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[Fi] Fi 101

Amargith

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Aw, C'MON!

What is love?


Origin, source of maintenance, nature and character of the object.


Is it different for different types? Is there a core element that is universal? Does it reside in the person or in the person's expressions or somewhere else, an abstract plane removed from, say, sex, maybe?

No, really. There's a lot of discussion on this board--A LOT!--about interactions. So... what is love?




It seemed like a good 101 question, and now I want to know.


Plus, it's a macro-question, a whole of person thing, and discussing it the functions will come into play somewhere and... something about being human... plus everyone's allowed to get away with idiosyncratic definitions, I suppose, and I guess that'll show something about functions. Or something.

Kalach, this is a very good question, and actually worthy of it's own thread I think. I fear it might lead us too far off though in this thread. I would do it injustice if I attempted to keep the answer minimalistic and to answer it the way it is meant to would lead to debate and reflection (always a good thing imo) but it might interfere with what is going on here already. I strongly suggest you make this topic it's very own thread, it has a lot of potential :)
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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Arn't you afraid that Fi makes you vulnerbale to manipulation and/or addiction ?
 

Amargith

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Arn't you afraid that Fi makes you vulnerbale to manipulation and/or addiction ?

*smiles*

Not anymore. Been there, done that. I learned to straddle the edge...though it's tempting at times. Also, the reason I know this, is because I spent time trying to understand myself. I know my buttons, better than most people out there do. Push them at your own risk...coz that means I get a carte blanche to do the same with you :smooch:

Before you guys forced me to think about this stuff, I genuinly thought I did this out of altruism. And it does feel like that, and the effect is still the same as in altruism. But it's true, I do get a reward out of this, just not one many people seem to understand as a valid one. So how many people really are going to catch on that that's how to manipulate me? An exception are Fe-users who are good at guilttripping. I used to be sensitive to that. Now I just see that blow coming and it has the opposite effect. Some take a while, but most catch on that that's the wrong button to push :D

Also, I'm sure some people manipulate me. IN fact, at certain times, I *allow* myself to be manipulated by others, when i see it's really important to them. But then everyone gets manipulated. It's part of how we work. I don't see the point in getting paranoid over that.
 

Seymour

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Arn't you afraid that Fi makes you vulnerbale to manipulation and/or addiction ?

I agree with Amargith... we can be addiction prone, especially as a means to escape intensity. Sometimes, we would prefer to not have to go emotional spelunking and just bury our more unpleasant emotions. Not all our techniques for dealing with our emotional sensitivity are healthy. For example, we can over invest in our inner fantasy worlds even without the aid of drugs or alcohol.

As far as manipulation... I think there's a difference between manipulation and persuasion. Mature Fe users (and others) use persuasion that acknowledges the other's right to consciously decide. Persuasion doesn't damage trust.

Manipulation is more underhanded and uses the emotions of the other to subvert their decision making process. Empathy can be fooled, so that does leave us open in that respect.

On the other hand, being highly aware of one's own emotional state comes in handy. If I'm being guilt-tripped, I'm pretty aware of the sudden increase in guilt and where it is coming from. I also find anger and irritation coming out of nowhere to be a clue that subtle manipulation is in process, often before I'm consciously aware of the manipulation.

Still, people get manipulated. We all, regardless of type, tend to think we are unusually perceptive and better-than-average judges of character. Clearly we can't all be right.
 

Scott N Denver

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Fi doesnt mean that we see everything through rose-colored glasses and believe that everyone is an altruistic saint who would never hurt anyone. I think many of us are much more in tune with others emotional states and intentions, and hence are MORE likely to notice others attempts at manipulation.
 

Wonkavision

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Originally Posted by Pitseleh:

From everything I have learned about Fi is it's about individuality, personal/self valuations/ moral codes/ what one believes, and it feels emotions in gradients and feels things deeply. To some outsiders, it can come off "very selfish and self-centered" but it can also come off as kind and caring.

Yes, that's basically all there is to it.

But all this Fi talk is interesting mental diarrhea discussion, nonetheless. ;)
 

BlueScreen

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OK, here's my honest observation. Forgive me if it sounds hostile because that is not my intention.

When reviewing the "Fi is" thread this is the picture that struck me as most accurate about Fi:

Happy.jpg


And to be honest, this pic disturbed me at the same time I felt it to be the most accurate. Those emo pics I was like OK, alright.

