[INFP] INTJ needs help with INFP....

[Rezdawg1]

This woman has got me doing mental backflips! She is....I don't have a word for what she is....I can't stop thinking about her. I wish I had the balls to tell her how I feel. This is one of the things I hate about being INTJ, frozen in place...

 

[Litvyak]

This woman has got me doing mental backflips! She is....I don't have a word for what she is....I can't stop thinking about her. I wish I had the balls to tell her how I feel. This is one of the things I hate about being INTJ, frozen in place...

You couldn't possibly know how familiar that sounds.

If it cheers you up, I still can't stop thinking about her despite my confession months ago.
Oh, and despite the fact that I've been in a relationship in the time being. Guess we don't forget.

 

[Wiley45]

"She tells me she misses our "long, awesome" conversations"


Hmm. This seems pretty clear to me.

As an INFP who adores "long, awesome" platonic conversations with INTJ's, male or female, I wouldn't say the above comment is a clear sign that she's romantically interested. It really could go either way. Personally, I always "miss" conversations with N's when they're few and far between, because I enjoy them so much and they're a lot more rare than the normal S conversations I get in my daily life.

I'd be more inclined to think the physical stuff like hugs and the head on the shoulder shows she's possibly romantically interested, because I've never seen an INFP show physical affection in a trite way.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I'm a little amazed by the number of NFs saying "just ask her". I've always thought that the straightforward approach was favoured by the NTs and that NFs would prefer to be subtly romanced. (Bear in mind that when you instruct an NT to "just ask her", he will probably do it differently from an NF).

NFs: Are you really sure "just ask her" is the best advice? How would you actually react if someone you friend-zoned asked you to consider a romantic relationship? Would you really be able to maintain the platonic relationship as you did before? I have witnessed how my female INFJ and ENFP friends have grown distant from friends who "just asked them". I'm not saying that the OP is being friend-zoned of course, in fact I think he has a really good chance with her (unless he has been painting a rose-tinted picture of the scenario, which can sometimes happen to even the best of minds).

I suggest though, that rather than putting her in a position where her options are yes/no/maybe/i don't know (which is 25% chance of success and a 75% chance of a trip down awkward boulevard), he should be subtle and allow her space to play out the romantic possibilities more strongly in her head to increase his odds of success.

All the NF women (my favourite kind!) that I have been intimate with in a romantic, emotional level for a sustained period of time were my friends beforehand, and I'm pretty sure a couple of them thought of me as "just a really good friend". What worked for me was to spend time with them that is "ambiguous"- we would go out as friends and hang out and maybe do silly things, and we would end up in deep conversation somewhere we could be alone- the beach, a deserted playground, whatever. Lingering conversation, a little bit of physical contact (the subtle, accidentally-on-purpose kind when you're lying next to each other looking at the stars) and sustained, comfortable silence- and before you know it you're making out! Yay!

Sorry, I got carried away. I love romancing INFx's.

I'm with you, but, alas, I am no infp. I always shudder when people advise, "Just ask how she feels!" "Just tell her how you feel!" Where's the subtlety and fun in that? It just takes the malingering sweetness of all those mental wonderings and shoots the hell out of them; jolts them into a whole other realm which is not only not a natural flow, but ensures the relationship will definitely change in some way, just with the words having been spoken. I prefer a more organic, flowy interplay with a person, especially one I am attracted to. And feelings for NFs can be so vascillating anyway, that each day or each interaction can bring something new into play, so that even if she says, "No, I think of you as a friend," it doesn't mean she will necessarily think of you as a friend tomorrow. But I'm also sure that whatever you decide to do will be the right thing to do, and it will fall out how it's supposed to.

 

[WoodsWoman]

Has she expressed dissatisfaction with her current relationship? I know people I can have amazing conversations with, who I feel safe enough and comfortable enough with to express myself more physically with (like you description of the hugs).

This doesn't necessarily mean more - but could. If I was in a relationship that I was happy with it would depend on the amount of commitment invested in that relationship (actually married versus not, etc.). ----It comes down to if you are willing to risk take friendship is that is what is offered? If you are and will, go ahead. I faced such a situation and friendship was more important to both of us, and we each respect that deeply and so it stands.

Good luck.

 

[proteanmix]

Frankly, I'd be hesitant.

This woman is seeing someone? Isn't that a big ass red flag?

