[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

[Thalassa]

Being an asshole works when the other person knows that thats not how you really are. Now if you joke in a way you are then it can get extremely confusing. So if you really are an asshole, you are gonna have a hard time playing an asshole as a joke. Your better off playing sweet, because you will then really throw people off.

Not necessarily. People are complex. Someone who is sometimes sweet and sometimes an asshole can have a very funny assholish sense of humor, especially if they're just plain silly at other times. There's nothing confusing about it if you know the person.

 

[Laurie]

Fight...Argue...Fight...Argue...Sucker Punch...Jokes...Derail...Jokes....Fight....Tension....Argue....Jokes

edit: oh were you wondering about the ENFP-INTJ thing? I got hung up on the NFP-ENTP thing.

Haha, I know what I think about ENFP/INTJ, I wanted cliff notes on the drama thread, so that was perfect!

 

[Kalach]

The other can play any way they like, but, shouldn't expect me to therefore, play by their rules, or they cry about it, when I don't. My mode of playing is, if they're trying to make the joke on me, I'm going to turn it, to be a joke on them.

Fair enough.

But depending a bit on the INTJ, the deadpan nonsense-speak isn't a joke on the other person. I for example do it to blow off steam or to illustrate something. At its core is some unstated reductio argument that, if stated directly, would strip away all the outlandish stuff and leave behind some elementary truth. The elementary truth is probably a little dry and perhaps abstract, and probably really isn't all that interesting if one doesn't flesh out the reductio case so thoroughly.

I think that's the way it works. After all, mere fanciful bullshitting isn't all that entertaining.

 

[SillySapienne]

What I find interesting...

As some of you may or may not know, I'm currently in a relationship with a confirmed INTJ, and, yes, I am a confirmed ENFP, for all y'all who don't know.

And, well, the interesting thing is this...

He does a whole lot more of the talking than I do!



Yeah, I would say he talks 70% or 65% more than I do, probably closer to 70%, though.

He might be weak on his I/E divide, in fact, I know he is.

But, I find this perplexing.

He is a very good listener, not the best, though.

However, I find that I do a lot more of the listening in this relationship, is this common?

With the INTJ/ENFP dynamic, that is?

Usually, I am the listener in most, if not all, of my intimate relationships, (both romantic and platonic).

However, I've known other INTJs in the past, and they were some of the only people in my life who I felt comfortable enough to truly open up to and talk about myself to.

Such is not necessarily the case in my current relationship, not so much about my feeling uncomfortable as much as I feel that he tends to lose interest in what I have to say, so I just give the proverbial mic back to him.

Thoughts?

 

[uumlau]

What I find interesting...

As some of you may or may not know, I'm currently in a relationship with a confirmed INTJ, and, yes, I am a confirmed ENFP, for all y'all who don't know.

And, well, the interesting thing is this...

He does a whole lot more of the talking than I do!



Yeah, I would say he talks 70% or 65% more than I do, probably closer to 70%, though.

He might be weak on his I/E divide, in fact, I know he is.

But, I find this perplexing.

He is a very good listener, not the best, though.

However, I find that I do a lot more of the listening in this relationship, is this common?

With the INTJ/ENFP dynamic, that is?

Usually, I am the listener in most, if not all, of my intimate relationships, (both romantic and platonic).

However, I've known other INTJs in the past, and they were some of the only people in my life who I felt comfortable enough to truly open up to and talk about myself to.

Such is not necessarily the case in my current relationship, not so much about my feeling uncomfortable as much as I feel that he tends to lose interest in what I have to say, so I just give the proverbial mic back to him.

Thoughts?

I think you're letting him talk more, because you want the interaction more than you want to have the floor.

And yeah, he probably loses interest in the specific things you have to say, but he's not losing interest in you. It's how Ni works.

Here, let me explain ...

