[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

[Amargith]

Thoughts aren't owned in the same way emotions are owned by a person. Because one is felt, and the other is not.

I don't care if you play with my thoughts, only rule: do not attribute that thought to me, once you've played with it.

Otherwise, go ahead, knock yourself out (and, most times, I'd even want you to play around with it, I lead with Ne).

However, the same thing cannot be done with emotions. Because....it is personally felt.

I think that's also coz you feel more secure there. I don't have a problem with someone trying to play with my emotions, coz I know them through and through. I don't appreciate people turning my head upside down though, coz it leaves me feeling abused and stuck cleaning up the mess.

 

[Qre:us]

I think that's also coz you feel more secure there. I don't have a problem with someone trying to play with my emotions, coz I know them through and through. I don't appreciate people turning my head upside down though, coz it leaves me feeling abused and stuck cleaning up the mess.

But, if what you said above is true, then it's all emotions, you're responding with.

Obviously you care about someone playing with your emotions, then, if you attach emotions to everything, including thoughts, such that if a "line is crossed"...it evokes an emotion in you, of feeling abused???

So, do you, or do you not, care about your emotions being played with?

 

[Oaky]

Does there have to be?

There always is whether or not there has to be.

By what standard?

Status.

Because nuclear physics doesn't work with the Newtonian model.

Indeed. Though it does not change what is true.

 

[Amargith]

But, if what you said above is true, then it's all emotions, you're responding with.

Obviously you care about someone playing with your emotions, then, if you attach emotions to everything, including thoughts, such that if a "line is crossed"...it evokes an emotion in you, of feeling abused???

So, do you, or do you not, care about your emotions being played with?

I have no problem with people prodding my emotions, as long as I know upfront, or I don't know the person, or if it's someone I know, they're clearly teasing (aka trust won't be violated). I do have a problem with people trying to mindfuck me as I have trouble reasoning my way out of it. And that frustrates me. The emotion is at that point a byproduct though. If they also won't stop when I ask them too, that leaves me feeling abused and trust will be slow to repair if at all.

However, if people are on purpose trying to frustrate me..I see it coming miles away, and I'll gladly join the game

 

[Poki]

Thoughts aren't owned in the same way emotions are owned by a person. Because one is felt, and the other is not.

I don't care if you play with my thoughts, only rule: do not attribute that thought to me, once you've played with it.

Otherwise, go ahead, knock yourself out (and, most times, I'd even want you to play around with it, I lead with Ne).

However, the same thing cannot be done with emotions. Because....it is personally felt.



?? I don't understand what you're meaning here. If you mean that you misrepresented what the other said/meant (manipulation), then, see above, my point about "only rule".
Also, see:

My thoughts are owned in the same way that feelings are owned. IRL they are an extremely private thing, all you get to generally see is my actions. I dont want someone to just take my thoughts without making it their own internal judgements. I dont want that kind of responsibility over others actions. Now I may try to logically help them, but it is not necesarily my personal logic, but helping them with their logic.

 

[onemoretime]

There always is whether or not there has to be.

Sure about that? Can we not simply be?

Status.

What kind of status?

Indeed. Though it does not change what is true.

That both are simply models at looking at things? Ya, I'll grant you that one - that is true. The question then is whether or not the universe as we perceive it is simply the same.

 

[Qre:us]

I have no problem with people prodding my emotions, as long as I know upfront, or I don't know the person, or if it's someone I know, they're clearly teasing (aka trust won't be violated). I do have a problem with people trying to mindfuck me as I have trouble reasoning my way out of it. And that frustrates me. The emotion is at that point a byproduct though. If they also won't stop when I ask them too, that leaves me feeling abused and trust will be slow to repair if at all.

However, if people are on purpose trying to frustrate me..I see it coming miles away, and I'll gladly join the game

Whether it's a byproduct or not, you somewhere along the way attached a feeling to the thought, an emotion, and it is your emotion that makes you feel happy or sad. A thought itself has no emotional flavour. Neither happy, nor sad.

My thoughts are owned in the same way that feelings are owned. IRL they are an extremely private thing, all you get to generally see is my actions. I dont want someone to just take my thoughts without making it their own internal judgements. I dont want that kind of responsibility over others actions. Now I may try to logically help them, but it is not necesarily my personal logic, but helping them with their logic.

How would anyone know your thoughts unless you tell them? So any thoughts that are private, stays private. Any thoughts that are manifested, projected out, is not private any longer. It is still within your control - what to make private, what to make public. In this, you give consent for it to be played with.

Emotions that are private, or public, regardless, are still a person's feelings. It doesn't necessarily give you the right to play with them.

You make a statement about suicide. I take that statement and start thinking of possible other responses to it. It's not about you, or me, it's about the topic of suicide.

You have a feeling about committing suicide. I take that feeling and start to play around with them in possible ways. It is about you, and me doing it to you, about your personal stance/feelings on suicide.

Imagine the difference.

There's a reason why there's something called emotional abuse, but no such thing called a thought abuse - except "thought police"/censorship - where one is stopped from thinking. Emotional abuse is not about stopping someone from feeling, though. It is about making them feel something negative that is not what they want to feel.

