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[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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For a bunch of possibility seekers, you guys are sure sticking to what you know.

As much as Ne loves Ni, Si rejects it unless there's a reasonable foundation: "That doesn't feel like something I remember, how can that be possible if it doesn't feel right?"

The inferior function is explicitly rejected by the dominant. That's how the dominant is dominant. And dual seeking behaviour is real, people sometimes even explicitly ask others to do what their tertiary and inferior functions can't be relied on for. Ni runs a real risk of being viewed as faulty Si and rejected. This would take the form of suggestions that, perhaps, just sayin', and don't be offended but, maybe the Ni user has not looked at all the possibilities <rising tone indicating inoffensive question>. And this would be difficult to distinguish from those times when the ENFP is right and indeed the INTJ has not looked at all the possibilities.

The corresponding INTJ road block has it that as much as Ni is impressed by Ne, Se rejects it if doesn't involve movement in the world: "That's just annoying, the only real possibility is where you do this, this and this.

I speak again:

In both of these cases--where the Ne user rejects Ni originated ideas because they lack recognisable foundation, and where the Ni user rejects Ne options because they lack (or contradict chosen) immediate physical application--there is in the user the struggle between the dominant and the rejected inferior. Either the dominant wins out and allows the new possibility and the inferior is (obscurely) educated, or the inferior, being its reactive, barely conscious self, pokes the tertiary and the dominant clutches its skirts around its knees and sticks with the familiar.

This is an impressive and fundamental struggle. Trust and love built around, at least, the auxiliary/tertiary exchanges supports it. The inferior is allowed to relax its deathgrip on what can happen.


Now, what of that *(obscure)* education the inferior gets? The inferior does NOT learn anything about possibilities. It's not a possibilities function. And it's not really the inferior that is educated, is it?




(See, you saps. All of this has been about finding the way forward.)
 

the state i am in

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i don't have this experience above with dominant Ne types. there may be an underlying thread of traditionalism or two that sneaks its way around within the enp interior, but i think this is more about Fi than Si (i don't see it with entps). the biggest ramification of inferior Si in my experience with enps is that they don't remember if they've already said something about something yesterday or if i did or pretty much any previous detail at all. i don't find them error-checking what i say in nearly as strenuous a way apart from when really focused on Ti or Fi, Ne generally gives the benefit of the doubt not to the quality of your idea but more to the range of possibility that branches off of it. can you move forward or can you not? etc.

the only real complaint would be the total imbalance of past Ni vs future Ne possibility when estimating values. but this helps too, when the present draws both into better focus together. with strong secondary development there's a real sense of freedom for both parties to be themselves as freely as they can ever be.
 

Kalach

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[...] past Ni vs future Ne possibility [...]

All right, that does it! I'm getting out my Jung and seeing where you get this claim from. It's a feature of both Ni and Ne that they seek to escape the known, so "past Ni" sounds like contradiction.

For God's sake, man! We chart courses! That means, into unknown regions. Other people didn't know the path could be made.


The NPs have been messing with your head.
 

Laurie

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What's buggin you, Kalach? Been hurt by an ENFP?
 

Kalach

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(Hmmmm, I wonder if I'm about to prove State right...)

The true origin of this interest in inferior functions comes from interactions with ENXJs. I know what can happen in their company. (Or, to please State, I discovered what happens in their company.)


Way to win with the conservative guess there, E.



Now, either I'm right about these things, and this thread is a gigantic demonstration of the theory, conservative possibility engineering decrying such a weird and perverse possibility, or I'm wrong and it's so adorable this worrying at some perverse theory like a dog with a bone. Soooo.... interesting choice: observe that it's better to be conservative about truth and we can all step back and let the ENPs be the engineers of the future, or... try seeing if this outlandish bunch of ideas is true.

Yeah, the world has worked a wonderful turn of events when it's the INTJ getting stuff started and the ENFPs being conservators.

Who, in this story, decides truth?
 

Laurie

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Truth? About if a type combo is a disasterous combo? Surely you see that as a subjective idea. How could it hold 'truth' across the board at all?

It's not like the OP was balanced at all anyway.
 

the state i am in

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my entp friend and i have the most balanced process we could possibly have, i think. the interaction styles, in this case, really make sense (chart-the-course + get-things-going). i feel like the thinking process really takes advantage of all of our cognitive functions simultaneously. it's a silly phrase but the enps i know know trust that i have my eye on the prize in a way that they do not. the focus, concentration, depth of vision, gravity, discrimination (not in the bad way), etc. i recognize what is really there beyond talk and human busywork. the psyche, life, the universe, human history, religious life, finding purpose, art, societal needs, etc.

you both want to communicate bc you both recognize your visions are bigger than those of others, and so you have more to learn from each other.
 

sculpting

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I cant help but notice that the "INFJ/ENTP hands down the best combo" and the "ENFP + INTJ=disaster" thread both have the same number of posts-186.