ETA: I'd kindly ask her what the deal is between her and her partner and why she seems to be emotionally involving herself with someone else.

If she wants a relationship with you, I'd require she'd exit the one she's already in.

ETA again: I don't understand the replies to this thread, unless people have skipped over the part where he said she's in a relationship. YOU ALL would be pissed as fuck if your partner were getting emotionally involved with someone else.

 

[Rezdawg1]

I would require that she exit the current one. I am at this point trying to get an idea about what is going on. Am I seeing things, picking up on signals that are not there? Please remember I am an INTJ and have little to no social skills, especially when it comes to flirtation.

 

[Litvyak]

Frankly, I'd be hesitant.
This woman is seeing someone? Isn't that a big ass red flag?

Perhaps I'm too liberal, but... no. That's definitely not a big ass red flag. Sure, it makes things harder, but it's no guarantee for anything. Wouldn't be the first time in history that a woman leaves her partner for someone else she has feelings for.

 

[Glycerine]

As an INFP who adores "long, awesome" platonic conversations with INTJ's, male or female, I wouldn't say the above comment is a clear sign that she's romantically interested. It really could go either way. Personally, I always "miss" conversations with N's when they're few and far between, because I enjoy them so much and they're a lot more rare than the normal S conversations I get in my daily life.

I'd be more inclined to think the physical stuff like hugs and the head on the shoulder shows she's possibly romantically interested, because I've never seen an INFP show physical affection in a trite way.

+1000. To say the least, it sounds like you guys have a good connection. However, I would tread lightly until she's single.

 

[proteanmix]

I would require that she exit the current one. I am at this point trying to get an idea about what is going on. Am I seeing things, picking up on signals that are not there? Please remember I am an INTJ and have little to no social skills, especially when it comes to flirtation.

Then I would say do not involve your heart and don't get your hopes up.

It really just seems like I'd take a hard look at this woman's willingness to deeply emotionally involve herself with someone else and appear to lead them on. She could be shopping around for another relationship before she gets out of the one she's in. She may be one of those kind of women who always likes to have a guy on hand.

But maybe I'm just not particularly optimistic about this, but this seems like a very familiar situation. When people are admonishing to "just ask her" yeah I'd ask her alright. I'd ask for an explanation of why she's seeking emotional intimacy outside of her romantic relationship and what about it is so unsatisfactory to her and yet she's not out of it.

Sorry to bust your bubble.

Perhaps I'm too liberal, but... no. That's definitely not a big ass red flag. Sure, it makes things harder, but it's no guarantee for anything. Wouldn't be the first time in history that a woman leaves her partner for someone else she has feelings for.

That's not a problem if she leaves him.

But she's not leaving, she deciding which outfit she likes the best and leading someone on in the process.

 

[Wiley45]

But maybe I'm just not particularly optimistic about this, but this seems like a very familiar situation. When people are admonishing to "just ask her" yeah I'd ask her alright. I'd ask for an explanation of why she's seeking emotional intimacy outside of her romantic relationship and what about it is so unsatisfactory to her and yet she's not out of it.

Are we completely sure she's seeking emotional intimacy outside of her current relationship? Is it possible that she respects the OP and enjoys his company/friendship but isn't seeking a romantic relationship with him or emotional fulfillment to replace the lack in her current relationship? After all, the OP admits he's unsure if she's actually sending signals, which is why he wants advice.

You bring up good points, and I think the INTJ should keep them in mind. However, if someone asked me the questions you posed when I was genuinely seeking friendship and some desperately needed "N" talk, I'd be really offended and probably would back way off out of anger or hesitancy to send the wrong signals again.

 

[proteanmix]

Are we completely sure she's seeking emotional intimacy outside of her current relationship? Is it possible that she respects the OP and enjoys his company/friendship but isn't seeking a romantic relationship with him or emotional fulfillment to replace the lack in her current relationship? After all, the OP admits he's unsure if she's actually sending signals, which is why he wants advice.

You bring up good points, and I think the INTJ should keep them in mind. However, if someone asked me the questions you posed when I was genuinely seeking friendship and some desperately needed "N" talk, I'd be really offended and probably would back way off out of anger or hesitancy to send the wrong signals again.

OK flip it around.

You have a bf or gf. You somehow stumble upon evidence of them being very emotionally intimate with another person. They've told them things you thought were only told to you, they're sharing details about themselves with one another. This isn't about "N" talk. Look at what this guy is saying:

This woman has got me doing mental backflips! She is....I don't have a word for what she is....I can't stop thinking about her.

I have told her that I hope some of the things I am telling her about do not scare, offend or cross any lines. Her reply, "I am not scared of you,offended or anything."

She told me she thinks I am fascinating and inscrutable.

We both reacted like teenagers. Guilty looks, stop talking, jump up from sitting positions, the whole nine yards.

our e-mails have gotten longer and more in depth. She tells me she misses our "long, awesome" conversations.

They're becoming more and more emotionally intimate. Would you be OK with your partner sharing that kind of intimacy with another person?

Rezdawg1, I don't want to assume anything, but I am assuming your friend is involved with a guy. If things work out between you two, she leaves her current bf and you two get involved, would you be OK with her acting in this way with another guy?

All I'm saying is, if you're starting to have feelings for her, make sure she's available first. If you're satisfied with being friends with her and she is with you, I'd still kinda let the boyfriend know I'm not trying to come between him and his gf. Just be careful and take care of your own heart first and foremost.

 

[Wiley45]

OK flip it around.

You have a bf or gf. You somehow stumble upon evidence of them being very emotionally intimate with another person. They've told them things you thought were only told to you, they're sharing details about themselves with one another. This isn't about "N" talk...

They're becoming more and more emotionally intimate. Would you be OK with your partner sharing that kind of intimacy with another person?

I understand what you're saying, but I guess it seems to me like the INTJ's description is simply his perspective on the matter. It could be an emotionally charged situation, or it could be a situation where the INTJ feels a lot more strongly about the INFP than the INFP feels for the INTJ.

Did the INFP really jump up and act embarrassed as if they'd gotten "caught" hugging, or was that the INTJ's perspective because he likes her? Or, did she jump away from him because she had a display of emotion for a friend but didn't want to give the wrong impression to other people and realized it might look weird?

None of the other stuff she said seems overly romantic or even too emotional to me. My NT friends are fascinating and amazing, and I tell them, because I genuinely mean it. Doesn't mean I'm in love with them. I also would respond in a similar way to a friend who was worried about offending me or crossing lines, and I wouldn't be implying anything emotional or romantic. I've told plenty of people, "I'm not afraid of you," or "I'm not offended easily," and I didn't have sexual attraction or romantic feelings for them. This especially goes for INTJ's, as my INTJ friends and acquaintances have a greater tendency to scare and offend certain people. I find them completely interesting and want them to feel free to speak their minds. This is also part of why I enjoy talking in depth with INTJ's, and would carry on lengthy conversations or correspondence. I only feel like it's dangerous emotionally (for someone who's otherwise committed) if you get to the point where you're talking multiple times a day, thinking about the other person constantly, going to them for personal advice that replaces what your SO should/used to give you, constantly complaining about your current relationship, etc, or maybe some combination of the above. A good friendship can easily cross the line into something emotionally inappropriate, but it doesn't have to, and doesn't always.

Again, I agree that the OP should be careful with his own feelings about this girl. It's good advice. If she does like you, you don't want to jump into a huge emotional attachment while she's still with somebody else. I guess I just don't know if there's enough evidence to convince me that she's actually interested in more than a friendship. Like I said, I really think it could go either way, and it's hard to tell.

 

[Litvyak]

You're quick to judge a stranger, she could have tons of reasons for her behavior.
I think "misleading someone" is an exaggeration in this case.

That's not a problem if she leaves him.
But she's not leaving, she deciding which outfit she likes the best and leading someone on in the process.

Such decisions do not come easy. If she would leave her partner instantly in 2 minutes, that would be a (bad) sign of superficialness.

 

[Chunes]

Talk about it. If you two have a connection where you don't have to censor any of what you say then it is worth bringing up, and worth 'waiting' for a time when perhaps both of you are available.

This talk about 'harming' the friendship is bunk. She was never your friend if she gets bent out of shape due to a simple question. It might help if you express your reverence for her current relationship before you ask, though. Still, if you really have the connection you say, she will be receptive to at least defining your relationship more concretely.

 

[proteanmix]

I understand what you're saying, but I guess it seems to me like the INTJ's description is simply his perspective on the matter. It could be an emotionally charged situation, or it could be a situation where the INTJ feels a lot more strongly about the INFP than the INFP feels for the INTJ.