From my own experience, there are times when I want to listen to someone I like, but I'm really not focusing on what they're saying. I'm more kind of hearing the music of their voice, feeling the affection directed toward me, basking in the attention. Like having a cat purring in your lap, except she's talking happily instead of purring.

Also, I should say that it isn't that I'm paying no attention, but it's how Ni works. For an INxJ, after you say 3 words, I know the next 30 you're going to say more or less, and I'm not listening to what you say, but rather listening for whether you say anything I don't expect. Most people's speech is full of "um's" and "ah's" and pauses, and thought gatherings, and my Ni is just filtering all that out, running a parallel process, listening for patterns, predicting patterns. When you say something I don't expect, then you have my full attention again, and I have pull in Se and be present in the moment rather than living in my head.

So what I see going on is that you're feeling his Ni kick in, and it feels like you're being ignored. (Ni has kind of an autistic feel to it, to non-Ni people.) You can tell by our body language that we aren't focused in on you in an Se way, and it feels alienating. You might want to address this with him if you really want more specific attention, but for the most part, you're going to have to accept it as an "Ni thing." Trust me, he's still right there. You're in his space, talking to him, and he's not pushing you away. That's the INTJ way of expressing a deep and abiding affection.

 

[SillySapienne]

I think you're letting him talk more, because you want the interaction more than you want to have the floor.

And yeah, he probably loses interest in the specific things you have to say, but he's not losing interest in you. It's how Ni works.

Here, let me explain ...

From my own experience, there are times when I want to listen to someone I like, but I'm really not focusing on what they're saying. I'm more kind of hearing the music of their voice, feeling the affection directed toward me, basking in the attention. Like having a cat purring in your lap, except she's talking happily instead of purring.

Also, I should say that it isn't that I'm paying no attention, but it's how Ni works. For an INxJ, after you say 3 words, I know the next 30 you're going to say more or less, and I'm not listening to what you say, but rather listening for whether you say anything I don't expect. Most people's speech is full of "um's" and "ah's" and pauses, and thought gatherings, and my Ni is just filtering all that out, running a parallel process, listening for patterns, predicting patterns. When you say something I don't expect, then you have my full attention again, and I have pull in Se and be present in the moment rather than living in my head.

So what I see going on is that you're feeling his Ni kick in, and it feels like you're being ignored. (Ni has kind of an autistic feel to it, to non-Ni people.) You can tell by our body language that we aren't focused in on you in an Se way, and it feels alienating. You might want to address this with him if you really want more specific attention, but for the most part, you're going to have to accept it as an "Ni thing." Trust me, he's still right there. You're in his space, talking to him, and he's not pushing you away. That's the INTJ way of expressing a deep and abiding affection.

Fascinating and insightful stuff here, thank you.

I already commented on his lack of eye-contact, what I call his eye-contact issues, and I mentioned how it seems slightly autistic, too!!!

What is it with you INTJs and eye-contact, so weird!!!

 

[uumlau]

Fascinating and insightful stuff here, thank you.

I already commented on his lack of eye-contact, what I call his eye-contact issues, and I mentioned how it seems slightly autistic, too!!!

What is it with you INTJs and eye-contact, so weird!!!

I suspect the problem is that eye-contact triggers Se, and turns off Ni. Se works great with Fi, so if you just want to let loose those "googly eyes," as Happy Puppy calls them, I suspect most INTJs are good with that. But if you want us to listen to your words, and your words are not Fi affection words, but whatever abstract concept or feeling you want to talk about, we actually listen better with Ni(/Te) than with Se.

It just doesn't "feel like" listening, to you.

Oh, and don't ask us to repeat what you said, that's Si, not Ni. Rather, we'll summarize what you said in about 2 very terse sentences.

 

[Qre:us]

It's in his eyes..woah woah...

Fair enough.