There is some sort of hysterical irony in having these two threads side by side. I dunno...

It's like the ultimate in "away from pain" vs "towards pleasure" thinking that my entp makes fun of Te/Fi users for. The FeTi's are all falling in love and we FiTe's are down here finding flaws and disaster, before we are okay with falling in love.

yeah, we are up to 187!!! we're winning thanks to special K!!
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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I cant help but notice that the "INFJ/ENTP hands down the best combo" and the "ENFP + INTJ=disaster" thread both have the same number of posts-186.

There is some sort of hysterical irony in having these two threads side by side. I dunno...

It's like the ultimate in "away from pain" vs "towards pleasure" thinking that my entp makes fun of Te/Fi users for. The FeTi's are all falling in love and we FiTe's are down here finding flaws and disaster, before we are okay with falling in love.

yeah, we are up to 187!!! we're winning thanks to special K!!




I know, but ENTP/INFJ sounds like a more balanced combination than a ENFP/INTJ to me.
 

SillySapienne

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What's buggin you, Kalach? Been hurt by an ENFP?
I surmise the "issue" with Kalach is that he is all theory, and no, or incredibly little, experience.

Granted, his theoretical perspectives are often accurate, or insightful, at the very least, but without applying these theories, or weighing them against actual experience, well... they fall flat, and short.

Sorry, Kalach, I still have love for you, homie.

:hug:
 

SillySapienne

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I know, but ENTP/INFJ sounds like a more balanced combination than a ENFP/INTJ to me.
ENTP = Ne/Ti/Fe/Si

INFJ = Ni/Fe/Ti/Se

ENFP = Ne/Fi/Te/Si

INTJ = Ni/Te/Fi/Se

How in the hell is it more balanced?!!?

:huh:
 

SillySapienne

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it's a silly phrase but the enps i know know trust that i have my eye on the prize in a way that they do not. the focus, concentration, depth of vision, gravity, discrimination (not in the bad way), etc. i recognize what is really there beyond talk and human busywork. the psyche, life, the universe, human history, religious life, finding purpose, art, societal needs, etc.

you both want to communicate bc you both recognize your visions are bigger than those of others, and so you have more to learn from each other.
:worthy:

Hell yes, an INJ finally gets it!!!
 

the state i am in

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I know, but ENTP/INFJ sounds like a more balanced combination than a ENFP/INTJ to me.

i just see it as e5 injs are more dangerously fussy. and more intjs are e5s than infjs, so they're more hot-cold and afraid of getting hurt bc they are terrified of their own emotional vulnerabilities.

i feel caught in between both threads. in the entp/infj threads, also, most of the time it's male entps and female infjs. e5s can be way more sensitive when they care/invest than people expect, and being the male in the introverted role creates some weird social issues, at times, too. especially for wary e5 injs who see a lot of potential problems looming in the future. the balance of gender expectations is probably most effortless in entp male/infj female. enfp female and intj male makes a lot of sense, but i can see potential awkwardness/conflict over the male feeling a bit territorial, protective, problematizing, etc.

enfp females have a huge range and i've see them with intjs, entjs, infjs, intps, infps, and occasionally istjs. they're way more naturally in line with female gender expectations, so they pretty much date everybody. i find entp, intj, intp, and infp females to be far more focused and know/have a much better idea of what they want. which is also reassuring.
 

sculpting

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The inferior function is explicitly rejected by the dominant. .

Hmmm…

So I think you are incorrect regarding the “rejection of the inferior function” I think we reject our 8th function. For me that is Se. I’d say the inferior function is just neglected.

Although jung said this regarding sensation in Ne doms which explains why we think we use Se:
“Very often he will even use the word sensation. He does have sensations of course but is not guided by them as such; he uses them merely as starting points for his perceptions. He selects them by precocsious predilection. It is not the strongest sensation in the physiological sense that is accorded the chief value, but any sensation whatsoever whose value is enhanced by the intuitive’s unconscious attitude. In this way it may eventually come to acquire the chief value and to his mind it appears to be pure sensation.”


