[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

[onemoretime]

It would be nice if every ENTP on this forum did just that. Got over themselves and how they sincerely believe there's wisdom in every wall of text they crank out.

3 vs 34 words. Gotcha. Wall of text indeed.

Ok. You consider certain actions harmful. And I think you're painting worst case scenarios and totally misunderstanding how people play with Fi in a romantic context.

And I think you're so incredibly wrapped up in self-justification and avoidance of any semblance of self-evaluation or introspection, just because you're afraid of the potential consequences, that you don't see the incredibly blatant point - this is a form of power that you are using over others. Power exerted over others without their consent is immoral, unethical, and given the incredibly notable exception we're talking about here, for the most part illegal.

I don't care what the hell you do with someone you know well and clearly have mutual consent with. I do care that because you're in a "romantic relationship" with someone, that you may think you have this level of consent. You don't. Not until it is clearly given. Thinking that you have this level of consent and exercising this emotional influence on someone who does not want you to can pierce a person's soul and leave long-lasting, cancerous wounds.

But go ahead and dismiss all of this, thinking you've never done such a thing in your life. There's a 95% probability you have, several times, and you've never even known it. And if that's the case, given what I know about several healthy Fi users, the reason for that is because you don't want to know it, because of what you'd have to face about yourself at that point.

Well, at least three ENFPs don't appreciate your contribution, so what does that tell you?

Three ENFPs don't appreciate my contribution. Good for them, they're entitled to their opinion. They're not entitled to influence my speech.

Besides, I think SS actually does like my contributions - she doesn't seem like the kind of woman who would want to be accompanied by simpering sycophants of men, but rather ones that would challenge her ways of looking at things, and ones that she could do the same for.

At least that's my impression.

Yeah, the longer I'm on the forum, the more I'm convinced by various ENTP members on this site that collectively you are one of my least favorite types. You go around beating people over the head with Ti and then telling them to "toughen up." I really don't like that about you guys ... it's rude, obnoxious, and self-absorbed....except for when it's funny, and it's just not in this case.

Yeah, the longer I'm on the former, the more I'm convinced by various ENFP members that stereotyping people based on an artificial classification system is about as stupid a thing you can do as any. You don't like me? Fine, can't win 'em all I guess. However, don't go thinking you can keep scapegoating a set of people simply because a set of characteristics irritates you. It's what the assholes in the South did in the Jim Crow era, the North did during the immigrant era, the West did toward Chinese people, and oh yeah, some Central European country did toward some ethnic groups that ended up with 12 million dead.

It is the core of man's inhumanity to man, and yes, this is me absolutely being judgmental, the absolute worst thing we can do to one another. Don't lose yourself in this bitter, unending pit of destruction.

Ce la vie.

Quite

I'm the one projecting but you're talking about thought suppression and Orwell? Mmkay.

I'm not saying you can't think this way - I'm just saying you are coming across this way.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Sigh, this is just so amateurish; why havent the admins stepped in to rescue this thread. I was quite enjoying having an ENFP-INTJ conversation thread. This is now just stupid; I'm boycotting this game with most of the other INTJs.

And why exactly do we have ENTPs posting about how much they hate Fi when the threads topic is quite clearly "ENFP + INTJ = Disasterous Combo?". Go make another thread; either that or grow up and agree to disagree or you will all be getting some INTJ medicine.

 

[Thalassa]

And I think you're so incredibly wrapped up in self-justification and avoidance of any semblance of self-evaluation or introspection, just because you're afraid of the potential consequences, that you don't see the incredibly blatant point - this is a form of power that you are using over others. Power exerted over others without their consent is immoral, unethical, and given the incredibly notable exception we're talking about here, for the most part illegal.

Illegal? Lol wut? We aren't talking about physically invading anyone's space or stealing from them. You can't apply legalistic jargon to intangibles. Somebody lacks Te.

I don't care what the hell you do with someone you know well and clearly have mutual consent with. I do care that because you're in a "romantic relationship" with someone, that you may think you have this level of consent. You don't. Not until it is clearly given. Thinking that you have this level of consent and exercising this emotional influence on someone who does not want you to can pierce a person's soul and leave long-lasting, cancerous wounds.