But depending a bit on the INTJ, the deadpan nonsense-speak isn't a joke on the other person. I for example do it to blow off steam or to illustrate something. At its core is some unstated reductio argument that, if stated directly, would strip away all the outlandish stuff and leave behind some elementary truth. The elementary truth is probably a little dry and perhaps abstract, and probably really isn't all that interesting if one doesn't flesh out the reductio case so thoroughly.

I can understand that - the dressing up of the elementary truth, and often, giving it a sardonic flavour (which adds layers, without needing to explain every layered connection dryly)...can make the point hit home more effectively and succintly.

Body language helps in this regard a lot - when my INTJ's eyes are focused directly on my face, yet scanning: my eyes, my expressions - he's looking for my reaction to his joke more than he is looking for investigation of the deeper truth in the joke. When his eyes look directly at my eyes, penetrating, holding my gaze, with that glint of imploring, you can see a question in there - where he's looking to see if I can understand the truth behind the joke, the truth that he's presenting, and wanting my thoughts on, and that it's not really about the impact of his joke.

There's also something else that happens, when we're exchanging veiled ideas as "insults" and jokes, where he's really more about getting a firm hold on his idea - he deadpans some "extreme" to afford him some time. Deflect. So that, in the time it takes for me to react to the distraction (the extreme), his core truth can be more solidified in understanding, from his end. And a more precise response would be ready for when it's his turn again. Ne/Ti against Ni/Te.......I got speed on my side, Ni slows him down. In our exchange, I probably average more hits than misses, but, the hits that he does get in, it's more substantial in content.

I think that's the way it works. After all, mere fanciful bullshitting isn't all that entertaining.

Fanciful bullshitting, when practiced as an artform D), can present the same type of core truths, if you take in all the context surrounding it. Cut through the cheese, so to speak.

The difference of perception also rises from the delivery: dead-pan making a case to be taken more seriously than say, ENTP- flavourful response, with a flair.

As well, it's not layers built on layers, like Ni, with a core truth at the center.

Ne has its hands, simultaneously, in far more cookie jars than most people interpret it to have - and it can seem superficial in that sense, when only the blatant association is considered, just one of the truth, which might not seem very deep, in isolation, thus "mere".

But that's because not all the associations, all the truths, that relate (one truth gives credence to another truth, which leads to another, to another), have been considered by the other party - the web is far more tangled than most people interpret it to be because they only focus on the spider at the center of it as the reality, as the only relevant truth. They forget that the spider is supported by the web, which is supported by the branch, which is supported by the tree, which is supported by the earth, and on, and on, we go...

The INTJ often finds such Ne rush coming from multiple angles, overwhelming, like I do, his Ni focus....

 

[Poki]

Also, I should say that it isn't that I'm paying no attention, but it's how Ni works. For an INxJ, after you say 3 words, I know the next 30 you're going to say more or less, and I'm not listening to what you say, but rather listening for whether you say anything I don't expect. Most people's speech is full of "um's" and "ah's" and pauses, and thought gatherings, and my Ni is just filtering all that out, running a parallel process, listening for patterns, predicting patterns. When you say something I don't expect, then you have my full attention again, and I have pull in Se and be present in the moment rather than living in my head.

I recognize this in me and pretty much when I am at this stage of Ni nothing will suprise me. I have pretty much went through every possible scenario, know the worst and hope for the best.

 

[sculpting]

I think you're letting him talk more, because you want the interaction more than you want to have the floor.

And yeah, he probably loses interest in the specific things you have to say, but he's not losing interest in you. It's how Ni works.

Here, let me explain ...

From my own experience, there are times when I want to listen to someone I like, but I'm really not focusing on what they're saying. I'm more kind of hearing the music of their voice, feeling the affection directed toward me, basking in the attention. Like having a cat purring in your lap, except she's talking happily instead of purring.