So to meta analyze the issue-from the perspective of these mysterious Ne/Si perceiving functions:

My Ne at first blantly ignored your Ni perception that the inferior functions had any effect at all. You are correct-there was no foundation in Si or any foreseeable Ne connection that would suggest these functions to play as significant a role as you mention. Te discards as insignificant.

Then, after much discussion, the role of Si as being somewhat conservative was revealed. This took a lot of time and thought-like a week of serious consideration. However-just as your Ni predicted, Si does play a role in ENFPs, even if somewhat instinctually. Thus Ni was PROVEN true.

What does my Si do? It stores it as a new rule. Rule: I’d like to ignore that Ni information as it doesn’t fit historically (Si) or connectively (Ne), however in the past (Si), Ni was correct, thus should be given fairly intense consideration, even if initially the observation seems disconnected and arbitrary.

This then will make Ne and Si look at the Ni observation and spend considerable time trying to understand it. Of course using their own toolkits to gather more data. Si-Is this something I have seen before? Am I absolutely certain? Can I find data to support this? Ne-How can I connect this or develop trends? If this is true I’d expect that A, B, C, and D would also be true. Are they true? Just for me, for everyone? This data would then be used to support the Ni perception

As for “Ni user rejects Ne options because they lack (or contradict chosen) immediate physical application” well my pet unicorn doesn’t really like INTJs anyways...
 

SillySapienne

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enfp females have a huge range and i've see them with intjs, entjs, infjs, intps, infps, and occasionally istjs
Yeah, we are not typists! ;)

they're way more naturally in line with female gender expectations, so they pretty much date everybody
:huh:

Say WHAT!?!?!?

Explain yourself more clearly, here, please, because I find both these statements inherently untrue and offensive.
 

Virtual ghost

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ENTP = Ne/Ti/Fe/Si

INFJ = Ni/Fe/Ti/Se

ENFP = Ne/Fi/Te/Si

INTJ = Ni/Te/Fi/Se

How in the hell is it more balanced?!!?

:huh:


Well as you proabably already know (since are NF) people are more than their functions order.

Also I think this because because of the fact that the INFJ is an F so the entire entire thing is more balanced. Since TP/FJ is more balanced since there is 1:1 ratio for "offensive tools" (T and J). While in ENFP/INTJ case that often is not the case. I mean it is harder to fine a balance of power that is needed in a relationship. (of course this depends on people and desires)



Also ENTP and INFJ as Fe users are more ..... I will call it "concerned" about the partner. While Fi is a little bit more selfish and self-absorbed in general.



This is just my hypothesis of course.
 

SillySapienne

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Fi's all about empathy baby, and once you find someone who has Fi-values that reflect or are harmonious with yours....

:wub:
 

Charmed Justice

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Also ENTP and INFJ as Fe users are more ..... I will call it "concerned" about the partner. While Fi is a little bit more selfish and self-absorbed in general.



This is just my hypothesis of course.
Could you elaborate on that AO? I keep hearing about how NFPs are generally more "selfish" and "self-absorbed" than Fe users, and I guess I'm having a hard understanding what is meant by that.
 

Thalassa

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Well as you proabably already know (since are NF) people are more than their functions order.

Also I think this because because of the fact that the INFJ is an F so the entire entire thing is more balanced. Since TP/FJ is more balanced since there is 1:1 ratio for "offensive tools" (T and J). While in ENFP/INTJ case that often is not the case. I mean it is harder to fine a balance of power that is needed in a relationship. (of course this depends on people and desires)



Also ENTP and INFJ as Fe users are more ..... I will call it "concerned" about the partner. While Fi is a little bit more selfish and self-absorbed in general.



This is just my hypothesis of course.


Fi is not necessarily more self-absorbed in love. Actually, the way Fi sees it sometimes, instead of following social convention or feeling a need to spread graciousness to the entire group, Fi's "selfishness" can mean that the Fi-user channels a very focused love into specific people - like lovers, close friends, family members - in an empathetic, devoted way. Fi love can actually be quite intense.

I think you mistake what Fi v. Fe even means. It's as though you're defining it as Fi = feelings for self and Fe = feelings for others, and that's not what it is. What you're saying about ENTP/INFJ v. ENFP/INTJ doesn't even sound logical to me.
 

SillySapienne

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Fi can definitely be more self-concerned, and I guess self-absorbed, but it's that we're self-reflective thinking about how things feel, how things are, how things ought to be.

Is Fi selfish?!?!

Hell no!!!

Fi is an intrinsic moral compass, it's the very definition of empathy.

We are all human beings with incredibly similar basic feelings and behaviors.

The more you know yourself, the more you understand others.

Fi is self awareness.
 
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