But go ahead and dismiss all of this, thinking you've never done such a thing in your life. There's a 95% probability you have, several times, and you've never even known it. And if that's the case, given what I know about several healthy Fi users, the reason for that is because you don't want to know it, because of what you'd have to face about yourself at that point.

Yeah, we're all just a bunch of rapists, and you want us to face it because you got some Fi butthurt from some nameless individual that you want to hang on us collectively as a group...but I'm judging people for their four-letter type?

Three ENFPs don't appreciate my contribution. Good for them, they're entitled to their opinion. They're not entitled to influence my speech.

You're not entitled to influence mine, either.

Besides, I think SS actually does like my contributions - she doesn't seem like the kind of woman who would want to be accompanied by simpering sycophants of men, but rather ones that would challenge her ways of looking at things, and ones that she could do the same for.

At least that's my impression.

SS has a boyfriend, so I doubt she's even thinking of you in terms of being a man, simpering, sycophantic, or not...but, anyway, I don't like that either. In fact, one of the reasons why I like the exchange of power and dominance/submission and playing up to someone in a relationship is because I like for men to be slightly dominant. In a sexual relationship. Not in a random conversation on the Internet about imaginary, over-generalized Fi butthurt.

Yeah, the longer I'm on the former, the more I'm convinced by various ENFP members that stereotyping people based on an artificial classification system is about as stupid a thing you can do as any.

Apparently you're calling your own actions stupid then, because you're sitting around calling us a bunch of Fi rapists.

You don't like me? Fine, can't win 'em all I guess. However, don't go thinking you can keep scapegoating a set of people simply because a set of characteristics irritates you. It's what the assholes in the South did in the Jim Crow era, the North did during the immigrant era, the West did toward Chinese people, and oh yeah, some Central European country did toward some ethnic groups that ended up with 12 million dead.

More fun with tert Fe emotional, hyperbolic language. Zzzzzzz.

It is the core of man's inhumanity to man, and yes, this is me absolutely being judgmental, the absolute worst thing we can do to one another. Don't lose yourself in this bitter, unending pit of destruction.

Lay off the drugs, man. It's MBTI not gay rights.

I'm not saying you can't think this way - I'm just saying you are coming across this way.

Fi backed by Te can come across as pretty authoritative, but I didn't realize that it was so intimidating to big strong men on the Intertubez.

 

[Valiant]

Sigh, this is just so amateurish; why havent the admins stepped in to rescue this thread. I was quite enjoying having an ENFP-INTJ conversation thread. This is now just stupid; I'm boycotting this game with most of the other INTJs.

And why exactly do we have ENTPs posting about how much they hate Fi when the threads topic is quite clearly "ENFP + INTJ = Disasterous Combo?". Either that or grow up and agree to disagree or you will all be getting some INTJ medicine.

Just thought the same... What the heck are ENTPs even doing in the thread?

 

[simulatedworld]

^ Well, I was trying to talk to the INTJs about their perspectives and how they perceive and relate to Ne people, which seems pretty on topic to me.

Unfortunately it all went down hill from there.

btw, it's harder to fit into type-specific threads when you don't change your type every other day. What are ENFJs masquerading as INTJs doing in here?

 

[Thalassa]

Sigh, this is just so amateurish; why havent the admins stepped in to rescue this thread. I was quite enjoying having an ENFP-INTJ conversation thread. This is now just stupid; I'm boycotting this game with most of the other INTJs.

And why exactly do we have ENTPs posting about how much they hate Fi when the threads topic is quite clearly "ENFP + INTJ = Disasterous Combo?".

Thank you, Jim. That's what I said.

Go make another thread; either that or grow up and agree to disagree or you will all be getting some INTJ medicine.

oooh ....oooh...give us some INTJ medicine!

 

[Qre:us]

And why exactly do we have ENTPs posting about how much they hate Fi when the threads topic is quite clearly "ENFP + INTJ = Disasterous Combo?". Go make another thread; either that or grow up and agree to disagree or you will all be getting some INTJ medicine.

I agree about another thread and leaving this topic to be about ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo.

