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[INFJ] When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

March

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I liked your post. This is of interest because from my perspective, as an Fi dom, you ignoring that emotion is the same as not taking care of your emotional health. I sense your inner emotional construct and will realize you are ignoring it. Now granted, to you it's not pressing and indeed, 80% of it is transient and not of huge import. But when you ignore it, I can sense you're not tending to it and it feels like you have a crying baby in there that you're not paying attention to. (cred to Seymour for the crying baby analogy!)

So, just sharing that so you can see it from my vantage point too. That's the kind of "white noise" that I hear all the time. Like a radio always playing. :)

I can imagine. And it probably triggers the same kinds of debates you get around parenting. ;) Some people are into attachment parenting so they are very responsive to any crying, while others are into teaching babies how to self-soothe so they just focus on the environment being conducive to happy babies. Although, I assume like with babies, if someone were to tell me 'Dude, your internal baby is crying and the sound is distressing to me, can you go do something about that?' (in a non-judgemental way that shows they understand that crying is what babies do a lot of the time), I'd be happy to oblige.
 

PeaceBaby

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You presented this very diplomatically, but I'm tempted to dare someone to say that to me right about now.

Rather than pull the trigger on this, can I just give you a hug instead?

:hug:
 

Starry

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@Southern Cross, thank you for you patience and thoughtfulness in these discussions. I appreciate reading your posts.

You presented this very diplomatically, but I'm tempted to dare someone to say that to me right about now.

Off topic - but you don't do the above (what was presented in Z Buck's quote.) I mean, I'll happily pull any trigger anyone wants me to in this thread but I can't help you on this one.

To suggest this isn't somewhat common though with regards to NFJs...this I'm not ready to sign off on. And I don't necessarily think it has anything to do with flattery.
 

PeaceBaby

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Just got in from grocery shopping. Mind in the clouds, came up with the following:

Ji highly manages the internal world in response to powerlessness / insecurity with the outside world.

Je highly manages the outside world in response to powerlessness / insecurity with the inner world.

ie "I cannot control what the outside world does but at least I can manage my response to it inside."
and similarly, "I cannot control what the inside world does but at least I can manage my response to it outside."

For me personally, it means I massively manage my inner world, process difficult emotions on my own daily, examine how I can better avoid problems in the outside world and try to create systems to address this. For my husband (to use a full Je dom example) it means to massively manage the external world logistically, since this avoids inner world distress. For him, this includes both objects (to a greater extent) and people (to a lesser extent). Switch that for Fe.

If my inner world is tidy, the external world can be messy and it doesn't affect me much. For him, if the external world is tidy the inner world doesn't affect him much. But, when you mess with my outer world in a way I didn't predict, it rattles the inner world and gives me work to do. For him, when the outer world gets messed with, he just pushes and shoves the outer world back. I retreat from the outer realm, but he gives it attitude. But mess with his inner space ... make him doubt his sense of self, it really messes with him. (His last job, those EI people spouting the EI crap, they really manipulated his self-concept. It's not that he can't benefit from the soft skills at times, but boy. Anyway, story for another day.)

Similarly, you mess with my inner space, I will push back hard and I will slap the internal world around. Mostly mine and sometimes yours too.

And here we are. This is so distressing to INFJs because it messes with the inner realm. Perhaps you feel powerless to push back in there. The work one would do in there is just so messy in your inner space that it's especially not fair to ask you to do it in this venue. And to stop me from poking it, you give me back some boundaries to say, "Hey, I'm not comfortable" and basically put me in a tier where I can have less capability to affect that inner space.

When an INFP is faced with an inner space turmoil, it's not easy either. Heck, it's like torture. But the work is known to us and we are familiar with having to manage that space all the time. The same corollary holds true for the opposite no doubt. Like March said, if she goes and has a snack, a cup of tea, often times the attention to the outer has managed the inner. Magic!

I think overall, INFP's have more affect and control over the outer world than they realize, and INFJ's have more affect and control over the inner world than they realize. In some key way our approach to managing these areas is in utter opposition and this is the cause of our clash. But I can't articulate the feeling of it in words. Both our types can tend to feel more powerless than we are, and tend to throw up our hands in a powerless way. I want to say, you have affect there, you are not powerless inside. Just like I can stand up and push the outer world around, you can do the same inside too. You do not have to blame the vectors who affect the inner world for disturbing it. Just like I do not have to blame the outer vectors for messing with me.

Take my example above. I was angry at having my inner space disturbed by someone basically suggesting if I did not do what they wanted, I would be deemed an inconsiderate person. SO WHAT, eh? That emotion is not about her, it's about me. Just like, if you don't want your world disturbed by me saying I see something that's more hidden to you, that emotion is not about me. It's about you.

There's a universality to this that's very elegant.
 

yeghor

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Indeed. By not making an effort to look for the cause, you are affecting my internal landscape with your emotions. You are making the proverbial "white noise" for me and I cannot focus on much else when I sense heavy, strong emotions inside you that are brushed off, patently avoided or denied. All that's necessary is to say, "Yes, I feel something, not sure what" but to have it denied is just difficult since you're sending out all these signals that interfere with the smooth functioning of my feeling-radar.

What causes you to be irritated with other people's strong emotions? What feelings do they invoke in you? Fear, anger etc.? Is there a relation there with childhood and parenting style?

It does seem to me that Fe types get very good though at bouncing blame all around to everyone else, to varying degrees of course.

No more Mr.Nice Guy ;)

And how do you discern intent? Can you flesh that out for me?

Experience based on past incidents where I have been tricked/screwed up over, which have accumulated into Ni patterns over time...When a similar pattern is recognized, my inside voice tells me that something is off...I usually question to other side and if I sense that he/she is being evasive in answering and clarifying his/her intent I take that as a sign of lack of goodwill/reciprocity...

It also depends on the rapport of the individual and the context that the criticism/blame is voiced out...There's some previous discussion on this from page 108 on...

As for the rest ... I find it interesting that you feel INFP's are less likely to be hurt. We are frequently injured in an emotionally broken world that doesn't pay much attention to emotional health. We learn that the world really doesn't value emotions like we do from a very young age and we naturally turn to the internal processing of them since we are wired that way. Me personally, I historically have exuded very little negative emotion so that it cannot be used in any way against me or to influence other people into action. I dislike emotions being used as tools.

I thought they can wield/control their emotions much better than others therefore would be less susceptible to other people's emotional surges/outbursts...I may have been mistaken...perhaps INFPs are hurt more by lack of (any kind of) emotional feedback so in such cases they try invoking emotions in others? I don't really know...

OTOH, why the need to keep emotions (safe?) inside...? Have externally expressed emotions been used against you (to humiliate you etc.) in the past? Does that have something to do with your childhood and your parenting?

You just don't see the sanitation happening. I've personally been very hurt on this forum, but you'd never know that from my posts. In fact, when you assumed that I must not have encountered difficult people in my life (from an earlier transaction between us) that was fairly insulting too actually. Not hurtful, just rather invalidating to make that assumption.

Because I am expecting empathy but cannot find any from a person who claims to have encountered difficult people in her life...From my perspective, you do not recognize that INFJs here may also have been victimized/traumatized in the past...You are inclined to see them as tyrants...

I can understand you are trying to sanitize your comments...the only suggestion I can make is to give us some Si material, the story that has caused you this hurt...I cannot validate/soothe you because I don't know what exactly happened to you...It feels to me that you are expecting from INFJs some kind of confession of being bad so that you can feel good about yourself...Why you tied you feeling being good to INFJs' being bad, that I cannot comprehend...Both can be bad or good, they do not depend on each other...they are not related...

We often leave Fi judgements as balls in the air until real-life points us in-the-moment to adapt. We have to trust that our Ne will help us adapt.

What can INFJs here to do to make themselves more comprehensible to a Fi user? What can we do to expedite the process? What kind of interaction/reasoning style do Fi users respond better to? Some tools to employ other then analogies?
 

Amargith

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:thinking: Very interesting. So how do Pe and Pi factor in? Not to mention their rank order in preference, for that matter...
 

PeaceBaby

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:thinking: Very interesting. So how do Pe and Pi factor in? Not to mention their rank order in preference, for that matter...

Yes, as [MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION] said, type to type it's potentially more connected. The right-angled nature of Ji dom and Je aux makes it harder to articulate. I can feel it, can't put it into words yet. Take a whack at it if something comes to mind.
 

Z Buck McFate

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To suggest this isn't somewhat common though with regards to NFJs...this I'm not ready to sign off on. And I don't necessarily think it has anything to do with flattery.

But I think the contention this is raising sorta revolves around the sudden emphasis of this "flattery" element.

***

I'm going to go ahead and admit that I think that anyone who neee-e-e-eeds this particular definition of “doorslam” (with the added qualifier that it’s why ‘most’ INFJs back away) to be declared true in this thread has got issues of their own. If it’s simply an observation without any emotional investment in it being true, then why would there be this urgency for others to agree? Why wouldn't hearing “yeah, sometimes it happens” be enough (which has been said, repeatedly)? I think the emotional investment in needing to establish something stronger than “yeah, sometimes it happens” is that people who regularly repel INFJs would get to believe there’s nothing overbearing or unpleasant about themselves. I think that having a whole group of people systematically run away from you is sorta like the universe providing you with unsolicited nohari results, and I really can’t shake the feeling that certain individuals who routinely drive INFJs away want to “prove” there’s something wrong with INFJs so that they can dismiss the nohari-ish information the universe is throwing at them.

So….imagine I started a thread positing that^ idea, asserted that it’s true more often than not and pursued it ad nauseum. Wouldn't it look like I was trying really hard to make something ‘true’? Like I was employing some kind of semantic smoke and mirrors- all in the hopes of distracting myself and everyone else from how bad my own shit stinks?

All I know is that the urgency in this thread to ‘make’ the assertion ‘true’ has a very foul odor to it.

I suspect the actual truth is somewhere exactly in between those things, as the universe tends to distribute blame and the projection of flaws equally amongst all ‘types’. Not only are there just as many controlling and manipulative people (probably without even knowing it- who may even see themselves as fairness incarnate) out there who want to convince INFJs they’re backing away because of their own neurosis (and not because there’s anything unacceptable going on at their own end of the interaction :fullload: ) as there are INFJs who are backing away exclusively because they can’t handle any mirror that doesn't tell them they *are* the fairest in the land :sombrero:- but I’m inclined to think the truth is that there’s usually some combination thereof going on.

And the thing is- I think that a great many NFJs actually already know the truth is somewhere in the middle- and the reason they back away is because of an utter inability to nail down any certainty one way or the other. Most other types feel *way* more comfortable plowing forward when they catch a whiff of unbalanced power dynamics- I think that INFJs are exceptionally sensitive to it whilst having the least amount confidence that we know we’re Right about the gut feelings we get. I think that probably more doorslams than not are because the INFJ has a gut feeling they can’t get rid of, whilst being totally and completely unsure about whether it really is the other person or if it’s them- and figuring out where and how to draw a boundary starts looking like one of Gödel's theorems. I concede that a lot of that is the idealism- and being unwilling to lay down the law unless we know it’s a special caliber of *fair* that will make the heavens open up to release singing angels and giggling cherubs sliding down sunbeams- but also a lot of it is just total lack of some internal baseline to refer to when angel/cherub fairness can’t be reached.


So I'm wondering if maybe the argument here that should be made is about how to rebalance unequal power in a positive way (ie not doorslamming), not whether or not power needs redistribution.

I think *a lot* of it comes down to this. I think a lot of INFJs *sense* an unequal power distribution and are so in-the-dark about whether it’s actually there or not that they think “oh fuck it” and just back away. A lot of it is probably the idealism and an unwillingness to be assertive if we can’t nail down an understanding that seems fair enough- but like I said, a lot of it too is just really having no baseline to refer to when idealism can’t be achieved.
 

cafe

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Sometimes for me, it's feeling like I cannot give the other person what they need that might make me back off. It doesn't mean their needs are unreasonable or illegitimate or invalid. I just don't have the ability to meet them or maybe I could but I would find doing so disruptive in a significant way that I feel would make it hard for me to meet my current obligations.

If someone has a communication style in which they need a lot of pushback, I find that distressing and I will disengage. If someone is having issues that completely befuddle and distress me, I'm probably going to back away. I'm not a therapist. I'm not an addictions counselor. I dislike high-conflict situations.

They're not bad or evil or whatever. I'm just not the girl for the job.

If it makes someone feel better to believe I've got issues, fine. I do have issues. I'm not going to argue with that and they are welcome to have opinions about what those things are. But that doesn't mean I don't get to make choices about with whom I engage.
 

Werebudgie

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I am interested to hear more about this. Can you expand on it?

In response to me writing:

As an INFJ in a relationship with an INFP, I find the above quite accurate to my experience with Fi-dom in many ways.

At first I didn't realize what was going on but by now I can sense it for what it is: It feels like this ongoing quietly (subtly) aggressive push push push push and it can be really disorienting and draining for me. The worst of it is when that push if for me to see my own self, my actions, etc through their eyes - a profound disorientation for me.

So hmmm, expand on it. I can try. I've been thinking about it a lot lately inside myself. This turned out to be really long.

I have a concrete example that's been on my mind because it happened recently. This is part of a much broader/larger pattern in our lives and interactions. And I'm much more self-aware now about this stuff than I was at the start of this relationship.

Context: One ongoing struggle in my life is to really trust the information my perception gives me. Call it Ni-Se perception, with Se in service to Ni. I get a LOT of really really good "underneath consciousness" information about the reality around me via this perception. I have a lot of analytical data showing the accuracy of this perception because over and over it happens that what my Ni-Se picks up shows itself visibly in the external world in a way others can easily see. But that comes later. In me, Ni-Se often picks up what is, at the time, relatively well hidden). Anyway, despite knowing the accuracy of this Ni-Se information, I still struggle to trust it when it happens.

Ni-Se transmits information to my consciousness in a particular language and the cognitive meaning isn't always obvious to my conscious mind. I often get Ni-Se information in body-gut sense, in general metaphor, in visual images, and occasionally even in sense-based metaphor.

Example: Last week, my partner came home and my Ni-Se perception told me there was something wrong that she was bringing into the shared space. I didn't know that at the time, I just had perception with no analytical consciousness of what it meant. I responded physically, according to her - apparently I had a "look on my face" - that's what she told me.

My own internal experience of the situation was a faint feel of off-ness when she came through the door and I was in the other room, then a moderately strong feeling of repulsion from a smell on her clothing when she came in. In itself, the smell wasn't so bad, but I was repelled. Later, I realized that this was a sense-metaphor: "Something doesn't smell right here." At the time, I was just receiving this information.

Her response to whatever was going on was to say that there was something wrong in the dynamic between us. If we were going to discuss it, she wanted us both to discuss what was wrong in our lives and/or inner selves that could be contributing to what she said was a mutual dynamic. She then focused, as she very often does, on what might be wrong in/with me that was creating this. I had to push back to get her to talk about what was going on with her (and there was a very obvious source of off-ness in her experience that day but she wanted me to focus on what was supposedly wrong in/with me because in her framework, her this was a mutual dynamic). The whole discussion and situation felt increasingly more and more unpleasant and painfully off to me.

In this discussion, she told me that the minute she saw the "look on my face" she knew things were bad between us. I scanned my internal landscape and tried to pinpoint what that look may have been about. I homed in on the smell. That wasn't the source, but it is a clear clue to my perception. I mentioned the smell.

She just brushed it aside. She said that wasn't relevant (paraphrasing here). She said she already knew what that look on my face was about and it wasn't a smell or whatever I was trying to talk about. When I said that it felt to me like she was dismissing something important for me, she said that whatever I might be feeling inside, I can't see my own face and I don't know what I was projecting with my expression.

She brought this situation up again the other day, the "look on my face" in that interaction and her supposed correct knowledge of what it was really about (not what it was really about for me). She brought this up as part of a communication to me that I should adjust my perception and response in an upcoming situation that she thought might invoke the same response from me.

Again I protested that she was dismissing what had actually been going on. And again, this time even more strongly, she said that I don't see my own face and don't know what I project because I can't see it.

She presented her experience of the look on my face as if she can directly see an objective truth that I can't see. But that's not accurate. She interprets what she sees on my face through her filters. This is just how her info-processing system works, she has Fi-Si filters. We've discussed it. But in interactions like this, the subjective nature of her interpretation goes invisible in the discussion and she presents her subjective assessments and conclusions as if she has direct access to some objective truth that I (in this case literally) cannot see.

-----------------------------------

In the past (and still a part of me does this), I would have initially accepted her analysis. In this case, based on the true fact that I certainly cannot see my own face in times like this. I would have assumed she was onto something that I was unaware of, and looked critically at myself, asking myself what I project into the world and looking to her for more "information" about what this is so I could be more "aware" of what I do.

But I now know enough about this pattern that I don't all the way go there anymore. It's a big struggle for me, though.

She has a practice of stating her assessments and conclusions with a great deal of force and confidence. Push push push. Even when she's incorrectly "connecting the dots" (her phrase) based on Fi-Si or Fi-Si-Te, even when she's wrong, she still does this. We've actually talked about it. At the time, she believes she's correct, believes it wholeheartedly at the time, and if she later learns she was incorrect, she just pivots to that as if nothing happened. And continues forcefully pushing her assessments and perceptions as correct the next time around.

She has consistently misunderstood me. We've talked about that as well. She says she has a database of experiences (Si) that tells her how people act and what things mean when people say or do them. It's based on an accumulation of past experiences in her life. It's a more efficient way of understanding reality than the perception-heavy, multi-layered, information and context-rich approach I take to understanding any situation.

When she's correct, she can be stunningly correct. She can conclude accurate facts based on what I see as minimal information. But she can also jump to stunningly incorrect assessments and conclusions. And she does that a lot with me. This has been obvious from the start. I don't quite fit into the Si map from the rest of her life. And she takes close to forever to actually incorporate each little tiny piece of how I don't fit her existing database of meaning,, and adjust her understanding accordingly. And I'm beginning to see that some of her Si map about me specifically is distorted as well, and so begins to build on itself in that distortion.

In the meantime, she pushes her assessments and conclusions - including assessments and conclusions about me, about what I am doing etc - as truth even when she's wrong. And when I object, she calls on Te-inf to find some plausible argument to support what she says is happening.

-----------------------------------

This may actually connect to another part of your post in a discussion with someone else.

It does seem to me that Fe types get very good though at bouncing blame all around to everyone else, to varying degrees of course.

I have a particular pattern with this that may illuminate somehow. I think it's specific to Ni-Fe-Ti in me. Think of it as a series of steps or phases in my response:

1. When something feels "off" and there is a clash between my Ni perceptual landscape (or Ni-Se perception) and the external material Fe legitimizes in my consciousness, my first move is to take in the external Fe material, assume it's correct, and hold myself responsible for whatever is not right. This phase can last hours, days, weeks, months, even years.

2. As I hold this external material deeply inside myself over time, it often begins to feel really bad - feel in the sense of gut-level, visceral, sense-perception kind of "feel" (not emotion.)

3. Things that feel this way do so because they de-center me from Ni and Ni-Se perception - my own organic perceptual field.

4. In response to the visceral feel (again, not emotion, but rather sense-perception feel) that develops as I hold the Fe-legitimized material inside myself, Ti activates. Ti begins to deconstruct the external material using my Ni perceptual field as a reference point. It's a painstaking process requiring a LOT of data and fine-grained analysis.

At stage 4, you might well see me "bouncing blame all around to everyone else." This is a corrective, a balance, to what I have already done, which is take on way too much responsibility for everything given the Fe dynamic.
 

Tiltyred

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Peacebaby, tap your toe inside your shoe.
 

Starry

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But I think the contention this is raising sorta revolves around the sudden emphasis of this "flattery" element.

^^yah I'll just say that I do not see this 'flattery' thing as it pertains to the INFJ. ENFJs...maybe...sometimes. But the thought of 'flattery' and 'INFJ' together in the same concept seems absurd to me really. (<-and this is actually regardless of health from my perspective.)
 

Eilonwy

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I’m not sure exactly where the definition of “doorslam” changed then, because the thread didn’t start with that definition?

I can't say if the thread itself started with that definition, but, as for the discussion revolving around [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION], that was the definition of doorslam that he was trying to discuss. It took until now for that to be determined because of a lot of confusion and misunderstanding. And since [MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION] brought that part of the discussion back to life, that was the definition that made the most sense to discuss.

I believe you that, apparently, at some point that’s what other people here were referring to (exclusively- and the ‘peculiar’ part, to me, seems that the rest of us were just supposed to ‘know’ to completely ignore all the ways in which “doorslam” generally means something broader…..but in fairness, there are a couple people whose posts I can’t handle reading at all, so maybe I missed something).
As far as I can tell, no one expected anyone to just 'know'. That definition has been stated several times, both in the old discussion and in this new one. But it seems that quite a few people (including myself) missed something, because, even though it was repeated several times, and restated to be made clearer, questions as to what a doorslam was kept coming up.

And yeah, if we’re excluding instances from the term “doorslam” where it’s a valid and healthy choice to discontinue interaction….that changes a lot of things. I keep hearing insinuation (whether it’s still there or not) that INFJs only “think” they’re feeling distressed because someone else is overbearing, but the “truth” (the “INFJ blindspot”) is that we simply don’t like information that isn’t flattering and we tell ourselves some story (e.g: about how the other person is “overbearing”) so that we can dismiss the information. <- If absolutely no one here is insinuating that, then yeah, I’ve got the wrong impression.
The definition wasn't being offered as 'truth', but as a topic for discussion in order to determine if it was true or not, and why. But the discussion never got to that point due to misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

My first thought is that there’s a slight difference, in that defense mechanisms are something that kick in to protect the ego from the stress/pain/fear of feeling unlovable/unacceptable. Whereas I’d think these ‘blind spots” are more about something an entire type (healthy or not) is inclined to have a hard time seeing. But then, each ‘type’ is going to have some common defense mechanisms, so maybe. :shrug: My point in that, though, was that these blind spots will necessarily only get worse in hostile environments- which is precisely why I feel like this discussion you’re trying to raise in this thread is like trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it (focusing on the ‘liquid’ quality of it).
So, the discussion is not worth having because it's too contentious? Is it more contentious than some other topics discussed on this forum, such as misogyny, or everyday sexism? Is there no way to have a civil discussion of difficult topics?

Regarding the rest- I’m not going to continue that conversation in this thread. I feel like a lot of the things you’re saying are things I already know. I do know that I’ve already noticed quite a few tendencies in INFJs I know (that have annoyed me), and I have had realizations about seeing these things in myself. I’d see NFJ friends do something, have some theory about why they did it- and it always makes me realize that I know this because it’s something I do too. Discussing it would involve being open about certain insecurities, revealing vulnerabilities and weak spots- all of which I’m capable of. But I do not think it’s a good idea to reveal these things in certain company, in this thread, perhaps even in this forum (until the day when it’s possible to have a discussion and limit the people who can see it). I have my reasons- which I will not list here, if only because it would be unkind- to believe it would fall more on the ‘enabling’ end of the spectrum. I’m not even saying I know I’m right about this- I’m just saying the feeling is too strong to ignore how much of a very real possibility it is.
Not joining in the discussion is a valid choice. No one is being forced to discuss anything they don't want to discuss, or do anything they don't want to do. But does that mean that the discussion shouldn't even be had?

I think it’s great you’ve had some epiphany- I just don’t think that same epiphany for other INFJs is really hiding around the corner here as much as you seem to think it is? [At least I’m getting the impression you think it is…it feels to me like you’re pushing for others to follow you....in this thread. If I’m wrong about that, I apologize. ]
Okay, we can call it an epiphany. That works for me. And, yes, I'm enthusiastic about what I learned, and I can see how that enthusiasm can look like pushiness. And I broke my own rule of not generalizing to all INFJs several times, for which I apologize. I'll keep my posts to my own experiences and stop generalizing from now on. But, if I'm pushing for others to follow me, it seems that some of them have had no qualms about pushing back. So, I'm not sure that there's a problem here. Is pushing for a different kind of discussion against forum rules? No one is being forced to read my posts, and perhaps there are people who are interested in what I have to say, the way I'm saying it. I would hope that I'm not being told that my pov is no longer welcome just because it's changed or makes some people uncomfortable.
 

Z Buck McFate

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I can't say if the thread itself started with that definition, but, as for the discussion revolving around Mane, that was the definition of doorslam that he was trying to discuss. It took until now for that to be determined because of a lot of confusion and misunderstanding. And since yeghor brought that part of the discussion back to life, that was the definition that made the most sense to discuss.


As far as I can tell, no one expected anyone to just 'know'. That definition has been stated several times, both in the old discussion and in this new one. But it seems that quite a few people (including myself) missed something, because, even though it was repeated several times, and restated to be made clearer, questions as to what a doorslam was kept coming up.

It seems like there are a couple things going on here, and to make this even more farcical- I’m not even reading a lot of the posts.

There’s #1: in the context of discussing this with mane, “doorslam” is to mean (exclusively) an INFJ backing out of a relationship because they can’t handle criticism and they don’t want to accept information that isn’t flattering. Where someone is too overbearing/controlling- feeling entitled to dictate reality relentlessly (or at least relentlessly enough that the INFJ is too exhausted to keep up/defend him/herself)….that’s completely different and it’s a valid choice to walk away from that.

And #2: whenever an INFJ backs away from someone, it’s almost always because they can’t handle information that isn’t flattering. They may say it’s because there’s something overbearing/controlling about the person, they may say the person just seems ‘incompatible’ and communication has become too difficult….they probably even believe this excuse, noticing details that support their rationalization and dismissing details that don’t support it….but really what’s going on is that the INFJ can’t handle any information that isn’t flattering.

If #1 is, in fact, what’s going on- then yes, I’m pretty much wandering around in here aimlessly carrying a torch yelling “WHAT DO WE WANT? INFJ JUSTICE!! WHEN DO WE WANT IT? NAO!!” at shadows. I won’t lie, it’s a distinct possibility.

To be perfectly clear, you don't see any of #2 being asserted by anyone here?

The definition wasn't being offered as 'truth', but as a topic for discussion in order to determine if it was true or not, and why. But the discussion never got to that point due to misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

Just out of curiosity, if INFJs here had calmly responded "no, I don't relate to that or see a whole lot of truth in that," do you think that would have been accepted? It's possible there's so much past frustration with this thread and with certain members that it's carrying over for me- but I do have a hard time believing 'no' would have actually been listened to, I'm guessing that would have just encouraged more 'explaining' how we're only kidding ourselves.

So, the discussion is not worth having because it's too contentious? Is it more contentious than some other topics discussed on this forum, such as misogyny, or everyday sexism? Is there no way to have a civil discussion of difficult topics?

It isn't about whether or not "contentious" is okay. My point was that trying to point out blind spots/defense mechanisms in contentious environments is rather counterproductive, and can actually only make the blind spots worse (because it makes people defensive). It's a point I'd been dropping here and there since the beginning of the thread. There's something about this thread that's kinda like seeing someone try to fix a flat tire by putting a band-aid on the leak.

It’s just my two cents on (maybe) why you’re not getting any bites and why people are actually pushing back.


Not joining in the discussion is a valid choice. No one is being forced to discuss anything they don't want to discuss, or do anything they don't want to do. But does that mean that the discussion shouldn't even be had?

The paragraph this^ is in response to was in response to you describing what you got out of going back to read through old posts. I was trying to say that I haven’t actually seen you say anything (yet) that I feel like I haven’t noticed in the many, many hours I’ve spent of my life obsessing over whether or not to write someone off- I agree with a quite a bit of it- but I’m not even going to begin discussing it in this thread. Sometimes the line between “addressing the person you’re directly responding to” vs. “addressing everyone at the table” gets blurry here. It was a statement from me to you, explaining why I would not be joining the discussion.

Yes, my opinion is that it seems enabling. To go beyond simply justifying the act of backing away and deeply examining it why it happens (the internal processes that take place)- where people can see and incorporate that information for fodder to get even more manipulative about it- seems like a very bad idea to me. But that doesn't mean I think my opinion should dictate the actions of others, it's just my opinion.

Okay, we can call it an epiphany. That works for me. And, yes, I'm enthusiastic about what I learned, and I can see how that enthusiasm can look like pushiness. And I broke my own rule of not generalizing to all INFJs several times, for which I apologize. I'll keep my posts to my own experiences and stop generalizing from now on. But, if I'm pushing for others to follow me, it seems that some of them have had no qualms about pushing back. So, I'm not sure that there's a problem here. Is pushing for a different kind of discussion against forum rules? No one is being forced to read my posts, and perhaps there are people who are interested in what I have to say, the way I'm saying it. I would hope that I'm not being told that my pov is no longer welcome just because it's changed or makes some people uncomfortable.

@bolded: yeah. That's part of it, but there was something else. I really should have just PMed you instead of responding in the thread. I posted in the thread because I know I wasn’t alone in having a bad reaction to the initial post, but there are questions I had to leave out since it was public. It might have cleared some things up if I’d PMed instead.

But if that post was entirely about a specific kind of “doorslam” that happens because an INFJ can’t handle unflattering information- and it wasn’t insinuating that all/most doorslams (in the broader sense) happen because INFJs can’t handle unflattering information (regardless of what ‘story’ they’re giving themselves/rationalizing…..and other INFJs should realize that too and own it to improve the quality of their lives)- then it’s a moot point anyway.
 

the state i am in

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"doorslamming" if it is a thing is simply a self-protective way of super awkwardly maintaining your own personal boundaries. the excessiveness of it is the result of not trusting yourself to hear your own needs.

i've noticed many other types do it too. at it's most categorical, it's kind of an Fe thing. meanwhile, Fi avoid, and can be self-righteous in doing so, just the same. we all use stories to manipulate the truth too. i mean, i see relationship carnage in a lot of pasts. choosing to cut ties, and dramatizing that process to the point that one can no longer really hear what the fuck is going on because they can't hear their own feelings, clenched as they are, gripping in anger so that their hard outer shell simply reflects back every possible aggression.

i do think e4 tends to heighten the fuck you i'm disconnecting doorslam quality. of the withdrawn triad, that'd be the one.
 

yeghor

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I can't say if the thread itself started with that definition, but, as for the discussion revolving around [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION], that was the definition of doorslam that he was trying to discuss. It took until now for that to be determined because of a lot of confusion and misunderstanding. And since [MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION] brought that part of the discussion back to life, that was the definition that made the most sense to discuss.

Your mentioning me somehow made me feel like: :D



I think the distinction between what doorslam meant to those who have been vehemently condemning it and what it meant to those who have been using it as a last resort to bail out of oppressive relationship has recently been highlighted after the thread restarted (starting from page 105 or 106 I believe)...

This I believe stemmed from those who were condemning it not articulating clearly what their experience of doorslam had exactly been like in the thread and deflecting questions, by INFJs requesting further clarification from them, due to misconstruing them as an attempt to invalidate their arguments...

So I do not think I brought a different discussion back to life...I do not understand what the problem is exactly here (regarding what should be discussed and what should not) either...and the need to act defensive...
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Rather than pull the trigger on this, can I just give you a hug instead?

:hug:
Thank you for offering Peace, baby. :wubbie:

Actually when I did get triggered with dismissal and scared the shit out of everyone someone accused me of seeming possessed by Marilyn Manson, so there is always the curiosity factor to what happens when you push the big red button.
Off topic - but you don't do the above (what was presented in Z Buck's quote.) I mean, I'll happily pull any trigger anyone wants me to in this thread but I can't help you on this one.

To suggest this isn't somewhat common though with regards to NFJs...this I'm not ready to sign off on. And I don't necessarily think it has anything to do with flattery.
To suggest it isn't somewhat common with regards to human beings…this I'm not ready to sign off on.
 

Starry

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To suggest it isn't somewhat common with regards to human beings…this I'm not ready to sign off on.

If you are referring specifically to what Z Buck presented (minus the 'flattery' factor) then I strongly disagree. That is not how xxxPs structure information in their brains in an effort to navigate the world...that is quite distinctly xxxJ. Whether that structure leads to doorslamming...this I do not believe.
 

the state i am in

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If you are referring specifically to what Z Buck presented (minus the 'flattery' factor) then I strongly disagree. That is not how xxxPs structure information in their brains in an effort to navigate the world...that is quite distinctly xxxJ. Whether that structure leads to doorslamming...this I do not believe.

what exactly are you referring to? i think zbuck is stating that the flattering/unflattering aspect is central in the critique as a whole. that infjs only accept flattery, and they reject unflattery, blaming the other person and doorslamming them as a result.

so to me, it sounds like the question is whether infjs automatically, always, in any circumstance in which they are not seen as positive, interpret that as if they are being attacked. and that they do this uniquely, based on how their cognition works in general. that doesn't make much sense.

i know plenty of ep and ip types who jump to feeling attacked rather quickly. i notice that 4, 6, and 8 are all kind of finicky, mercurial, and difficult. they make up like, the dark triad. but 4 is especially unique in terms of withdrawing, which is think is kind of what we're going for here. and you see 4s in ep (3w4), ip (4w3, 4w5, 5w4), ij (4w5, 5w4), ej (3w4). i think 4 is the best to focus on because there would be more of a tendency for a withdrawn type to withdraw, but this would depend on other factors. for instance, say, how 4 expresses itself in conjunction with 3 in 3w4 which presents more of a borderline personality disorder disintegration pattern than with a 5 that has more of a paranoid disintegration pattern.

i also know that in the past, i've definitely been one of those sensitive people. i've cut ties, altho unlike many others, i've never done so permanently. but i've also gone through huge phases of withdrawal in general, so the line does not seem entirely clear to me. the angry part of me, the resentful part of me, might feel some blame towards them for "making me feel this way," (which is setting a person up not to own their own feelings), but in general there was just a lot of my own issues and repressed emotions that i didn't know how to truly see, truly feel, and truly work with directly.

but it, "doorslamming," has so much to do with so many things. i've seen it in less snarky but equally nose-up, hypercritical versions with an enfp so/sp friend of mine. an infp 9w1 sx/sp. an enfj 1w2 sx/so. maybe a connection to 1 is part of it, this sense of self-righteousness that accompanies the decision to cut ties in a clearly ego-mediated, self-protective move. for me it had to do with self-shaming that compounded what i was feeling while, at the same time, locating not only the judgment but the feeling itself outside of me, in the other person. and then not recognizing how to cleanse myself of that, so carrying it around and having that feel like i was being suffocated by this person's influence on my world, because i did not know how to own my own feelings and both observe and work with them directly, to really dive into them so i can release the energy they have wound together within me. but if your tendency is to disconnect because if you observe yourself, your self-shaming tendency will likely run amok, you just create a kind of neurotic split where you don't truly know how to be with your own emotions and own them as yours. without doing this, there's no way of using these emotions as information that can help lead you back to a deeper understanding of your own needs.

finally, a lot of the time the "doorslamming" witch hunt thing comes from people who are obviously hurting and not really sure how to own their own shit either. "doorslamming" as an accusation or evidence of character flaw is completely unproductive and a really obvious lack of empathy, which is generally both a result of and an influence that makes more likely these kinds of relational splits in the first place. accusing someone of being childish or condemning them as "self-destructive" and "selfish" for leaving or needing to take responsibility for their own boundaries and/or personal space isn't a really fair move to make. but as a communication breakdown problem, it's complicated to assess. it's only realistic and productive to acknowledge that in protective mode, the ego can't really do a great job of empathizing and taking on others' realities. that's a fact that transcends type. the conflicts we are discussing are a result of that fact more than a result of the types themselves simply conflicting out of their own inherent nature (and nfp/nfj can be difficult when trust is lost because we don't have a lot of cognitive common ground, even if our values and ego-types are often deeply overlapping).
 

the state i am in

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i mean, i love cognitive functions as much as anyone, but to me they are helpful for socio-cognitive things. trying to pin down the nature of shared experience, what we can observe, the modality of information for each other, etc. concpetualizing the structure of information. and as information about ourselves i do think it has a predictive quality for who we are and how we work, sure, especially in terms of systems and concrete tasks in career and whatnot.

but ultimately, in relational conflict, a more psychosocial, psychoanalytic, ego focus is more helpful to understand personal differences that result in different needs and the patterns that emerge that reciprocally reinforce and result from those needs. especially in terms of how we interpret them. these are more helpful in terms of the "who someone is" humanistically, what their relationship with themselves is likely to be like.
 
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