Also, I should say that it isn't that I'm paying no attention, but it's how Ni works. For an INxJ, after you say 3 words, I know the next 30 you're going to say more or less, and I'm not listening to what you say, but rather listening for whether you say anything I don't expect. Most people's speech is full of "um's" and "ah's" and pauses, and thought gatherings, and my Ni is just filtering all that out, running a parallel process, listening for patterns, predicting patterns. When you say something I don't expect, then you have my full attention again, and I have pull in Se and be present in the moment rather than living in my head.

So what I see going on is that you're feeling his Ni kick in, and it feels like you're being ignored. (Ni has kind of an autistic feel to it, to non-Ni people.) You can tell by our body language that we aren't focused in on you in an Se way, and it feels alienating. You might want to address this with him if you really want more specific attention, but for the most part, you're going to have to accept it as an "Ni thing." Trust me, he's still right there. You're in his space, talking to him, and he's not pushing you away. That's the INTJ way of expressing a deep and abiding affection.

ss, once you settle, do you find the Ni a bit entrancing? If I have time, I will actually stop and sit and listen to the INTJ talk about whatever.

U-is there a sense of cadence here-the sing song?

I vote for some sort of mutual Ni-Ne induction occurring between the two people. Like enfps can induce Fi in other Fi users via the "nudge" amar mentions.

I must now dance with the intj toddler who has an Se need for this sort of thing.

 

[Kra]

Fascinating and insightful stuff here, thank you.

I already commented on his lack of eye-contact, what I call his eye-contact issues, and I mentioned how it seems slightly autistic, too!!!

What is it with you INTJs and eye-contact, so weird!!!

I get this as well. If I look people in the eye, they say I'm too intimidating, if I don't, they say I'm too shy. It's a lose-lose for me I guess.

 

[uumlau]

U-is there a sense of cadence here-the sing song?

No, it's more a state of mind with the Ni just being itself. With most people, I have to either focus on the person or ignore them, as Kra describes in a slightly different way.

It's the reason with have trouble with intimacy. Our "intimate" is very focused and intimate, and not a relaxed state of mind. If we're "being ourselves" with you, that means having you there, being there for you, but it also means we're in our heads, both worlds existing at once, side-by-side. To listen to you carefully, or to be very intimate with you, means putting aside our inner world, and that inner world is represented by "Ni", our primary function. We're willing to do it, but it expends energy on our part, the same way being expressive of our emotions requires energy from us.

So, if an INTJ isn't focused on you, it feels less intimate, but it also means we're just being ourselves, recharging our batteries, and so on. It also means there's kind of a hot-and-cold thing going on, that feels awkward if you don't understand it. Our emotions aren't going hot and cold. If I love someone, it is with all of my heart (cf. hands-holding-sun pic I posted elsewhere on this forum to represent Fi). It doesn't go away just because I am quiet. It just isn't being projected outward.

I've a close female friend whom I'm fairly sure is INTJ. Her bf of 7 years left her, because he didn't feel like she loved him. My ex-wife left me largely because she felt I didn't love her. It's a real problem for INTJs.

 

[SillySapienne]

See, I don't ever get intimidated by eye-contact, ever.

I know INTJs are intense, as are we ENFPs.

Bring on the intensity, I say!!!

We'll love you more for it.

 

[Thalassa]

I got speed on my side, Ni slows him down. In our exchange, I probably average more hits than misses, but, the hits that he does get in, it's more substantial in content.

This is a great comparison you've made of Ne to Ni in general, I think, whether the secondary functions are Fi/Fe or Ti/Te.

 

[uumlau]

I've heard it put in a very succinct oxymoronic way:

"You are the most relaxed intense person I know."

 

[SillySapienne]

I've heard it put in a very succinct oxymoronic way:

"You are the most relaxed intense person I know."

^ That's how I envision my soulmate to be, true story.

 

[uumlau]

I really have to wonder the effect I had on my colleagues a few years back, when my Mom died (far too young).

They were all walking on eggshells around me.

As a very close friend of mine put it, "<Uumlau>, this is the only time I have ever seen you fazed by anything, whatsoever."

I think I was more intense than relaxed at the time.