Just as us ENTPs keep going, it seems it's because some others feel it necessary to keep responding OFF-TOPIC to us, being ENFP themselves. One would think that a person who complains about how we bad ENTPs have let this thread get so off-topic would try to direct the responses to be on topic. But, no, that would be too logical.

They would rather respond off-topic and keep up this exchange with us "bothersome" ENTPS, than try to redirect the topic about ENFP/INTJ.

YET! They're all for this thread to go back on track. Contradiction much?

It's not solely the ENTPs to blame.

 

[Timeless]

ENFP + INTJ ... ?

I've seen it before.

It's like putting bananas and rocks in the blender. The blender will brake, the banana will be all over the place, and the rock will be dizzy.

 

[onemoretime]

Sigh, this is just so amateurish; why havent the admins stepped in to rescue this thread. I was quite enjoying having an ENFP-INTJ conversation thread. This is now just stupid; I'm boycotting this game with most of the other INTJs.

And why exactly do we have ENTPs posting about how much they hate Fi when the threads topic is quite clearly "ENFP + INTJ = Disasterous Combo?". Go make another thread; either that or grow up and agree to disagree or you will all be getting some INTJ medicine.

Ain't it obvious? We smelled the bubbling Fi permeating the rest of the forum, and had to muddle the whole thing, because WE HATES IT WE HATES IT. Clearly.

Also, this board has been boring for the most part lately. Just a lull in the natural flow of things. Being rather close to both ENFP and INTJ in type, of course we should be interested.

Illegal? Lol wut? We aren't talking about physically invading anyone's space or stealing from them. You can't apply legalistic jargon to intangibles. Somebody lacks Te.

I guess I really have pissed you off. The shadow ISTJ is coming out.

Yeah, we're all just a bunch of rapists, and you want us to face it because you got some Fi butthurt from some nameless individual that you want to hang on us collectively as a group...but I'm judging people for their four-letter type?

Do you really have no concept of an action being separate from the person who committed it? No idea of what "love the sinner, hate the sin" means? Are your relationships with people so flimsy that a single action could change your entire concept of that person?

You're not entitled to influence mine, either.

Nope, not in the least bit. It's up to you if you want to listen. It's clear what your decision has been. I won't bother asking you if you're happy with it, because that's clearly not the point, is it?

SS has a boyfriend, so I doubt she's even thinking of you in terms of being a man, simpering, syophantic, or not...

Lol wut? Did I miss the thread where women talked about how being in a relationship magically transformed their perception of the world to a monosexual one? No wonder I see all those girls trying to walk into the men's room - they were just not paying attention, because they were in a relationship!

but, anyway, I don't like that either. In fact, one of the reasons why I like the exchange of power and dominance/submission and playing up to someone in a relationship is because I like for men to be slightly dominant. In a sexual relationship. Not in a random conversation on the Internet about imaginary, over-generalized Fi butthurt.

You know, the ad hominem and projection were one thing, but jumping to emasculation and assertion of sexual superiority this quickly? I've got to say, I'm somewhat honored - that you had to resort to your bottom-barrel reserves in so short a time.

Apparently you're calling your own actions stupid then, because you're sitting around calling us a bunch of Fi rapists.

Actions do not equal people. Ugh, this repetition is getting tiresome.

More fun with tert Fe emotional, hyperbolic language. Zzzzzzz.

I'd at least expect Ne to recognize the analogy. More shadow ISTJ I guess.

Lay off the drugs, man. It's MBTI not gay rights.

Lay off the drugs, babe. It's soccer, not warfare (never mind the violence that occurs at some of these matches)

Fi backed by Te can come across as pretty authoritative, but I didn't realize that it was so intimidating to big strong men on the Intertubez.

You're wrong. Just like you've been with everything else.

 

[Thalassa]

I guess I really have pissed you off. The shadow ISTJ is coming out.

I'm not pissed off. You're just annoyed that I have Te. Everyone knows that ENFPs should just be cute little fluffy emotional rapists who run solely on Ne/Fi.

Do you really have no concept of an action being separate from the person who committed it? No idea of what "love the sinner, hate the sin" means? Are your relationships with people so flimsy that a single action could change your entire concept of that person?