Well he's acting according to his perspective of the situation. And if he has stronger feelings for this person, then even more reason to be smart about this.

Or, did she jump away from him because she had a display of emotion for a friend but didn't want to give the wrong impression to other people and realized it might look weird?

Yeah and I think the fact they jumped up is indicative of something. You don't feel or act guilty when you're innocent. Once again, if her boyfriend walked in and saw it would that change the situation any?

None of the other stuff she said seems overly romantic or even too emotional to me. I always feel like my NT friends are fascinating and amazing, and I tell them, because I genuinely mean it. Doesn't mean I'm in love with them. I also would respond in a similar way to a friend who was worried about offending me or crossing lines, and wouldn't mean anything overly emotional or romantic about it. I've told people constantly, "I'm not afraid of you," or "I'm not offended easily," and I didn't have sexual attraction or romantic feelings for them.

Re NT friends: are they of the opposite sex and involved with someone else?
Re responses: You confirm the nature of the relationship, which this person has not done. You've done the right thing and been very clear and upfront about your feelings.

Again, I agree that the OP should be careful, because if she does like you, you don't want to jump into a huge emotional attachment while she's still with somebody else. But I just don't know if there's enough evidence to convince me that she's actually interested in more than a friendship. Like I said, I really think it could go either way, and it's hard to tell.

My take home point through all this is just don't get emotionally involved, specifically romantically, with someone who is not available.

 

[Wiley45]

Yeah, talk about it with her if you like, but just um... try to do it gently and with some grace. It's the lack of those things that could cause a problem or this so-called "harm." At least, it would be for me as an INFP. INTJ's aren't really known for their gentleness and grace.

 

[proteanmix]

You're awfully quick to judge a stranger, she could have tons of reasons for her behavior.
I think "misleading someone" is an exaggeration in this case.

OK, give me some examples of what you would consider misleading someone so I can know where your thoughts are about this.

I'm not judging anyone, I'm just not jumping on the Romance Bandwagon and being a bit critical about the situation. What I'm saying is not outside of the bounds of reality or even highly unlikely. These would be things I'd be considering if I were Rezdawg1's shoes. I'd wonder about the state of her relationship with her boyfriend and wonder why she's getting more emotionally intimate with me. And they are becoming emotionally intimate, I think that's very clear.

Such decisions do not come easy. If she would leave her partner instantly in 2 minutes, that would be a (bad) sign of superficialness.

True they are not. I see what you're saying; drive before you buy. I'd still like to know where the boyfriend fits into this equation and if she's happy in that relationship.

 

[Wiley45]

Re responses: You confirm the nature of the relationship, which this person has not done. You've done the right thing and been very clear and upfront about your feelings.

(I didn't say, "I don't have sexual or romantic attraction toward you," because that would just be weird, and it wasn't what we were discussing at the time. I'm saying that I've spoken almost the exact same phrases this INFP girl used, and I didn't mean anything remotely romantic or sexually charged.)

 

[Litvyak]

OK, give me some examples of what you would consider misleading someone so I can know where your thoughts are about this.

To "mislead a guy" means to willingly manipulate him with empty promises or other forms of verbal-nonverbal communication for whatever reason, at least in my dictionary.
I don't see any proof that this would be the case.

What I'm saying is not outside of the bounds of reality or even highly unlikely.

Of course they're not "outside the bounds of reality", but I think there is no evidence in rezdawg's stories that would support your theory. It's one possible theory of a hundred others, and I don't find this particular one to be among the more likely or constructive ones.

These would be things I'd be considering if I were Rezdawg1's shoes. I'd wonder about the state of her relationship with her boyfriend and wonder why she's getting more emotionally intimate with me.

Fair enough, it's OK to be suspicious in such a situation. But being suspicious != suspecting that she's possibly "one of those kind of women who always likes to have a guy on hand". Perhaps she is, perhaps she's not, you don't have any more evidence for that than for, say, that she likes basketball or astronomy.

Here's another theory: she feels insecure, because she is "emotionally bonding" with someone despite of being in a relationship, and it's really hard for her to decide if the whole "new guy"-thing is worth it. Being an FP, she's trapped in an emotional vortex, and she doesn't know what to do.

^ I don't think this is true either, it's just another possibility, just as likely as yours. Or even more, since insecurity is an FP trait while misleading people is not.