there was in my reaction to upset you." He obviously didn't want to talk about it further, though.

THe things said by the ESTPs in this thread have been interesting. I guess maybe this person didn't realise how he was coming across, but is this a normal way for an ESTP to react when they're mad? Little or no acceptance of responsibility, even when I have made the effort to acknowledge my own part in the issue and apologise even a bit more than necessary, and harsh words? This doesn't fall into the category of being insensitive to someone you don't really know or care about, because you don't have the energy for it. I think he may have been ashamed of his part in this matter and because of that tried to shift the blame/lash out. I have been reading up about the Enneagram lately and he certainly strikes me as a type 7 and I think that would fit.

I feel like I should talk to him about it again even just for my own peace of mind, and explain why I was hurt, because he might not realise. But I feel like that might just give him another chance to hurt me again. I don't trust him any more not to do that.

It was just a lousy week for me and when I feel lousy about one thing, everything else seems to come home to roost too. I'm tired of being like this, I really do try to bring logic to bear on my life and emotions but it is so damn hard. I'd like to point out too that I am not an emotionally high maintenance person. I keep my emotions to myself too much for that. If anything, most people think I'm excessively easy-going.

EDIT: Oh, and it does surprise me sometimes how insensitive people can be on this forum, but I can't say it bothers me a lot. I haven't been much of a target, anyway.
 

Amargith

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It's people being emotionally lazy imo. I have those moments too. I'm ok with people not doing the emotionally proper thing, as long as they don't get on my case about being 'logically' lazy, coz I feel that drains me if done constantly. Hypocrisy, meh. Let people just be who they are and realize we all have got our preferences and weaknesses. The thing that pisses me off is when someone gets rude about you not obliging to *their* logical standard when explaining shit. And then when you call them on it, they're like..oh my god, don't be such a baby. That's just..yeah. Take a look in the mirror.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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A thread could just as easily be started in the NT section titled "Not being NT is not enough excuse" in which NTs lament that not everyone values logic and straightforward bluntness as much as NTs do. Your values are not universal.
That's true especially when the complaint regards valuing/using an approach to the same degree as a given type. OTOH, not being an NT is not an excuse to dismiss logic, reason, and straightforwardness in a universal way. Not being "NT" could explain why logic is more difficult for some, but it does not justify a complete disregard for it which produces destructive outcomes outside the individual. The implied problem from either perspective is mostly a matter of extremes and dismissal. More often than not people are not implying a complete dismissal, but it is a matter of degree.

The benefits of reason and empathy have universal implications, or at least effects that extend beyond the individual applying a given approach.
 

Moiety

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That's true, but not being an NT is not an excuse to dismiss logic, reason, and straightforwardness in a universal way. Not being "NT" could explain why logic is more difficult for some, but it does not justify a complete disregard for it which produces destructive outcomes outside the individual. The implied problem from either perspective is mostly a matter of extremes and dismissal.

The benefits of reason and empathy have universal implications, or at least effects that extend beyond the individual applying a given approach.

I approve of this post and its implications.
 
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