I have a very deep sense of action being seperate from the person who committed it. You know nothing about my relationships - but apparently imagine that you do, not only from this comment, but from the previous post where you asserted that 95% of us are assuredly violating our dates!

Nope, not in the least bit. It's up to you if you want to listen. It's clear what your decision has been. I won't bother asking you if you're happy with it, because that's clearly not the point, is it?

You think you're saying something earth-shattering, when most ENFPs here (I think most of us are over 25...) are perfectly aware of how young ENFPs hurt others with flirtations and dalliances. I've long since dealt with it, and I'm sure that Amar has...seeing as that she's been in a LTR for ten years...and Happy Puppy seems to be in agreeance that Fi can be misused...and you're alraedy so sure of SS....who here exactly are you trying to confront with your magnificent message that young ENFPs sometimes lead people on? I really think most of us are past that. You just want us to "oooh" and "aaah" and say "oooh that never occurred to me." We have Fi, so of course we're introspective. This is a given.

Lol wut? Did I miss the thread where women talked about how being in a relationship magically transformed their perception of the world to a monosexual one? No wonder I see all those girls trying to walk into the men's room - they were just not paying attention, because they were in a relationship!

I'm not entirely sure why you thought SS would be impressed with your manhood, though. We were having a debate. I'm not sure how this even became a sexual conversation...

You know, the ad hominem and projection were one thing, but jumping to emasculation and assertion of sexual superiority this quickly? I've got to say, I'm somewhat honored - that you had to resort to your bottom-barrel reserves in so short a time.

How am I emasculating you or asserting sexual superiority? You've really got some hang ups with women. The stuff you're saying is really weird and has nothing to do with anything.

Actions do not equal people. Ugh, this repetition is getting tiresome.

Yes, it is, seeing as that I already know that and it's actually one of my deep convictions.

I'd at least expect Ne to recognize the analogy. More shadow ISTJ I guess.



Lay off the drugs, babe. It's soccer, not warfare (never mind the violence that occurs at some of these matches)



You're wrong. Just like you've been with everything else.

Your analogies are hyperbolic and ridiculous. You're being melodramatic. Language is no longer poetry when the meaning behind it is swamped in utter absurdity.

 

[sculpting]

hey Biaaatches, check out my new sig. That was hysterical! Even though I have now redefined myself as an ENTF.

INTJS

Can we touch back on the testing please?

What is pass/fail criteria? Do you even know? Does this require specific measurements or illustration of known flaws so that you can assess severity of impact upon the relationship long term?

PS-I kinda dig Marm's Te myself. She's purty cool. sweet yet salty all at once.

 

[uumlau]

Crying certainly DOES NOT make you right, it just means you're emotional, and need a release.

I've cried when I've been wrong just as much as I've cried when I've been wronged.

To me, that crying was interpreted as manipulation - for me to stop my "attack" on her, and to get coddled by the observers. (I knew her well enough to know some of her 'ways')

W/r to the ongoing squabble about "Fi manipulation."

I think I've narrowed the two lines above as the source of it. It might go further back, and other variations on a theme that I missed, but this is the first post as I traced back that actually specified what "Fi manipulation" is.

It's when an Fi user cries.



(And insert any sort of Fi expression of emotion instead of crying ... my reasoning, as follows, will still apply.)

Actually, I think I understand where the negative vibes are coming from, because Fi and Fe have very different contexts. For Fi, emotions are what one feels, always. It isn't really about how others feel, it isn't about figuring out how to affect others with one's emotions, etc. The emotions are just there. For an Fi user, it can often be a torrent of emotions, very intense.

In general, if an Fi user cries, it's genuine, not to garner sympathy from onlookers, for example.

Here's the problem: for an Fe user, emotions are not only felt, they are used. If an expression of emotion gains someone a social advantage, Fe users spot that right away, and will typically believe that emotional expression was intended to gain that social advantage, especially if the Fe user believes that the particular social advantage is undeserved or unfair.

In an Fi-to-Fi situation, it would play out differently: Fi #1 cries. Fi #2 probably has some idea why Fi #1 is crying, whether for a good reason or a stupid one. Either way, Fi #2 will comfort Fi #1. And, once that is done, if the crying was for a stupid reason, then Fi #2 will give Fi #1 a piece of his/her mind!

But in the Fi-to-Fe case, the Fe is outraged that the Fi resorts to tears, especially if the tears are for a stupid reason. It's not fair, the Fe user thinks, especially when even the Fe user will want to feel sympathetic. In fact, it's that Fe feeling that one's own emotions are being manipulated that is causing the outrage. :steam:

Interestingly, this may well explain part of the INTJ/ENFP dynamic, and hopefully bring this thread back on track. INTJs use Te, not Fe, and in fact have very little Fe.

INTJs are effectively immune to what is being called "Fi manipulation." They'll generally take the ENFP's expression of emotions as genuine, no matter what. And the INTJ's Te will not be swayed into doing anything stupid: an INTJ is unlikely to give the ENFP whatever she wants just to make her stop crying ... partly because it will take him forever to figure out what it is she wants.

 

[simulatedworld]

lol @ thread

 

[sculpting]

it got deeper though U,

it ended up with some long standing arguments over using Fi on folks outside of the scope of a relationship and damage that may be caused.

It also revolved around the idea of playing with concepts of pretend helplessness, which may be a natural Fi mechanism of flirting I'd guess.

Total translation error-of significant interest-that went nuclear.

 

[Thalassa]

hey Biaaatches, check out my new sig. That was hysterical! Even though I have now redefined myself as an ENTF.

INTJS

Can we touch back on the testing please?

What is pass/fail criteria? Do you even know? Does this require specific measurements or illustration of known flaws so that you can assess severity of impact upon the relationship long term?

PS-I kinda dig Marm's Te myself. She's purty cool. sweet yet salty all at once.

Happy Puppy!!! I R KETTLE KORN.

I also sincerely agree that we need moar INTJs responding to this thread. Good call.

 

[uumlau]

hey Biaaatches, check out my new sig. That was hysterical! Even though I have now redefined myself as an ENTF.

INTJS

Can we touch back on the testing please?

What is pass/fail criteria? Do you even know? Does this require specific measurements or illustration of known flaws so that you can assess severity of impact upon the relationship long term?

Oh, the "testing."

There's a secret about the tests.

They aren't tests.

It's that the INTJ doesn't have the balls to actually talk to you like a normal person. So instead of actually getting to know you, we instead attempt to objectively classify you as to what kind of person you are.

The conclusions of all these "tests" are thought by the typical INTJ as being useful. They aren't. They're looking at the wrong thing.

In essence, they're looking at you as an object. A "person-object" to be sure, but an object, nonetheless. After all, Te is objective. So they look at you in terms of the role you might fulfill in their life, and they compare their imagined role for you with you. It's almost cute, actually.

Eventually, if the INTJ is lucky, he/she gets to know you as a person, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the "tests" except insofar as you were not unequivocally disqualified as a potential friend/partner/lover.

 

[Ivy]

Sigh, this is just so amateurish; why havent the admins stepped in to rescue this thread. I was quite enjoying having an ENFP-INTJ conversation thread. This is now just stupid; I'm boycotting this game with most of the other INTJs.

And why exactly do we have ENTPs posting about how much they hate Fi when the threads topic is quite clearly "ENFP + INTJ = Disasterous Combo?". Go make another thread; either that or grow up and agree to disagree or you will all be getting some INTJ medicine.

Remember that we rely partly on members to let us know when things go down the tubes. I don't read every thread on the forum and I don't think any of the other madmins do either. I haven't set foot in here until just now.

Having said that, I am so not in a position to thoughtfully attend to the issues in here at the moment, there being almost 800 posts and all. So please let this serve as a general warning. More specific treatment to follow.

 

[onemoretime]

I'm not pissed off. You're just annoyed that I have Te. Everyone knows that ENFPs should just be cute little fluffy emotional rapists who run solely on Ne/Fi.

No. I'm annoyed that you're being willfully obtuse. Happy Puppy is a very Te-oriented ENFP. She doesn't piss me off one bit - because she lets her Ne play with it and figure things out. You seem to just use it to protect yourself from the negative emotions that would come from admitting that you're wrong about things, you make mistakes, and yes, you've harmed people in your life without a single thought.