 

[SillySapienne]

My father died of pancreatic cancer five years ago, and I know what you mean.

The two final years of his life were a devastating time, I think it was when I hit my nadir of being most emotionally unstable.

These things are understandable to those who are close to us, but probably quite an anomaly to those who aren't.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[sculpting]

Ugh, there is NOTHING WORSE, than someone who REFUSES to ACCEPT ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS!!!

Fucking hell yeah. (Do you recognize this is Tert Te at work? It sets the standards for ourselves and for others-using Fi definitions of course)

Being an asshole can be funny (as long as its funny). I actually prefer someone with a dark sense of humor. If you can't play around that way, then you're right to stay away from someone like that, because they'll just hurt your feelings and you'll irritate them by not getting their jokes, and possibly even hurt their feelings by striking back too harshly.

My favorite person to be horrifically dark and obnoxious to is an INFJ guy I know with a typical texas cowboy personality. I shock him horrifically. He doesnt understand how I can say the things I do. For some reason I am the worst with him. I just cant help it. The look of shock, yet puzzled amusement. He actually gives me the best dirt on INFJ guy mentality, or Fe guys in general. Not nearly as cute and fluffy as they appear.

edit: oh were you wondering about the ENFP-INTJ thing? I got hung up on the NFP-ENTP thing.

You forgot the blood and gore on page 67 or when OMT lost an eye on page 72.

I didn't feel like I should ask her out; I felt like I should knock her down a peg or two.

Greed, you so confuse me with your name change. I dont know what she was up to-maybe some fun Ti style competition, but I totally get what you were feeling. That is Te. Te to me feels like a bunch of young colts let out in a field on an early spring day when the grass is all green but it's just a bit frosty. They will run like hell, kick each other, playfully bite and assertively push each other around to re-establish the group dynamics. There is a sense of testing each other, finding those group dynamic boundaries still intact, then dropping the aggression to become a happy, comfy team. Ti seems to never quite drop the ongoing sense of one-upmanship. Maybe Fe doesnt ever really establish one specific leader, but rather an ongoing shifting group hegemony.

This diff freaks my ENTP out honestly. Once a strong Te leader has been identified, some rough punches been thrown to settle the org structure, then all the Te users tend to quickly buy in and follow the Te leaders vision with a sense of teamwork and loyalty. TiFe does no such thing-there is a game to play I guess, and the game doesnt ever end?? I dunno...

I recently had an ISTJ at work get transferred into another internal position. We suddenly were at conflict. He spent a few days trying to give me a strong Te stare which I had a hard time meeting directly at first as I was baffled as to why he would so this. I had only been nice to him. He was trying to establish dominance. This made me angry.

In four days I turned his entire group against him-via just letting them know about his actions, stopped helping them with any issues, informed my coworker of his actions, she stopped helping him, then showed him how useless his group was without our support. I also wrote him an email emphasizing how excellent I thought he could be in his new position but directly addressing an area where he had showed a decided lack of integrity in discussing employee issues.

Then I told everyone who awesome a leader he would be, sat in a meeting and supported him by directly challenging his predeccesor on how the group had been trained and managed, and today he gets acknowledged by a VP at our corporate meeting for his group's efforts.

He has started asking my opinion on his new hires. Welcome to how ENFPs deal with overt Te domination. "The dance of the butterflies"

 

[Halla74]

I know that the INTJ is the suggested "natural partner" for the ENFP, but I can't stand EVERY INTJ I have ever met.

How do you know these people are INTJ?

Do you administer a MBTI test to everyone you meet?

I doubt it.

Do you have assumptions about you not liking INTJs?

Probably.

Do you think you can accurately type people as INTJ for one reason or another?

Seems like it.

Could you possibly be compelled to not like someone that you type INTJ due to the negative stereotypes that have built up in you over time, before even giving them a chance as a person?

Yeah, you can. Would you like someone else to do that to you?