Emotion is felt. A thought is neutral, unless a value is attached to it (then, it becomes paired with a feeling/an emotion).

 

[Amargith]

There is such a thing as brainwashing though. And that is also illegal.

 

[Oaky]

Sure about that? Can we not simply be?

Why would we simply be?

What kind of status?

Everything that has so far happened in your life to make you stand where you are now.

That both are simply models at looking at things? Ya, I'll grant you that one - that is true. The question then is whether or not the universe as we perceive it is simply the same.

The perception is that everyone's perception is different.

 

[onemoretime]

Why would we simply be?

Why not?

Everything that has so far happened in your life to make you stand where you are now.

Is that knowledge...? Or are those simply the impacts of some other bits of matter and energy upon myself, creating a pattern?

Am I the same person I was ten years ago, not having a single molecule shared between us?

The perception is that everyone's perception is different.

But does that make anyone's perception true in the first place?

 

[Qre:us]

There is such a thing as brainwashing though. And that is also illegal.

Literature on mind control, will all tell you, "brainwashing" is impossible without tapping into their emotions.

E.g. in Hypnosis, no one can make you commit something, if your ethical value is against it. No amount of manipulation of only thought can do that.

 

[SillySapienne]

Q, question.

Thoughts and emotions are so inextricably entwined, er, at least for some, or most of us.

Emotions trigger thoughts trigger emotions trigger thoughts trigger emotions, ad infinitum.

Granted, some thoughts lend themselves more to triggering emotional responses than others.

But, even, to a wee extent, the simple thought, right now, of, hmm, I need to pee, triggers a physiological feeling that is mildly uncomfortable, and feeling this physiological response, makes me feel annoyed, I know I could easily relieve myself, but I'm so cozy right now, with my dog at my side, and it's freakin' cold in my house, and why would I leave the comfort of my couch, and ugh, always, always, each and everyday until the day I die, at the very least, five times a day I must pee, annoying, annoying, ugh.

^ Can you see the thought/emotion/thought/emotion train there?

Granted, I can also think about my emotions, this is how we become emotionally mature and accountable people, we recognize that we feel and why we feel the way we feel.

But, thoughts, train of thoughts can lead to such elation, such despair, excitable thoughts, fearful thoughts, dreadful thoughts.

Forgot my point.

Time to finally pee.

 

[onemoretime]

^^ Works the other way around for me. I get the physiological impulse of needing to pee, which triggers the emotionless thought "man, I gotta go".

 

[Qre:us]

Q, question.

Thoughts and emotions are so inextricably entwined, er, at least for some, or most of us.

Emotions trigger thoughts trigger emotions trigger thoughts trigger emotions, ad infinitum.

Granted, some thoughts lend themselves more to triggering emotional responses than others.

But, even, to a wee extent, the simple thought, right now, of, hmm, I need to pee, triggers a physiological feeling that is mildly uncomfortable, and feeling this physiological response, makes me feel annoyed, I know I could easily relieve myself, but I'm so cozy right now, with my dog at my side, and it's freakin' cold in my house, and why would I leave the comfort of my couch, and ugh, always, always, each and everyday until the day I die, at the very least, five times a day I must pee, annoying, annoying, ugh.

^ Can you see the thought/emotion/thought/emotion train there?

Granted, I can also think about my emotions, this is how we become emotionally mature and accountable people, we recognize that we feel and why we feel the way we feel.

But, thoughts, train of thoughts can lead to such elation, such despair, excitable thoughts, fearful thoughts, dreadful thoughts.

Forgot my point.

Time to finally pee.

Err....you have a feeling of needing to pee? A tinkling sensation? Which makes you then want to pee? P on!

If you're asking how we can differentiate something as a "pure thought" versus one that is entangled in emotions - my simplest answer would be: motivation.

A thought is a thought is a thought. When I think more on the thought, it's because of a feeling of motivation (not about the thought, but about a thought on the thought), that makes me feel that the thought is of some value, and thus, should be explored further. Hence, motivation to continue with my exploration.

I have plenty of thoughts that I'm actually in no way attached to. My motivation is very apparent though, in my want to explore the thought. My thoughts on the thought. Hence, I can sometimes be very persistent in a debate. Not as much because the topic is of some personal value to me, but I'm motivated by the process of inquiry.

It's not at the level of cognition we figure out thoughts versus thoughts/feelings, but at the level of metacognition.

 

[Poki]

Whether it's a byproduct or not, you somewhere along the way attached a feeling to the thought, an emotion, and it is your emotion that makes you feel happy or sad. A thought itself has no emotional flavour. Neither happy, nor sad.



How would anyone know your thoughts unless you tell them? So any thoughts that are private, stays private. Any thoughts that are manifested, projected out, is not private any longer. It is still within your control - what to make private, what to make public. In this, you give consent for it to be played with.

Emotions that are private, or public, regardless, are still a person's feelings. It doesn't necessarily give you the right to play with them.