I have a very deep sense of action being seperate from the person who committed it. You know nothing about my relationships - but apparently imagine that you do, not only from this comment, but from the previous post where you asserted that 95% of us are assuredly violating our dates!

You're clearly demonstrating that here. Nice trap you tried to set there, btw - good to see the Ne coming back into play.

You think you're saying something earth-shattering, when most ENFPs here (I think most of us are over 25...) are perfectly aware of how young ENFPs hurt others with flirtations and dalliances. I've long since dealt with it, and I'm sure that Amar has...seeing as that she's been in a LTR for ten years...and Happy Puppy seems to be in agreeance that Fi can be misused...and you're alraedy so sure of SS....who here exactly are you trying to confront with your magnificent message that young ENFPs sometimes lead people on? I really think most of us are past that. You just want us to "oooh" and "aaah" and say "oooh that never occurred to me." We have Fi, so of course we're introspective. This is a given.

Yeah, but you haven't seemingly made it to the important part: "yeah, I've fucked up in the past. I've learned a lot from it, and I try every day to make sure I don't hurt another person in that very same way." Instead, when someone brings up another instance where you might be inadvertently harming someone, you build excuse upon excuse, blaming everyone and everything but the behavior itself. When it would be so much easier to say "wow, I never realized that this impacts others in this way. I'm glad I know this now, because I'd hate to do this to a person ever again."

BTW, I've alienated myself from many people from Ti behaviors out of control. It hurts every day. You learn from every scar, no matter how painful.

I'm not entirely sure why you thought SS would be impressed with your manhood, though. We were having a debate. I'm not sure how this even became a sexual conversation...

Sigh... it was never about my masculinity. I happen to be male, so I referred to myself as a man. That's all.

How am I emasculating you or asserting sexual superiority? You've really got some hang ups with women. The stuff you're saying is really weird and has nothing to do with anything.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, exhibit Z.

Yes, it is, seeing as that I already know that and it's actually one of my deep convictions.

Great. Try exercising those convictions when you read someone else's thoughts.

Your analogies are hyperbolic and ridiculous. You're being melodramatic. Language is no longer poetry when the meaning behind it is swamped in utter absurdity.

Your comprehension is stilted and suppressed. You're being willfully obtuse. Language doesn't have to be poetry to still express thought.

 

[proteanmix]

IJ, I guess I'll show my bitters now: last time I tried to preempt the Fi-bashing I was told to see my way out. Plus this thread is pretty funny.

I would ask what the hell ENTPs are doing in this thread though. Don't yall have some INFJs to trip and fumble over?

 

[Qre:us]

but this is the first post as I traced back that actually specified what "Fi manipulation" is.

It's when an Fi user cries.

What Happy Puppy said, and also, this post of mine (since I brought in this term, Fi manipulation, which later, another xNFP agreed with) outlines exactly what I was speaking of:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/1047322-post538.html

Here's the problem: for an Fe user, emotions are not only felt, they are used. If an expression of emotion gains someone a social advantage, Fe users spot that right away, and will typically believe that emotional expression was intended to gain that social advantage, especially if the Fe user believes that the particular social advantage is undeserved or unfair.

I can see this to be the case, but, that specific example with my ex-roomie and her crying, nah, I'm 100% sure she did it for show. She had even previously joked about her "skills" to be able to cry at the drop of a hat, to get "Daddy to do this, that," to get her bf to do this, that. That was just that particular girl's M.O.

I wouldn't miscontrue all crying, unless it's appropriate by my standards to the situation, to be fake. I'm Ne-dom, I'm pretty good at looking at things from other perspectives. This, coupled with TiFe, also makes me have a pretty all right bullshit (creator/)detector too.

But in the Fi-to-Fe case, the Fe is outraged that the Fi resorts to tears, especially if the tears are for a stupid reason. It's not fair, the Fe user thinks, especially when even the Fe user will want to feel sympathetic. In fact, it's that Fe feeling that one's own emotions are being manipulated that is causing the outrage. :steam:

Does this mean I would feel sympathy for an Fe-user crying faster than I would for an Fi-user crying?