What is wrong with looking at potential for change rather than being stuck in and celebrating the emo? I look at that and see a group of people who are sad, and one who is willing to break the mould and change it. Does Fe look to make this last person sad to complete the set?
 

William K

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Fi doesnt mean that we see everything through rose-colored glasses and believe that everyone is an altruistic saint who would never hurt anyone. I think many of us are much more in tune with others emotional states and intentions, and hence are MORE likely to notice others attempts at manipulation.

I would think that Fi-users would also be rather good at 'manipulating' others. After all, that is the 'thing' that we use to convince others. We are not as proficient in the logic and cold, hard facts, but we do have to make you see and feel things the same way we do. And that may come off to the other side as trying to manipulate their feelings. Being on the same page with us more or less means either sharing or at the least understanding our values and why we feel that way.
 
G

Glycerine

Guest
Boys, nobody says you have to be here. Considering the replies this thread already generated, I'd say there's still a need to debate this, though I admit it's been debated to death already. Let's hope that this time we get further again. This is kinda like figuring out the grammar rules to a language. Ask a native speaker to teach you their language and they'll struggle coz it comes naturally to them and they don't know the rules really. It takes time and trial and error to actually put those together. So let's bear that in mind, plz.

I'm a female, silly. :) I actually think I understand Fi better than Fe, oddly enough. Fi seems a lot more straightforward to me than Fe. I can't relate to most Fe definitions about social protocol. It's like :huh:.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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Fe-users are guides and preventors. Fi-users are solvers and cataclysts, imo.

Cataclysts? Bringers of the cataclysm? I agree.

Also, the discussion in this thread rocks. :nice:


The idea of (EJ) Fe and (EP) Fi as complementary is illuminating.
 

wolfy

awsm
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What do you perceive as the main differences between how SFP and NFP express Fi?
 

BlueScreen

Fail 2.0
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Question 121 (Noigmn's ENFPQ test)

Assume:
- You are ENTP or INFJ
- Fe is to Fi as Te is to Ti
- Ti is to Te as Fi is to Fe

Working analogically:
i) What would an Fi perspective be and what would it try to achieve?

ii) What would a Te perspective be and what would it try to achieve?

iii) What traits of Fe and Ti would annoy an FiTe and cause conflict?
 

OrangeAppled

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What do you perceive as the main differences between how SFP and NFP express Fi?

Well, obviously one is expressed through Se and one through Ne. And now I am going to ramble aimlessly...

I think Se is more focused on the immediate moment, using the 5 senses to channel their imagination into tangible expressions. Even in their altruistic endeavors they seem more hands-on and take-action, with a view to immediate results. They seem to relate their feelings more directly to experience which makes them less... "romantic" shall we say; but there's also less extrapolation to understand foreign feelings. Probably why they don't get the "healer" stereotype INFPs get.

In some ways, I think their Fi may be more difficult to express, because Fi is rather abstract in itself, but Se isn't, and the ISFP has to reconcile the two. The INFP has an abstract outlet to use. I think this encourages a kind of innovation in ISFPs that often leads to so many of them being original & creative artists. I also know ISFPs with "causes" like an NF, but the approach is very different - it's kind of on ground level, content to start small and work up, because Se connects to reality better. However, the ideas can be pretty noble, from my perspective. The whole "DIY" attitude has always seemed very SP to me, but maybe it's the ones I've known.

Ne is more future-oriented, and sees patterns, and forms theories/concepts/ideas with fuel from Fi (or vice verse). So INFPs tend to seek more quixotic means of expression, be it through their moral causes or creating stories to express their ideas through illustration, or maybe creating literal illustrations :D. Because the INFP does extrapolate their feelings and apply it metaphorically, it gives the feelings a universal application in the form of ideals. Theory can be trusted over experience because of this, because experience is too limited for the INFP, and it always falls short of this vision of perfection. That's where the idealistic mindset comes in.

INFPs are less action-oriented, but may take action after their ideas have incubated for awhile; and they're more likely to accomplish their objective by simply communicating their ideas, because the idea is an end unto itself. The long term view makes the INFP feel that expression is enough, and again, localized action can feel limiting to someone who is dreaming in such large format. We still deal best in the background, one-on-one, because we are individual-oriented and reaching people as individuals makes sense to us, as opposed to Fe which seems to be more skilled at influencing a group (and I mean that positively, okay Fe people?).

I also made some comments in a past thread about the differences between an INFP and an ISFP visual artist. Generally, INFPs may tend to be more conceptual & spend more time theorizing how they'll do it than simply doing it. ISFPs sometimes seem to let the expression reveal itself, by becoming absorbed in the physical creative process. That's my shaky theory, and no one really denied it at the time :D. I think there is a not a clear line, because I actually do both, but a tendency can say a lot.
 

Amargith

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Damn, Kalach, you quoted the one sentence I wanted to change :D

Yes, I do believe NFPs act like cataclysts and NFJs as...well almost, herders and keepers. We both guide and solve in our own way. They'll provide workable fixes to keep things going smooth, sort out stuff on the fly, to keep the work going, and guide people around big issues to make sure they don't get sucked into it, to keep them safe.

Me, personally, I'll guide you through the big issues instead of around and get to the bottom of them with you, so you can solve it yourself. So you have the tools to deal with it if it ever would occur again. Or, for that matter, so you can make sure it doesn't happen again. To show you that mirror inside so you can see who you are and hopefully discover all that you can be.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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There are rules to it yes :)
And, the benefit is, you can use them on anyone, they're called feedback rules , and they make communication between any number of types easier when observed.

Heh, it's ironic that you mention feedback rules, because feedback is the very issue I have with Fi. Namely I don't get enough feedback. Personally I loooooove feedback. I'm not sure if anyone else thrives on receiving feedback as much as I do, because I'm pretty clueless without it. :)

So an example of what I'm talking about, if I've just come out of a movie and say something like, "I see what message the director was trying to convey here, but I don't think he communicated it effectively. Take this scene where he did this...." Now if an xxFJ type actually loved the movie we just saw, they'd say, "You're so wrong!" And then we'd talk about it until we could both understand each other's viewpoint. With an xxFP they'd often just keep their feelings to themself, but I'd lose points on the secret scorecard in their head. As time goes by I'm not even aware that I'm ever doing anything that bothers them, but I just keep losing points and the scorecard never really goes away. It's because I get so little feedback. How do I get more feedback from Fi?
 

BlueScreen

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Heh, it's ironic that you mention feedback rules, because feedback is the very issue I have with Fi. Namely I don't get enough feedback. Personally I loooooove feedback. I'm not sure if anyone else thrives on receiving feedback as much as I do, because I'm pretty clueless without it. :)

Yeh, this is something I've had to consciously try to be less crap at. I'm not sure if it is a trait for all Fi types, but I know with ENFPs I go a hell of a lot of unspoken communication, unfinished sentences, etc. Sometimes if I think the message is getting there, or even if I'm feeling lazy, I only give the parts I think the other person needs to get on the same page. It's not like the other parts aren't there to say, Fi just seems to go by importance rather than any logical completeness. So sometimes most important comes first, then if it's not clear a bit more elaboration, then a bit more, etc. There is that ENP drive to achieve as much as possible with as little work as possible.
 

William K

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How do I get more feedback from Fi?

Make sure they understand that you want their point of view on something for your own benefit/use and that you are not going to judge them based on it. And then thank them and tell them you really appreciate their feedback.
 

Amargith

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Yup, remove potential judgement. Most of us value the connection we have with you over some silly topic such as a movie. If you can indicate that you won't shoot a person for having another opinion, that will do a lot already. *points at feedback rules*

Try listing not only what you thought was bad, but also the good points of the movie, showing that you're not just tearing it down just for the heck of it, but also are willing to make a balanced judgement.

The thing is..if you are to judge a movie that harshly and completley trash it, I make a mental note, especially if I don't know you that well yet. You're that harsh on a movie already? Makes me wonder how you'll think of me. How you focus on the flaws instead of the positives. Makes me feel uncomfortable to be near you, coz it means that my flaws will always come first in your opinion, and you won't like me. Afterall, it's not like you were able to enjoy the movie either. This is a subconscious process btw, that gets triggered only after observing this behavior, indicating a pattern. I reserve these kinda conclusions for when I'm absolutely sure as I like toi give people the benefit of the doubt.

As for my reaction to your movie-rant, I personally will automatically play devils advocate, if I feel comfortable with you. You say you hated the movie for this and this and this reason? I'll agree with you on those points but automatically list the things I found really good, in essence trying to redeem the movie for you. Why? Coz I have a need to value everyone and this movie was made by someone who put a lot of effort in this probably. I consider it cheap to tear someone elses work down without presenting your own to be criticized. Therefore I will always want you to show some appreciation for someone at least trying what you didn't even dare to go near.
 
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