You make a statement about suicide. I take that statement and start thinking of possible other responses to it. It's not about you, or me, it's about the topic of suicide.

You have a feeling about committing suicide. I take that feeling and start to play around with them in possible ways. It is about you, and me doing it to you, about your personal stance/feelings on suicide.

Imagine the difference.

There's a reason why there's something called emotional abuse, but no such thing called a thought abuse - except "thought police"/censorship - where one is stopped from thinking. Emotional abuse is not about stopping someone from feeling, though. It is about making them feel something negative that is not what they want to feel.

Emotion is felt. A thought is neutral, unless a value is attached to it (then, it becomes paired with a feeling/an emotion).

Have you ever heard the phrase gullible? Its when you can convince people of things that they cannot logically fight and from then on believe them to be true. I play around with gulliblility alot, but I will never walk away and allow that person to believe it is true if I know for a fact it is not. Do you know the damage you can do if you do this to someone, how they may act based on that thought, what reprecussions it may have down the road if they dont understand otherwise.

edit: these are not my thoughts though and they never enter back into my actual thought process.

 

[Qre:us]

Have you ever heard the phrase gullible? Its when you can convince people of things that they cannot logically fight and from then on believe them to be true. I play around with gulliblility alot, but I will never walk away and allow that person to believe it is true if I know for a fact it is not. Do you know the damage you can do if you do this to someone, how they may act based on that thought, what reprecussions it may have down the road if they dont understand otherwise.

How do you make one a gullible victim unless they are wanting/motivated to believe, in the first place?

You act upon the thoughts, but you act through the vulnerability of their emotions - their level of trust.

 

[Oaky]

Why not?

Because you are alive.

Is that knowledge...? Or are those simply the impacts of some other bits of matter and energy upon myself, creating a pattern?

Am I the same person I was ten years ago, not having a single molecule shared between us?

So what is knowledge? And where does the 'you' of 10 years ago exist today?

But does that make anyone's perception true in the first place?

And if everyone has the same perception and it is false than what exists as the true perception?

 

[Poki]

How do you make one a gullible victim unless they are wanting/motivated to believe, in the first place?

You act upon the thoughts, but you act through the vulnerability of their emotions - their level of trust.

When you are in a position where people do believe you, they dont need any motivation, they simply believe. I put myself in this position a whole lot because I hold the impression with people around me IRL that there is nothing I cant figure out. People arnt motivated to believe me, they trust me from experience and because I hold that trust I do not feel right leading them astray purposely.

I could just tell someone something and a year down the road something comes up and they remember what I said and act on it. How did I know they were gonna act on it? Because I know they trust me and have never given them a reason to in the past. No vulnerability or emotion that I can tell.

edit: I give up with this argument, some use "emotions" and others go through "thought" to brainwash.

 

[SillySapienne]

Depression, apathy, i.e. a lack of motivation to do ANYTHING!!!

That is why when some depressives get on anti-depressants they finally get the motivation to off themselves. :/

As a Feeler, and a Thinker, but I don't give a fuck y'all I will totally own the fact that I am at my BEST when I am Feeling right about myself, right about life, well, in other words, how I feel takes precedence of how great I think.

Grrrr, how to better explain.

I know I am a smart cookie, cool beans, and all, and I do need to be/feel intellectually stimulated to a degree to be/feel happy, but I much rather be emotionally happy/content/elated/excited/silly/open/expressive, in other words feel a broader and more consistent range of POSITIVE emotions than think, think, think, think, think, think, think.

I do not like thinking for the sake of intellectual masturbation, however, I do like thinking for the sake of intellectual growth, but growth that would affect my emotional self.

If I am not emotionally invested in some argument, for me, it won't be worth it to engage.

I will try my hardest to see the Truth, or the Reality of what's going on behind my Fi stance, and believe me, I have made plenty of concessions in my life, and sighed, happily, excitedly, hmm, haven't *thought* about it that way, but I HATE HATE HATE

HATE!!!

Arguing for the sake of arguing.

We, or I argue for the sake of revealing the truest Truth, and for all parties involved, hopefully, to come to a clearer understanding, but like I said, I prefer arguments which involve some moral imperative at its core.

Hmm, what was my point.

Oh, yeah!!!

Some days, well, some bad days, or bad months or moments, I really wish I could be like the rational blokes and blokettes I observe from a distance, granted, they don't seem particularly happy, but neither do they seem particularly down in the I-wish-I-were-dead dumps either.

Their mood(s) seem rather stable, never too happy, never too sad.

But, really, in the scheme of things, I do love being me, crazy, hyper-sensitive, emotional me.

It paints my world so vividly.



Not to say that Thinkers lead bland lives.

But sometimes I wonder if introverted thinkers do.

 

[SillySapienne]

How do you make one a gullible victim unless they are wanting/motivated to believe, in the first place?

:sad:

Some people rather believe in someone's, anyone's, derived, or should I say contrived "truth" than sit with themselves in their own doubt, because doubt and fear of the unknown makes many of us feel uncomfortable. :/

This is so sad, to me.

Our desire to believe in something trumping the quality of that which we believe.

:sad: